I've been at a school where bad teachers would get renewed over and over again, even after multiple complaints about their behaviour and failing to properly teach the curriculum, much to the chagrin of their students, the parents, and their colleagues.
Then again I've also worked at a school where the HoS was a bit too keen to fire perfectly good teachers after a singular parent complained.
What have been your experiences with non-renewals and terminations at your schools?
Obviously, this question doesn't really apply to schools in countries where it's nearly impossible to be fired, like some (or most) countries in Western Europe - not an ideal situation either imo.
Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
My previous school was in WE and there were definitely some teachers that should be let go but will probably be there till they retirement. I read a lot about schools in WE not being great because it has a lot of dead wood preventing it from improving.
My current school does sometimes let teachers go who don't fit or underperform and then fail to improve after receiving two talks about this. I think it's healthy that your job isn't guaranteed and receiving two warnings you receive before you are told you won't be getting a new contract seems fair.
My current school does sometimes let teachers go who don't fit or underperform and then fail to improve after receiving two talks about this. I think it's healthy that your job isn't guaranteed and receiving two warnings you receive before you are told you won't be getting a new contract seems fair.
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
Going by friends at top tier Asian schools it seems they are good at hiring the right teachers and saying goodbye to the hires that fail or stop to perform. It helps if you get hundreds of applications of course.
There are exceptions though.
A friend at NIST Bangkok said his colleague was blindsided though and asked to look for another job. I appreciate my school at least gives you ample warning so you can step up your game.
Friend at Taipei American said they had some strange unorthodox hires in the past that worked out very well and they rarely have to let go of staff but only because everyone performs well. Taipei European has three or so reviews with mentions of a specific bad HOD -also saw him mentioned on Reddit as being toxic- so they seem very hesitant to let bad teachers/HODs go.
At IS Manila you never feel like your job is safe from what I've heard.
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How come I can't edit my previous post?
In the past I was able to edit a post.
There are exceptions though.
A friend at NIST Bangkok said his colleague was blindsided though and asked to look for another job. I appreciate my school at least gives you ample warning so you can step up your game.
Friend at Taipei American said they had some strange unorthodox hires in the past that worked out very well and they rarely have to let go of staff but only because everyone performs well. Taipei European has three or so reviews with mentions of a specific bad HOD -also saw him mentioned on Reddit as being toxic- so they seem very hesitant to let bad teachers/HODs go.
At IS Manila you never feel like your job is safe from what I've heard.
----
How come I can't edit my previous post?
In the past I was able to edit a post.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
Coimbra wrote:
> How come I can't edit my previous post?
> In the past I was able to edit a post.
You can only edit (or delete) your post for a few minutes after posting. After that it's permanent and you'll have to live with whatever you wrote.
> How come I can't edit my previous post?
> In the past I was able to edit a post.
You can only edit (or delete) your post for a few minutes after posting. After that it's permanent and you'll have to live with whatever you wrote.
Response
My concerns are first, the IT thats promoted (HOD) on the basis of being married to someone in leadership who has no real edu background, and second the IT thats dismissed (or appointed) based on unrelated non-edu criteria, like sharing a hobby. In the case of dismissal the IT thats non-renewed because someone in leadership or on staff disapproves of something in their personal life.
Every unfairly retained or dismissed IT seems to have a group of proponents and group of opposition. IE life is just an extension of JHS and SHS drama. Everyone talks about everyone else.
@Coimbra
You have 5 minutes to edit your post after posting. After that your post can not be modified or edited.
Every unfairly retained or dismissed IT seems to have a group of proponents and group of opposition. IE life is just an extension of JHS and SHS drama. Everyone talks about everyone else.
@Coimbra
You have 5 minutes to edit your post after posting. After that your post can not be modified or edited.
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
Sometimes schools can be too quick to fire teachers. They need to have in place the support for them to try to improve, and really firing should only be as a last resort - where all attempts at getting the teacher to improve have failed and there's no real other action.
Equally, though, I've seen situations where, while it's easy enough to fire expat staff, local staff are much more difficult. This has led to underperformance by those staff (they know that, almost whatever they do, they're not going to be sacked) and this can start to cause issues with other staff who are working hard, and also resentment resulting in staff turnover. As a result, your good staff leave (because they can) and your poor staff stay.
Equally, though, I've seen situations where, while it's easy enough to fire expat staff, local staff are much more difficult. This has led to underperformance by those staff (they know that, almost whatever they do, they're not going to be sacked) and this can start to cause issues with other staff who are working hard, and also resentment resulting in staff turnover. As a result, your good staff leave (because they can) and your poor staff stay.
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
AISR in KSA fired dozens of teachers in September, and almost every other teacher who was up for renewal was put on a probationary, 1 year contract (which means no signing bonuses or raises). If anyone was wondering why there were 18+ advertised jobs on Search, that's why.
The fired teachers were given no write ups, evaluations, or warnings. When this was brought up at a faculty council meeting, the superintendent said the school had the right to fire teachers at any time, for any reason, as this was the way it's done in all international schools.
It has tanked the morale of this year's new teachers. Many of us are already thinking this is a 2-and-out place now.
The fired teachers were given no write ups, evaluations, or warnings. When this was brought up at a faculty council meeting, the superintendent said the school had the right to fire teachers at any time, for any reason, as this was the way it's done in all international schools.
It has tanked the morale of this year's new teachers. Many of us are already thinking this is a 2-and-out place now.
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buffalofan
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:08 pm
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
I've normally seen non-renewal done early on in the school year, around the time letters of intent are issued. Seems to work out best for both parties that way. Where it gets messy is if it's one half of a teaching couple being non-renewed as then the other half is essentially being fired for no reason.
Reply
@buffalofan
What exactly do you expect these ISs to do, keep a failing IT on because of couplehood?
These problems occur because one IT in the couple is an actual IT and the other one (typically the failing one) got a certificate or a credential without having to do very much and possess a mediocre level of experience if any at all. They did that because it was how they made the coin and the comp work and sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, natural talent can compensate for a lack of experience, and leaders are guilty of being overly hopeful sometimes but what should they do. Continue to suffer an IT who clearly doesnt belong in a classroom or outright dismiss both of them.
What exactly do you expect these ISs to do, keep a failing IT on because of couplehood?
These problems occur because one IT in the couple is an actual IT and the other one (typically the failing one) got a certificate or a credential without having to do very much and possess a mediocre level of experience if any at all. They did that because it was how they made the coin and the comp work and sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, natural talent can compensate for a lack of experience, and leaders are guilty of being overly hopeful sometimes but what should they do. Continue to suffer an IT who clearly doesnt belong in a classroom or outright dismiss both of them.
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
Heliotrope wrote:
> Coimbra wrote:
> > How come I can't edit my previous post?
> > In the past I was able to edit a post.
>
> You can only edit (or delete) your post for a few minutes after posting. After that
> it's permanent and you'll have to live with whatever you wrote.
Thanks!
> Coimbra wrote:
> > How come I can't edit my previous post?
> > In the past I was able to edit a post.
>
> You can only edit (or delete) your post for a few minutes after posting. After that
> it's permanent and you'll have to live with whatever you wrote.
Thanks!
Re: Is your school too quick or too slow to not renew (or fire) teachers?
buffalofan wrote:
> I've normally seen non-renewal done early on in the school year, around the
> time letters of intent are issued. Seems to work out best for both parties
> that way.
Some schools go so early though you wonder why. I've heard principals boasting "we got all our contracts done and almost all our hiring before Christmas" without realising that, by going so early, they have tied up their posts before most teachers have made up their mind to leave, thus missing a huge pool of staff.
> I've normally seen non-renewal done early on in the school year, around the
> time letters of intent are issued. Seems to work out best for both parties
> that way.
Some schools go so early though you wonder why. I've heard principals boasting "we got all our contracts done and almost all our hiring before Christmas" without realising that, by going so early, they have tied up their posts before most teachers have made up their mind to leave, thus missing a huge pool of staff.
Reply
@expatscot
Because recruiting is a chore and the only real joy in it is crossing it off the to do list.
As to missing anything, you can go to the bakery anytime in the day and get a loaf of bread made that morning, or you can wake up early and go when its the freshest out of the oven. For many recruiters and leadership, you dont know what you dont know, and youre not missing anything you dont know. Maybe the morning bread had a better loaf available, maybe not, and maybe the loaf bought later is just fine.
Because recruiting is a chore and the only real joy in it is crossing it off the to do list.
As to missing anything, you can go to the bakery anytime in the day and get a loaf of bread made that morning, or you can wake up early and go when its the freshest out of the oven. For many recruiters and leadership, you dont know what you dont know, and youre not missing anything you dont know. Maybe the morning bread had a better loaf available, maybe not, and maybe the loaf bought later is just fine.
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @expatscot
>
> Because recruiting is a chore and the only real joy in it is crossing it
> off the to do list.
>
> As to missing anything, you can go to the bakery anytime in the day and get
> a loaf of bread made that morning, or you can wake up early and go when its
> the freshest out of the oven. For many recruiters and leadership, you dont
> know what you dont know, and youre not missing anything you dont know.
> Maybe the morning bread had a better loaf available, maybe not, and maybe
> the loaf bought later is just fine.
Recruiting early has the added benefit of dealing with people who have decided they are leaving well in advance in my experience. There is no messing about, everyone involved knows what they want and is ready to get on with it. Additionally, if you are in a country that has a convoluted visa application process it gives a time buffer to account for that.
> @expatscot
>
> Because recruiting is a chore and the only real joy in it is crossing it
> off the to do list.
>
> As to missing anything, you can go to the bakery anytime in the day and get
> a loaf of bread made that morning, or you can wake up early and go when its
> the freshest out of the oven. For many recruiters and leadership, you dont
> know what you dont know, and youre not missing anything you dont know.
> Maybe the morning bread had a better loaf available, maybe not, and maybe
> the loaf bought later is just fine.
Recruiting early has the added benefit of dealing with people who have decided they are leaving well in advance in my experience. There is no messing about, everyone involved knows what they want and is ready to get on with it. Additionally, if you are in a country that has a convoluted visa application process it gives a time buffer to account for that.
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @expatscot
>
> Because recruiting is a chore and the only real joy in it is crossing it
> off the to do list.
Surely though that's the argument to get it right first time? If you hire someone in October, that person might - by January - have realised they could have had a better offer elsewhere. So you end up with a new start who's lacking a bit in motivation and already thinking about where they're going in two years' time, rather than being keen to get started.
> As to missing anything, you can go to the bakery anytime in the day and get
> a loaf of bread made that morning, or you can wake up early and go when its
> the freshest out of the oven. For many recruiters and leadership, you dont
> know what you dont know, and youre not missing anything you dont know.
> Maybe the morning bread had a better loaf available, maybe not, and maybe
> the loaf bought later is just fine.
Not quite sure that's the right -. But taking it further, if you arrive at the bakery too early, then you find that the baking either hasn't started or the bread that's there isn't properly baked because the oven wasn't hot enough. Too late, and the bread has gone stale or you're left with the broken ends that nobody really wants.
The main point is you want to hit the sweet spot when you have the maximum number of candidates available. Of course, the principal might not have the confidence in his own school to fight his corner for various reasons such as location, salary or whatever, and I guess in that instance a smaller pool - which is generally the less well-baked international teachers - might suit.
> @expatscot
>
> Because recruiting is a chore and the only real joy in it is crossing it
> off the to do list.
Surely though that's the argument to get it right first time? If you hire someone in October, that person might - by January - have realised they could have had a better offer elsewhere. So you end up with a new start who's lacking a bit in motivation and already thinking about where they're going in two years' time, rather than being keen to get started.
> As to missing anything, you can go to the bakery anytime in the day and get
> a loaf of bread made that morning, or you can wake up early and go when its
> the freshest out of the oven. For many recruiters and leadership, you dont
> know what you dont know, and youre not missing anything you dont know.
> Maybe the morning bread had a better loaf available, maybe not, and maybe
> the loaf bought later is just fine.
Not quite sure that's the right -. But taking it further, if you arrive at the bakery too early, then you find that the baking either hasn't started or the bread that's there isn't properly baked because the oven wasn't hot enough. Too late, and the bread has gone stale or you're left with the broken ends that nobody really wants.
The main point is you want to hit the sweet spot when you have the maximum number of candidates available. Of course, the principal might not have the confidence in his own school to fight his corner for various reasons such as location, salary or whatever, and I guess in that instance a smaller pool - which is generally the less well-baked international teachers - might suit.
Reply
@OzIsMe
I concur with the first part of your statement, there certainly is a focus effect during early recruiting allowing ISs and ITs to focus on their first choice options. Thats what early recruiting is for.
As to the second part, Im not in agreement. Given normal conditions (pandemics, armed conflict, sanctions, etc.) there is no visa process that requires 9 months to complete. If Google, Apple, Microsoft can get a visa in weeks to a few months than so can ISs.
@expatscot
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, youll go nuts as a leader if you try to predict the future or second guess fate. Nothing surprises me anymore, its a simple tenant of probability, anything that can happen has happened or will happen. You conclusion may be true, but compared to all the other alternative outcomes the IT could feel something else, could feel differently, could never know there were better, or if there were better they may or may not have gotten that offer. There is no assurance or guarantee against the affect of an IT or an IS leadership.
Thats not how bakeries work. Baking takes about 4 hours using traditional methods, a typical conventional baker in a retail (not commercial bakery running 22 hr/days) starts at about 4-5am for a 9am opening. If they dont have bread by opening then they arent opening for a serious production failure.
If youre going in the morning or anytime during the day the only stale bread will be yesterdays day olds (often sold at greatly reduced coin), because of the use of oils in traditional baking or dough conditioners and preservatives.
Burnt bread happens but rarely. Bakers know there ovens, and even in new oven a baker runs test bakes before putting it into use. However, even when something exceedingly rare happens and a batch is burned, baking time for bread in commercial (restaurant) ovens (which even retail bakeries use) is only about 30 minute (as they use fan assisted ovens), a relatively short period of time. This allows for correction and a new batch of loaves to be produced rather quickly. The long time in baking is due to dough prep in the time to allow dough to rise over two cycles, but even this time can be reduced with the use of rising agents.
While your scenarios are essentially academic and dont account for real world activity, these are all mitigated by simply going to another bakery. Much as in IE recruiting, there are multiple avenues of sourcing an applicant pool to find suitably acceptable candidates.
Thats a 'maximizer' approach, and its mostly a fallacy. You never know in advanced when you will have the largest or best available applicant pool, and lingering over it in a state of decision paralyses, is neither productive or effective.
Recruiting is an uncommon, non-daily task. Leaders spend a few hours a day over the course of a few weeks in recruiting tasks. During that time recruiting is but one task among the rest of the daily and weekly tasks a leader has to contend with. Like most tasks recruiting is just another thing that has to be done and getting it over with is the only real joy.
I concur with the first part of your statement, there certainly is a focus effect during early recruiting allowing ISs and ITs to focus on their first choice options. Thats what early recruiting is for.
As to the second part, Im not in agreement. Given normal conditions (pandemics, armed conflict, sanctions, etc.) there is no visa process that requires 9 months to complete. If Google, Apple, Microsoft can get a visa in weeks to a few months than so can ISs.
@expatscot
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, youll go nuts as a leader if you try to predict the future or second guess fate. Nothing surprises me anymore, its a simple tenant of probability, anything that can happen has happened or will happen. You conclusion may be true, but compared to all the other alternative outcomes the IT could feel something else, could feel differently, could never know there were better, or if there were better they may or may not have gotten that offer. There is no assurance or guarantee against the affect of an IT or an IS leadership.
Thats not how bakeries work. Baking takes about 4 hours using traditional methods, a typical conventional baker in a retail (not commercial bakery running 22 hr/days) starts at about 4-5am for a 9am opening. If they dont have bread by opening then they arent opening for a serious production failure.
If youre going in the morning or anytime during the day the only stale bread will be yesterdays day olds (often sold at greatly reduced coin), because of the use of oils in traditional baking or dough conditioners and preservatives.
Burnt bread happens but rarely. Bakers know there ovens, and even in new oven a baker runs test bakes before putting it into use. However, even when something exceedingly rare happens and a batch is burned, baking time for bread in commercial (restaurant) ovens (which even retail bakeries use) is only about 30 minute (as they use fan assisted ovens), a relatively short period of time. This allows for correction and a new batch of loaves to be produced rather quickly. The long time in baking is due to dough prep in the time to allow dough to rise over two cycles, but even this time can be reduced with the use of rising agents.
While your scenarios are essentially academic and dont account for real world activity, these are all mitigated by simply going to another bakery. Much as in IE recruiting, there are multiple avenues of sourcing an applicant pool to find suitably acceptable candidates.
Thats a 'maximizer' approach, and its mostly a fallacy. You never know in advanced when you will have the largest or best available applicant pool, and lingering over it in a state of decision paralyses, is neither productive or effective.
Recruiting is an uncommon, non-daily task. Leaders spend a few hours a day over the course of a few weeks in recruiting tasks. During that time recruiting is but one task among the rest of the daily and weekly tasks a leader has to contend with. Like most tasks recruiting is just another thing that has to be done and getting it over with is the only real joy.