Hi.
I'm a newbie US teacher who's been aiming for international teaching (IT) in Korea or Japan since I studied education. However, my university did not have much knowledge on IT and have actually given me conflicting info from the info in the net. I am in quite of a fit and would be grateful if I could get some advice.
My current situation:
(take rankings with a grain of salt)
- BA from top 10 university in the US, double major in biology and integrated science.
(This means I have multiple coursework in math, physics, biology and chemistry)
- MEd from top 3 education university in the US, secondary science education
(Full time student teaching for 1/2 year)
- No teaching license
- 1 year experience teaching physics & math in my current school in China. These are classes taught in English only.
(China Domestic School (DS) partnership with US DS school)
(will become 2 years at the end of this year)
Question 1: Will I be able to get a IT job in Korea or Japan for 2017?
I have no teaching license. Professors and teachers in the US would tell me that this is not a problem when getting a job in private schools. Apparently... that does not seem to be the case.
I am quite proud of my academic achievements and I realize that science and math are a high needs area. But I have no teaching license, have little teaching experience and apparently I am late in job searching. Would I still be able to get a IT job in Korea or Japan?
Question 2: What would be the best way for me to get a teaching license?
I realize I should have done this earlier but at least I should start now. I have read that the CA license is best but it does not seem I can get that now. Would the Florida route be the best choice? This is the part that is most confusing and stressful for me...
Getting a teaching license from the original state (TN) of grad school is not an option. I need to repeat an assessment that is very demanding in time, mind and effort to complete.
Question 3: I really do not like my current school. Should I still stick to the end?
The school does not keep its promises on work according to the Chinese labor law and my contract. So I feel I have a good reason to leave. I have also added a clause in my contract that says I can leave at the end of the 1st semester with 1 month prior notice to prepare for this (because last year was worse).
However, overall the work load is not that bad this year... probably. So if it really matters for my future, I could try staying.
I have very little experience on school expectations and environments since this is my first secondary education job so I would probably ask for help on this through a separate topic.
I'd be really grateful for everyone who can share their opinion/knowledge on these questions.
Also, please tell me if I'd written anything inappropriate.
Thanks.
Teaching license and applying for international teaching
Response
INQUIRES:
1) Did you complete your EPP/ITT program at your institution in TN where you completed your field experience (student teaching)? By this I mean do you meat your institutions definition of a program completer?
2) Is the assessment you need to retake and complete the PRAXIS exams for your areas of endorsement?
BACKGROUND:
I am not surprised your education department was ill prepared to advise you regarding IE. The vast majority of EPP/ITT programs are solely focused on LEA meds/peds and licensing issues. Most of them dont provide much in the form of operational practicalities in regard to employment and practice issues. Many of them pass off those issues to the institutional career services office, but this is an issue in many academic departments at a vast number of institutions. These career services departments have little understanding how recruiting in IE functions. Ive heard of career service officers who advised functional resumes for an IE recruiting fair among other problematic advise.
Do you need a professional educator credential is a question we get often enough. The answer like many on this forum is that it depends. On one end of the spectrum there are ISs at the bottom tier in hardship regions that cant attract credentialed candidates. On that same end of the spectrum you also have ISs that are debatable if they are ISs at all. There is a very narrow margin between ESOL EAP and EP (English Program) ISs (and you can substitute a number of languages for English), and to that end an EP and a DS/IS.
Most ISs are private/independent institutions, there is a sizable DS market that has various international programs from municipal ISs to international academies.
One factor is how you define "need". There are a number of ways of defining this, is it a legal requirement for immigration or a requirement for practicing the profession. Is it a requirement for an ISs accreditation, or a mandate of ownership, and thus policy.
Another factor is how you define a credential, in a number of regions authorization for providing KS/K-12 instructional services may be a degree in education or some other academic qualification. In others some form of registration is the formal recognition of authorization to practice.
In general private/independent ISs have greater latitude in hiring who they want regardless of qualifications. If a candidate meets the visa and immigration requirements, an IS doesnt need accreditation, it can hire who it wants. Many ISs though, most of them have higher standards. Either their accreditation requires training and preparation standards or the LEA or NEA requires a credential to practice the profession regardless of the setting.
The only universities that have marketable utility in terms of status are Ivys, if youve been to one of the global Ivys you can teach without a professional credential in a larger concentration of ISs. There are plenty of ISs that would rather have an IT from Harvard than a credential, and thats reasonable, many accrediting agencies and organizations allow some percentage of the faculty to be uncredentialed and maintain their accreditation. There are ISs that would make that appointment.
RESPONSES:
In general the bar to entry in IE is two years post credentialing experience. Your current experience due to your DS/AS affiliation may qualify. What would likely happen is an IS that wants you will give you the steps to make the deal, and ISs that are more selective wont. Some will not consider you eligible for appointment. Regardless SA has an intern program, that would give you access to the jobs database and you can attend the BOS fair if you were so inclined.
The market in SK (S. Korea) has a very small middle tier. You have a few ISs that are 1st tier and then the rest are along the third tier, you can divide them well between those ISs that serve an international population and those that are primarily independent/private DSs for host nationals.
JP (Japan) is the most desirable region in Asia, lots of people want to get into JP, and there are a lot of ETs who are fully qualified professional educators who are ETs who would be interested in an IS appointment.
Your Ivy degree would be more marketable in SK than JP, a higher number of JP students and families in DSs want to stay local.
In general early recruiting starts in November and peak recruiting starts in January and ends in February. Depending on your job search strategy its not too late. Its not unreasonable to register for a premium agency such as SA or ISS, would be unlikely to accept you without a professional credential. You may be able to explain you completed an EPP/ITT program and with your Masters and Ivy affiliation they may rep you. If you were more a DIY type you could join TIE with a few minutes. COIS is also an option you could have done quickly depending on how fast your references are received and you can also monitor TES immediately. At this time ISs are more focusing on leadership vacancies than IT vacancies (though those are being posted as well).
My inquires at the beginning of my post are very important in responding to your questions. The two problems are as follows:
If the PRAXIS is the assessment you cant complete in TN, you will have a lot of problems in the US. Many jurisdictional authorities have some form of validated assessment requirement either the state uses their own assessment or they use the PRAXIS, and these exams are for the most part correlated to one another. If you cant pass the PRAXIS your going to have similar issues with any of the REAs.
Reviewing the US options:
FL; requires the FTCE. This is the JLA (Jurisdictional Licensing Authority) used for Teach Ready.
D.C; requires the PRAXIS. This is the JLA for Teach Now.
NJ; would require the PRAXIS for even the CE.
CA; requires the CSET
TX; requires the TeXas
UT; requires the PRAXIS
CT; requires the PRAXIS
At this point the best option would be HI. You can apply for the HI entry level credential. There is no exam requirement, only an exam option. Your Bachelors will meet the basic skills requirement and your Bachelors/Masters will meet the content competency requirement. This is a three year non-renewable credential. You will need to complete three years of teaching experience and then be able to transition the credential to the professional credential, which is valid for 5 years and is renewable, without having to complete any testing requirements. The other option available to you would be to apply for QTS based on the HI entry level credential. QTS is a lifetime credential, you could then choose to renew the HI professional credential or allow the HI entry level credential to expire.
This pathway would depend on your EPP/ITT institution verifying that you completed their program.
If this isnt an option for you, you will be highly unlikely to obtain a US credential directly without the completion of a EPP/ITT program, and many of those regions will require an assessment such as the PRAXIS to complete their EPP/ITT program. At this point you would likely need to pursue a credentialing program outside the US.
There are several options, QTS from the UK is the most recognized option. There are a number of ways to obtain QTS, including academic programs at universities that award a PGCE. You would have to complete induction to obtain full QTS, though NQTS would be fine for IE applications. Another option is the school direct program which places you with a mentor in a LEA DS in the UK, math and science are in such high demand you could get a visa and invitation. Another option is the assessment only option which uses a portfolio process to obtain QTS. Another option is a PGCEi which doesnt award QTS, and with your current academic qualifications wouldnt offer much utility beyond what you already have completed.
In regards to your issue of remaining at your current IS, what would you do if you left? Would you stay in China and teach something else, maybe ESOL or would you leave and return to the US, and what would you do there? Its very late and there are still a few last minute vacancies for this year and some cover vacancies for January.
If you stay you will have two advantages, you will have 2 full years of potentially acceptable experience towards your HI credential and will have two years of potentially acceptable experience towards meeting the bar for IS entry. This is in addition to your references, and not having to explain pulling a runner. It will also demonstrate you can handle the stresses of overseas living.
If the experience isnt accepted, and your reference wouldnt be worth much, or wouldnt be positive, only if you needed the coin would it be worth staying. If your compensation is around RMB20K than you can do as well as an ET in ESOL. There are a number of ISs in China that still have vacancies.
1) Did you complete your EPP/ITT program at your institution in TN where you completed your field experience (student teaching)? By this I mean do you meat your institutions definition of a program completer?
2) Is the assessment you need to retake and complete the PRAXIS exams for your areas of endorsement?
BACKGROUND:
I am not surprised your education department was ill prepared to advise you regarding IE. The vast majority of EPP/ITT programs are solely focused on LEA meds/peds and licensing issues. Most of them dont provide much in the form of operational practicalities in regard to employment and practice issues. Many of them pass off those issues to the institutional career services office, but this is an issue in many academic departments at a vast number of institutions. These career services departments have little understanding how recruiting in IE functions. Ive heard of career service officers who advised functional resumes for an IE recruiting fair among other problematic advise.
Do you need a professional educator credential is a question we get often enough. The answer like many on this forum is that it depends. On one end of the spectrum there are ISs at the bottom tier in hardship regions that cant attract credentialed candidates. On that same end of the spectrum you also have ISs that are debatable if they are ISs at all. There is a very narrow margin between ESOL EAP and EP (English Program) ISs (and you can substitute a number of languages for English), and to that end an EP and a DS/IS.
Most ISs are private/independent institutions, there is a sizable DS market that has various international programs from municipal ISs to international academies.
One factor is how you define "need". There are a number of ways of defining this, is it a legal requirement for immigration or a requirement for practicing the profession. Is it a requirement for an ISs accreditation, or a mandate of ownership, and thus policy.
Another factor is how you define a credential, in a number of regions authorization for providing KS/K-12 instructional services may be a degree in education or some other academic qualification. In others some form of registration is the formal recognition of authorization to practice.
In general private/independent ISs have greater latitude in hiring who they want regardless of qualifications. If a candidate meets the visa and immigration requirements, an IS doesnt need accreditation, it can hire who it wants. Many ISs though, most of them have higher standards. Either their accreditation requires training and preparation standards or the LEA or NEA requires a credential to practice the profession regardless of the setting.
The only universities that have marketable utility in terms of status are Ivys, if youve been to one of the global Ivys you can teach without a professional credential in a larger concentration of ISs. There are plenty of ISs that would rather have an IT from Harvard than a credential, and thats reasonable, many accrediting agencies and organizations allow some percentage of the faculty to be uncredentialed and maintain their accreditation. There are ISs that would make that appointment.
RESPONSES:
In general the bar to entry in IE is two years post credentialing experience. Your current experience due to your DS/AS affiliation may qualify. What would likely happen is an IS that wants you will give you the steps to make the deal, and ISs that are more selective wont. Some will not consider you eligible for appointment. Regardless SA has an intern program, that would give you access to the jobs database and you can attend the BOS fair if you were so inclined.
The market in SK (S. Korea) has a very small middle tier. You have a few ISs that are 1st tier and then the rest are along the third tier, you can divide them well between those ISs that serve an international population and those that are primarily independent/private DSs for host nationals.
JP (Japan) is the most desirable region in Asia, lots of people want to get into JP, and there are a lot of ETs who are fully qualified professional educators who are ETs who would be interested in an IS appointment.
Your Ivy degree would be more marketable in SK than JP, a higher number of JP students and families in DSs want to stay local.
In general early recruiting starts in November and peak recruiting starts in January and ends in February. Depending on your job search strategy its not too late. Its not unreasonable to register for a premium agency such as SA or ISS, would be unlikely to accept you without a professional credential. You may be able to explain you completed an EPP/ITT program and with your Masters and Ivy affiliation they may rep you. If you were more a DIY type you could join TIE with a few minutes. COIS is also an option you could have done quickly depending on how fast your references are received and you can also monitor TES immediately. At this time ISs are more focusing on leadership vacancies than IT vacancies (though those are being posted as well).
My inquires at the beginning of my post are very important in responding to your questions. The two problems are as follows:
If the PRAXIS is the assessment you cant complete in TN, you will have a lot of problems in the US. Many jurisdictional authorities have some form of validated assessment requirement either the state uses their own assessment or they use the PRAXIS, and these exams are for the most part correlated to one another. If you cant pass the PRAXIS your going to have similar issues with any of the REAs.
Reviewing the US options:
FL; requires the FTCE. This is the JLA (Jurisdictional Licensing Authority) used for Teach Ready.
D.C; requires the PRAXIS. This is the JLA for Teach Now.
NJ; would require the PRAXIS for even the CE.
CA; requires the CSET
TX; requires the TeXas
UT; requires the PRAXIS
CT; requires the PRAXIS
At this point the best option would be HI. You can apply for the HI entry level credential. There is no exam requirement, only an exam option. Your Bachelors will meet the basic skills requirement and your Bachelors/Masters will meet the content competency requirement. This is a three year non-renewable credential. You will need to complete three years of teaching experience and then be able to transition the credential to the professional credential, which is valid for 5 years and is renewable, without having to complete any testing requirements. The other option available to you would be to apply for QTS based on the HI entry level credential. QTS is a lifetime credential, you could then choose to renew the HI professional credential or allow the HI entry level credential to expire.
This pathway would depend on your EPP/ITT institution verifying that you completed their program.
If this isnt an option for you, you will be highly unlikely to obtain a US credential directly without the completion of a EPP/ITT program, and many of those regions will require an assessment such as the PRAXIS to complete their EPP/ITT program. At this point you would likely need to pursue a credentialing program outside the US.
There are several options, QTS from the UK is the most recognized option. There are a number of ways to obtain QTS, including academic programs at universities that award a PGCE. You would have to complete induction to obtain full QTS, though NQTS would be fine for IE applications. Another option is the school direct program which places you with a mentor in a LEA DS in the UK, math and science are in such high demand you could get a visa and invitation. Another option is the assessment only option which uses a portfolio process to obtain QTS. Another option is a PGCEi which doesnt award QTS, and with your current academic qualifications wouldnt offer much utility beyond what you already have completed.
In regards to your issue of remaining at your current IS, what would you do if you left? Would you stay in China and teach something else, maybe ESOL or would you leave and return to the US, and what would you do there? Its very late and there are still a few last minute vacancies for this year and some cover vacancies for January.
If you stay you will have two advantages, you will have 2 full years of potentially acceptable experience towards your HI credential and will have two years of potentially acceptable experience towards meeting the bar for IS entry. This is in addition to your references, and not having to explain pulling a runner. It will also demonstrate you can handle the stresses of overseas living.
If the experience isnt accepted, and your reference wouldnt be worth much, or wouldnt be positive, only if you needed the coin would it be worth staying. If your compensation is around RMB20K than you can do as well as an ET in ESOL. There are a number of ISs in China that still have vacancies.
Re: Teaching license and applying for international teaching
@PsyGuy
Thanks for the long and detailed response.
Responses to your questions:
1) Yes, I completed the educator preparation program (EPP) at gradschool and also did student teaching through it. I have also successfully received an MEd and thus have fully completed the program.
I only lack the teaching license because I was not able to pass the assessment and had no further chance of redoing it.
2) No, I am completely happy with taking the PRAXIS exams. In fact, I have already passed the Biology Praxis II 2 years ago (degree requirement) and am also thinking of taking physics and math if that would be beneficial for me. Plus, I guess they offer the test in China and Korea so it would relatively easy and cheap for me to take these tests.
The assessment I would need to retake in TN is called the EdTPA. It requires me to teach the same class for 2 weeks in a secondary school, obtain parental consent for video taping, video tape my lessons and write something like a 10 or 20 page - with video editing to show how I taught according to the requirements of the assessment. If I do not pass, I need to repeat the whole process again.
3) (For staying/leaving my current job)
If I left early, I was planning on just helping mum with her pharmacy in Korea (she works a lot and would appreciate the help). This would be assuming I could get some sort of job for the 2017 school year though.
But based on your advice, it seems like its better to stay.
More Questions:
1. So that means my best choices for licensure would be DC, NJ, UT, or CT. I thought CA also required an EPP in CA if I was not transfering licenses from a different state.
If I were to eventually aim for the golden CA Clear license, what route would be the best?
2. My universities are not quite Ivy... although they got me my current job. These are Northwestern and Vanderbilt (Probably gave myself away by now). If you know either of these, are they still marketable?
3. The school I am at now is most probably third tier but is partnered with a pretty reputable American School, although this partnership is very new. Whether the teaching experience is accepted as valid depends on an employer by employer basis, correct?
PsyGuy, I think I will follow your suggestions and start looking for a job through the routes you mentioned (after researching what exactly the license requirements are for). Even if I get a low tier school, I would likely enjoy Korea more than China. Japan does not seem likely so I won't keep my hopes high.
Thanks again.
Thanks for the long and detailed response.
Responses to your questions:
1) Yes, I completed the educator preparation program (EPP) at gradschool and also did student teaching through it. I have also successfully received an MEd and thus have fully completed the program.
I only lack the teaching license because I was not able to pass the assessment and had no further chance of redoing it.
2) No, I am completely happy with taking the PRAXIS exams. In fact, I have already passed the Biology Praxis II 2 years ago (degree requirement) and am also thinking of taking physics and math if that would be beneficial for me. Plus, I guess they offer the test in China and Korea so it would relatively easy and cheap for me to take these tests.
The assessment I would need to retake in TN is called the EdTPA. It requires me to teach the same class for 2 weeks in a secondary school, obtain parental consent for video taping, video tape my lessons and write something like a 10 or 20 page - with video editing to show how I taught according to the requirements of the assessment. If I do not pass, I need to repeat the whole process again.
3) (For staying/leaving my current job)
If I left early, I was planning on just helping mum with her pharmacy in Korea (she works a lot and would appreciate the help). This would be assuming I could get some sort of job for the 2017 school year though.
But based on your advice, it seems like its better to stay.
More Questions:
1. So that means my best choices for licensure would be DC, NJ, UT, or CT. I thought CA also required an EPP in CA if I was not transfering licenses from a different state.
If I were to eventually aim for the golden CA Clear license, what route would be the best?
2. My universities are not quite Ivy... although they got me my current job. These are Northwestern and Vanderbilt (Probably gave myself away by now). If you know either of these, are they still marketable?
3. The school I am at now is most probably third tier but is partnered with a pretty reputable American School, although this partnership is very new. Whether the teaching experience is accepted as valid depends on an employer by employer basis, correct?
PsyGuy, I think I will follow your suggestions and start looking for a job through the routes you mentioned (after researching what exactly the license requirements are for). Even if I get a low tier school, I would likely enjoy Korea more than China. Japan does not seem likely so I won't keep my hopes high.
Thanks again.
Reply
@valefore
I can see your reluctance to redoing the assessment, the NBPTS is easier.
I didnt go into sufficient depth in discussing the various options, I merely summarized the assessment requirements.
PRAXIS exams are offered world wide, they are very convenient to complete. You have two options:
1) HI is still the better of the two options at this point, as you completed an EPP/ITT program but do not hold a license, so you are still eligible for the entry credential When youve completed three years of teaching experience you can transition to the professional credential The benefits of the HI credential are 1) There is no CRB requirement, no finger prints or finger print cards and waiting. 2) No requirement for testing at this point, you can add additional endorsement areas by completing the appropriate PRAXIS exams, but your academic preparation alone will qualify you likely for 6-12 Biology and 6-12 Science. 3) The application process at this point is an application and some transcripts. Send them in wait a month or two and then HTSB will contact you with what your eligibility is. The cost is $48 a year.
The disadvantage is that you have to have a plan to do something within three years, because the entry level credential is non-renewable. You can use the entry HI credential to apply immediately for QTS. This is the cheapest and easiest pathways.
2) UT entry level credential; this doesnt require an EPP/ITT program at all, its a very new credential and its likely to have recognition issues in the future. You have to complete the PRAXIS so youd be eligible now for a 6-12 Biology credential. The advantage of this credential is that it is renewable. The disadvantages aside from the recognition issue is you need to complete a CRB and you cant add additional endorsement fields.
Professionally without additional information than staying in your current position has more utility than returning home. Returning to SK though would allow you to recruit and job search locally, possibly even find an appointment mid year.
Yes, CA requires an EPP program, and even if you have a credential from another jurisdiction, if you dont meet the requirements for a CLEAR credential, you have to undergo induction, which is essentially completing another EPP/ITT program, unless you can find employment in CA.
A future benefit of the HI credential is that you can add an ESOL endorsement and add individual science endorsements by PRAXIS examination, assuming your SAT/ACT score is high enough, than when you complete your two years of teaching experience (assuming the experience is acceptable) than you would meet the requirements for the CA CLEAR credential. Even if it wasnt accepted, youd complete two years of post HI certification experience before the HI entry level credential expired.
Neither of your Uni are Ivy league, Northwestern is only going to matter if the recruiter is a Northwestern alum. Vanderbilt has some name recognition but its not Ivy status or marketability. By Ivy you need Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, MIT, McGill (CAN), OxBridge (UK), Sorbonne (EU), etc.
It sounds third tier, which doesnt surprise me, many lower tier ISs enter into partnerships with western DSs, its an easier/cheaper means of managing accrediting a curriculum, while boosting status.
I would strongly advise you obtain the experience verification from the US DS that you are partnered with. Outside the region, experience is assessed on a case by case basis, within the US its generally accepted as a matter of course.
I can see your reluctance to redoing the assessment, the NBPTS is easier.
I didnt go into sufficient depth in discussing the various options, I merely summarized the assessment requirements.
PRAXIS exams are offered world wide, they are very convenient to complete. You have two options:
1) HI is still the better of the two options at this point, as you completed an EPP/ITT program but do not hold a license, so you are still eligible for the entry credential When youve completed three years of teaching experience you can transition to the professional credential The benefits of the HI credential are 1) There is no CRB requirement, no finger prints or finger print cards and waiting. 2) No requirement for testing at this point, you can add additional endorsement areas by completing the appropriate PRAXIS exams, but your academic preparation alone will qualify you likely for 6-12 Biology and 6-12 Science. 3) The application process at this point is an application and some transcripts. Send them in wait a month or two and then HTSB will contact you with what your eligibility is. The cost is $48 a year.
The disadvantage is that you have to have a plan to do something within three years, because the entry level credential is non-renewable. You can use the entry HI credential to apply immediately for QTS. This is the cheapest and easiest pathways.
2) UT entry level credential; this doesnt require an EPP/ITT program at all, its a very new credential and its likely to have recognition issues in the future. You have to complete the PRAXIS so youd be eligible now for a 6-12 Biology credential. The advantage of this credential is that it is renewable. The disadvantages aside from the recognition issue is you need to complete a CRB and you cant add additional endorsement fields.
Professionally without additional information than staying in your current position has more utility than returning home. Returning to SK though would allow you to recruit and job search locally, possibly even find an appointment mid year.
Yes, CA requires an EPP program, and even if you have a credential from another jurisdiction, if you dont meet the requirements for a CLEAR credential, you have to undergo induction, which is essentially completing another EPP/ITT program, unless you can find employment in CA.
A future benefit of the HI credential is that you can add an ESOL endorsement and add individual science endorsements by PRAXIS examination, assuming your SAT/ACT score is high enough, than when you complete your two years of teaching experience (assuming the experience is acceptable) than you would meet the requirements for the CA CLEAR credential. Even if it wasnt accepted, youd complete two years of post HI certification experience before the HI entry level credential expired.
Neither of your Uni are Ivy league, Northwestern is only going to matter if the recruiter is a Northwestern alum. Vanderbilt has some name recognition but its not Ivy status or marketability. By Ivy you need Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, MIT, McGill (CAN), OxBridge (UK), Sorbonne (EU), etc.
It sounds third tier, which doesnt surprise me, many lower tier ISs enter into partnerships with western DSs, its an easier/cheaper means of managing accrediting a curriculum, while boosting status.
I would strongly advise you obtain the experience verification from the US DS that you are partnered with. Outside the region, experience is assessed on a case by case basis, within the US its generally accepted as a matter of course.
Re: Teaching license and applying for international teaching
@PsyGuy
Thanks for all the help PsyGuy.
It seems like I still have a long way to go but I will start on the process.
Meanwhile, If anyone has additional opinions or advice, I would greatly appreciate your input. Second, third, fourth opinions are always valuable. Thanks all for reading.
Thanks for all the help PsyGuy.
It seems like I still have a long way to go but I will start on the process.
Meanwhile, If anyone has additional opinions or advice, I would greatly appreciate your input. Second, third, fourth opinions are always valuable. Thanks all for reading.