Hi All,
Are European international schools generally more work/classes/hours compared to Asian international schools? I know all schools are unique, but am trying to gauge the general consensus.
Thanks in advance.
European vs Asian International Schools Workload
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GLOBAL_TEACHER
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:44 am
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
It's the other way around. Elite schools in Singapore and BKK will demand a pound of your protein. You can also be easily laid off with very little or no protection due to sudden economic / political changes in these countries. Working in Asia is like investing in the stock market, with high returns come high risk.
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
Agree with Find Dude. I've worked in both regions and the large Asian school worked me to death.
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
A follow up question to this. When one says the work load is a lot for the elite schools, how does this compare to average to below average domestic schools' (for those who taught domestically in their home country) work load and work life balance? From my experience working domestically, as well as conversations and observations with fellow colleagues, we are worked to the bone and not compensated in the ways elite schools provide. Is there really a stark difference between the two or are they the same but we just get better taken care of at the elite schools?
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
Very few of these elite schools in Asia do take care of you, but comes with a huge stress tag (weekend workshops, service trips abroad, sports coaching /activity supervision, accreditation/curriculum review so on and so forth). You'd be ready to hit the ground running from Day 0.
With a little less money, you'd be a lot happier with a stable job in Europe, work at your own pace in a relaxed environment, get decent PD, and you'll still have time to mow your lawn and tend to your garden. European parents are a lot easier to work with than their Asian counterparts. Even students are not into the rat race of tuitions and perfect scores.
With a little less money, you'd be a lot happier with a stable job in Europe, work at your own pace in a relaxed environment, get decent PD, and you'll still have time to mow your lawn and tend to your garden. European parents are a lot easier to work with than their Asian counterparts. Even students are not into the rat race of tuitions and perfect scores.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
Neo Eagle,
at home I worked 7/8 classes per year - so one semester no prep, full on teaching, classes between 20 and 30. 87.5% contact time.
Overseas I've worked as low as 5/8 or 62.5% contact time, and currently working 24/40 so about 60% contact time (but added meetings and other time requirements push that up.
But generally, more time to prep and mark overseas, but more meeting/administrivia time too.
at home I worked 7/8 classes per year - so one semester no prep, full on teaching, classes between 20 and 30. 87.5% contact time.
Overseas I've worked as low as 5/8 or 62.5% contact time, and currently working 24/40 so about 60% contact time (but added meetings and other time requirements push that up.
But generally, more time to prep and mark overseas, but more meeting/administrivia time too.
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GLOBAL_TEACHER
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:44 am
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
Thanks everyone for your insight, much appreciated.
Response
In general EU ISs have lower work loads, but there are also elite tier ISs in the WE that will extract their half a kilo of flesh as well.
My experience is that you work longer in Asia but its easier where in the EU you work less but the work you actually have to do when you have to do it is harder.
Elite ISs have high standards that require more resources for the IT to extend to meet them. DE tends to be more stress and frustration and dealing with nuisances rather than more work. To give you a small example in DE you might have more classes but more of the class is individual work and involves me sitting at my desk. In IE individual work time is something homework and home is for, so I have to always be moving in IE.
High stakes assessment at multiple grade levels is a huge factor in this.
In DE my experience was much like @SJs 5/6 with 6 classes, 1 prep, 30 minutes lunch and 15 minutes mentoring. ASPs were entirely optional. The other difference was in DE I had 1-2 courses to prep for and 3-4 (or more) courses to prep in IE isnt uncommon. In IE Ive had as few as 2/8 on specific days and 4-5/7/8 is more common.
My experience is that you work longer in Asia but its easier where in the EU you work less but the work you actually have to do when you have to do it is harder.
Elite ISs have high standards that require more resources for the IT to extend to meet them. DE tends to be more stress and frustration and dealing with nuisances rather than more work. To give you a small example in DE you might have more classes but more of the class is individual work and involves me sitting at my desk. In IE individual work time is something homework and home is for, so I have to always be moving in IE.
High stakes assessment at multiple grade levels is a huge factor in this.
In DE my experience was much like @SJs 5/6 with 6 classes, 1 prep, 30 minutes lunch and 15 minutes mentoring. ASPs were entirely optional. The other difference was in DE I had 1-2 courses to prep for and 3-4 (or more) courses to prep in IE isnt uncommon. In IE Ive had as few as 2/8 on specific days and 4-5/7/8 is more common.
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
@fine dude
Huh, sounds a lot like what I do now in DE, minus the weekend workshops/trip. Much of what you described has been common for me, and many of my colleagues in DE. If the same is true in IE, but they compensate better for it (depending on location ect.), it seems from what I have read to allow for a better work life balance. It seems from how I see it a net gain from what I am doing now.
@shadowjack
That’s a helpful breakdown! It sounds like from what you are saying that in IE as opposed to DE the school gives you more time to adequately do our job! Haha Of course I have never been one to snub my nose for doing SOME work on my off hours, but in DE it has been the norm 4-5 days out of the week for the vast majority of the year, even after cutting the usual corners and making better systems for my workload.
Also, thank you for the Bangkok Job Fair thread, it but informative and entertaining!
@PsyGuy
Thank you! This helps a lot as well! PsyGuy, from what I read in the forum you are a learning support / special education teacher correct? If so did you teach LS/Spec. Ed. in DE or made the subject jump in IE? I ask because I have been teaching LS/Spec. Ed. for several years in DE and have gotten a job set up for LS/Spec. Ed. at an upper tier 2 school in Asia for next year. I read most of what anyone has written on IE LS teaching already in the forum but wanted to ask if you, or anyone for that matter, taught LS/Spec. Ed. in both DE and IE and get their take on each end.
Sorry if I am high jacking the thread!
Huh, sounds a lot like what I do now in DE, minus the weekend workshops/trip. Much of what you described has been common for me, and many of my colleagues in DE. If the same is true in IE, but they compensate better for it (depending on location ect.), it seems from what I have read to allow for a better work life balance. It seems from how I see it a net gain from what I am doing now.
@shadowjack
That’s a helpful breakdown! It sounds like from what you are saying that in IE as opposed to DE the school gives you more time to adequately do our job! Haha Of course I have never been one to snub my nose for doing SOME work on my off hours, but in DE it has been the norm 4-5 days out of the week for the vast majority of the year, even after cutting the usual corners and making better systems for my workload.
Also, thank you for the Bangkok Job Fair thread, it but informative and entertaining!
@PsyGuy
Thank you! This helps a lot as well! PsyGuy, from what I read in the forum you are a learning support / special education teacher correct? If so did you teach LS/Spec. Ed. in DE or made the subject jump in IE? I ask because I have been teaching LS/Spec. Ed. for several years in DE and have gotten a job set up for LS/Spec. Ed. at an upper tier 2 school in Asia for next year. I read most of what anyone has written on IE LS teaching already in the forum but wanted to ask if you, or anyone for that matter, taught LS/Spec. Ed. in both DE and IE and get their take on each end.
Sorry if I am high jacking the thread!
Reply
@NeoEagle
The major contributors have written extensively about this so youve likely already read it. To highlight the most significant differences:
Positives:
1) The range of disability is almost all mild needs, you dont have life skills or BMUs. For the most part the students are very high functioning. In that regard they are a dream to work with and they have strong external resources to draw from.
2) The production tasking is very minimal, the documentation is almost non existent to the production you have to do in the western DE system. That means you feel much less like a clerk and more like an IT.
3) Parents want to work with you more because they are essentially there because of the ISs good graces. The reality is an IS can dismiss a student, SEN/LS/SPED doesnt require anyone in an IS to do anything. Parents dont challenge you on every issue.
4) Caseloads tend to be much smaller.
Negatives:
1) Resource budgets are much smaller. If an IS only has a few students you arent going to be able to get anything and everything you want or even need. You might not even get a budget at all and will have to make do with that you have or requesting parents to supply it.
What there isnt much difference between IE and DE is the support from leadership. In DE the only one who really cared about SPED/SEN/LS was the HOD and district director. None of my campus APs nor P gave much more than lip service unless something was late or someone was complaining, the same is true in IE. SEN/LS/SPED is just another dept/div that has deliverables and students assigned to its roster. As long as parents arent complaining too leadership too loud your going to be left alone/ignored.
The biggest source of pain is new parents who think what they got and how it worked in the west is how its going to work in their new IS. It takes them a while to realize the AP/SP/IEP is all they are going to get and there is no committee they can make demands off and the threat of lawsuits means nothing. It takes a while for the moms to realize that there isnt a daily log for each teacher, and what they want is going to get them little more than a "sorry". Ive walked out on parents in IE who thought that the paper file was grossly undocumented (they thought they were entitled to more than a 1-5 rating an maybe a couple words in the notes instead of a daily progress report), and I wasnt going to spend an hour arguing or just agreeing with them.
The major contributors have written extensively about this so youve likely already read it. To highlight the most significant differences:
Positives:
1) The range of disability is almost all mild needs, you dont have life skills or BMUs. For the most part the students are very high functioning. In that regard they are a dream to work with and they have strong external resources to draw from.
2) The production tasking is very minimal, the documentation is almost non existent to the production you have to do in the western DE system. That means you feel much less like a clerk and more like an IT.
3) Parents want to work with you more because they are essentially there because of the ISs good graces. The reality is an IS can dismiss a student, SEN/LS/SPED doesnt require anyone in an IS to do anything. Parents dont challenge you on every issue.
4) Caseloads tend to be much smaller.
Negatives:
1) Resource budgets are much smaller. If an IS only has a few students you arent going to be able to get anything and everything you want or even need. You might not even get a budget at all and will have to make do with that you have or requesting parents to supply it.
What there isnt much difference between IE and DE is the support from leadership. In DE the only one who really cared about SPED/SEN/LS was the HOD and district director. None of my campus APs nor P gave much more than lip service unless something was late or someone was complaining, the same is true in IE. SEN/LS/SPED is just another dept/div that has deliverables and students assigned to its roster. As long as parents arent complaining too leadership too loud your going to be left alone/ignored.
The biggest source of pain is new parents who think what they got and how it worked in the west is how its going to work in their new IS. It takes them a while to realize the AP/SP/IEP is all they are going to get and there is no committee they can make demands off and the threat of lawsuits means nothing. It takes a while for the moms to realize that there isnt a daily log for each teacher, and what they want is going to get them little more than a "sorry". Ive walked out on parents in IE who thought that the paper file was grossly undocumented (they thought they were entitled to more than a 1-5 rating an maybe a couple words in the notes instead of a daily progress report), and I wasnt going to spend an hour arguing or just agreeing with them.
Re: European vs Asian International Schools Workload
@PsyGuy
"That means you feel much less like a clerk and more like an IT."
You made my Monday PsyGuy! Thank you again for the information, your post was direct and to the point and gave me the information I was looking for. I did well in DE, but went for IT for a change and I am trying not to psyche myself out thinking the failings in DE will be the same in IS. Of course mileage will vary and I will roll with the punches if they come, but it is refreshing to hear your words!
"That means you feel much less like a clerk and more like an IT."
You made my Monday PsyGuy! Thank you again for the information, your post was direct and to the point and gave me the information I was looking for. I did well in DE, but went for IT for a change and I am trying not to psyche myself out thinking the failings in DE will be the same in IS. Of course mileage will vary and I will roll with the punches if they come, but it is refreshing to hear your words!