Matt - I'd have to agree with you about classroom experience. The worst administrator I had overseas was a woman who got a job teaching ESL in the school - she's an American married to a local politician. After a couple of years, through politics, she got the job of elementary principal. She truly was awful and had no integrity.
What happened to her? She got a doctorate in school management and is now head of a European school. Only 9 lives? Maybe more than that.
value of administrator evaluations?
I'm actually in agreement with PsyGuy on just about everything in this thread.
Counter reviews (that is, positive ones) can be authentic and are helpful. I have also read positive reviews on ISR that were intended to be "rebuttal" positives but a few of them have actually persuaded me off of a school like the plague, being written by a person trying to speak to "fellow" teachers without having any real understanding of what is most important to us in working at a school. They showed evidence of not just an inability to consider their audience when communicating but also a willingness to lie and deceive. Those reviews were written talking about bizarre, random things like statistics or the success of the curriculum or personal vendetta against an earlier reviewer. What teacher has an axe to grind on ISR, reviewing a school but trashing another teacher? Evidence of serious problems. ISR is most helpful when there are enough reviews for a pattern to appear, good or bad because most aren't as extreme as those cases.
To take the point about whether an administrator must have a positive relationship with all of the staff... when the situation is teacher-student, what do we expect of ourselves? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you like student x. You need to maintain professional respect, even if the student is being rude, this is the expectation, so that the teacher's behavior does not enter into the consequences the student will ultimately have, be they grades or otherwise. Anything else is an abuse of power: it simply can't be. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same back from an admin-teacher relationship. I agree that administrators need years of teaching so that they have a good grip on this, and on what fundamentally motivates people (younger or older) and how to encourage or at least not damage it.
Counter reviews (that is, positive ones) can be authentic and are helpful. I have also read positive reviews on ISR that were intended to be "rebuttal" positives but a few of them have actually persuaded me off of a school like the plague, being written by a person trying to speak to "fellow" teachers without having any real understanding of what is most important to us in working at a school. They showed evidence of not just an inability to consider their audience when communicating but also a willingness to lie and deceive. Those reviews were written talking about bizarre, random things like statistics or the success of the curriculum or personal vendetta against an earlier reviewer. What teacher has an axe to grind on ISR, reviewing a school but trashing another teacher? Evidence of serious problems. ISR is most helpful when there are enough reviews for a pattern to appear, good or bad because most aren't as extreme as those cases.
To take the point about whether an administrator must have a positive relationship with all of the staff... when the situation is teacher-student, what do we expect of ourselves? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you like student x. You need to maintain professional respect, even if the student is being rude, this is the expectation, so that the teacher's behavior does not enter into the consequences the student will ultimately have, be they grades or otherwise. Anything else is an abuse of power: it simply can't be. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same back from an admin-teacher relationship. I agree that administrators need years of teaching so that they have a good grip on this, and on what fundamentally motivates people (younger or older) and how to encourage or at least not damage it.
Admin reviews
I am a bit amazed at the vindictive and immature nature of some of the admin reviews. Maybe it is the angry people are the ones that write reviews and the positive people are too busy doing their job.
I see reviews about "top down" decisions and other buzz words where it appears that the teacher just does not agree with a decision(s). Expecting a salary scale to be a collaborative decision is one example of absurdity.
Sometimes I worry that I was that immature and arrogant when I started teaching...maybe I was.
I see reviews about "top down" decisions and other buzz words where it appears that the teacher just does not agree with a decision(s). Expecting a salary scale to be a collaborative decision is one example of absurdity.
Sometimes I worry that I was that immature and arrogant when I started teaching...maybe I was.
Reflection
A collaborative salary scale isnt absurd. When management includes input from its employees (teachers) and customers (parents) they minimize and reduce the accumulation of negative stressors (poisons) in the work relationship. When admins act like dictators and declare "This is the salary, take it or leave it" some will leave it and those that take it are going to feel cheated/used/abused. As an admin you only get so much "currency" and when it runs out, your teachers leave, in the meantime the environment will grow more and more toxic. You might save some money in the beginning but you will "pay for it" one way or the other.
So are you saying that at your school in San Antonio, Denmark, or Northern Europe they get with the teachers to decide the salary scale? I could see a recipe for financial disaster, not to mention unfairness if/when the teachers get paid differing amounts.
I understand being paid a fair wage, but I can't imagine very many jobs where the employees negotiate/collaborate on the salaries (unless it's like the UAW that ran the US auto industry into bankruptcy). Also, I would rather not get involved in that whole process - offer me a competitive wage and let me move on with teaching. If the school sees teachers leaving in droves, maybe the salary goes up. If it was too low I would move on.
So what do the teachers do if they feel the wage is not what they want? Strike? What if it's a competitive wage, but someone wants more - strike for that person/group of people? There are always people who want more - right? I agree with the absurd comment. Input is okay, but to collaborate would open up a huge can of worms and take too much time/energy.
I understand being paid a fair wage, but I can't imagine very many jobs where the employees negotiate/collaborate on the salaries (unless it's like the UAW that ran the US auto industry into bankruptcy). Also, I would rather not get involved in that whole process - offer me a competitive wage and let me move on with teaching. If the school sees teachers leaving in droves, maybe the salary goes up. If it was too low I would move on.
So what do the teachers do if they feel the wage is not what they want? Strike? What if it's a competitive wage, but someone wants more - strike for that person/group of people? There are always people who want more - right? I agree with the absurd comment. Input is okay, but to collaborate would open up a huge can of worms and take too much time/energy.
Well
We are a municipal school our salary is determined by the ministry, and its a collaborative process involving labor/work groups. All of our teachers get the same salary, there is no step or scale.
How are you going to be offered a real competitive wage if there is no advocacy on the side of teachers for one? Competitive would simply become whatever admins decide it is, and that would be as much a financial disaster for teachers. Your assumption is that market forces will produce a competitive wage, and that is seldom is ever true.
How are you going to be offered a real competitive wage if there is no advocacy on the side of teachers for one? Competitive would simply become whatever admins decide it is, and that would be as much a financial disaster for teachers. Your assumption is that market forces will produce a competitive wage, and that is seldom is ever true.
Psyguy you said, "When admins act like dictators and declare "This is the salary, take it or leave it" some will leave it and those that take it are going to feel cheated/used/abused."
So your teachers at your school get to negotiate the salary? You sound as if the salary is set already, but you are also saying there should be no "take it or leave it". I'm confused. So... can you go to your administrator and get a different salary or not? Can you get a different salary when you are in the hiring process? If not, aren't you working for one of those nasty "dictatorship schools"? You must be feeling pretty abused since you cannot collaborate on your salary and instead are given the salary figure from an oppressive figure from he(double toothpicks). How brutal is that? Everyone collaborates for the same wage? Sounds unfair and just plain old weird to me.
If market forces are not setting the salaries, what entity/force is? How does it work now? I must be confused - nothing new :)
So your teachers at your school get to negotiate the salary? You sound as if the salary is set already, but you are also saying there should be no "take it or leave it". I'm confused. So... can you go to your administrator and get a different salary or not? Can you get a different salary when you are in the hiring process? If not, aren't you working for one of those nasty "dictatorship schools"? You must be feeling pretty abused since you cannot collaborate on your salary and instead are given the salary figure from an oppressive figure from he(double toothpicks). How brutal is that? Everyone collaborates for the same wage? Sounds unfair and just plain old weird to me.
If market forces are not setting the salaries, what entity/force is? How does it work now? I must be confused - nothing new :)
Yes
Yes, we get to negotiate our salary by supplying input and advocacy by participating in local and national government decisions. The process is not unilateral (as in management dictatorship).
The "market" (supply/demand) alone does not determine cost and value. Factors such as regulation (minimum/fair wage laws), and collective bargaining have a strong influence in markets price and costs.
The "market" (supply/demand) alone does not determine cost and value. Factors such as regulation (minimum/fair wage laws), and collective bargaining have a strong influence in markets price and costs.
So, based upon where ever you are's strong negotiating and collaborating, you must have some of the best wages in the world - correct? I must be wrong because I have heard that the salaries in Europe were actually quite low when taking into account taxes, cost of living, etc. Sorry, but I could do without that type of salary collaboration. I also do not want to get paid the same amount as someone fresh out of teacher training (nor would I have expected higher pay when I finished teacher training).
You sound as if you go with the collaboration method because it leads to better results. Please explain ISB, WAB, etc. and why they pay so much and get so many applicants for each job. I don't believe there is a huge turnover at the tier I schools. The tier I schools also pay way more than public school teachers (relatively speaking). How is that possible with collaboration? Are they (schools with strong unions/collaboration) collaborating for lower pay? In many places where the pay is low, if there are not huge side benefits, you either get new teachers, or they leave (or never go there to begin with).
I think we could all agree about the need for teachers to have input, but to believe that this is some sort of collaboration exercise is absurd. I also find it amusing how the bad reviews use buzzwords: bully, top-down, dictator, racist, sexist like they are getting points for using it each time. It's a shame because it weakens the overall power of what this site could be.
You sound as if you go with the collaboration method because it leads to better results. Please explain ISB, WAB, etc. and why they pay so much and get so many applicants for each job. I don't believe there is a huge turnover at the tier I schools. The tier I schools also pay way more than public school teachers (relatively speaking). How is that possible with collaboration? Are they (schools with strong unions/collaboration) collaborating for lower pay? In many places where the pay is low, if there are not huge side benefits, you either get new teachers, or they leave (or never go there to begin with).
I think we could all agree about the need for teachers to have input, but to believe that this is some sort of collaboration exercise is absurd. I also find it amusing how the bad reviews use buzzwords: bully, top-down, dictator, racist, sexist like they are getting points for using it each time. It's a shame because it weakens the overall power of what this site could be.
Framing
We do have high salaries, and they become rather low after high taxes, but those taxes arent just loses. Those taxes pay for services that residents value and benefit from. We have an amazing health care system that is basically free. We have an efficient, convenient, clean transportation system, we have social programs that allow new parents to take several years of maternity and paternity leave, and we have well funded schools that are on level in quality of education with private/independent schools.
I understand YOU could do without that level of salary collaboration. Thats your preference, but thats just a preference.
Schools bank on their reputation, their reputation comprises many factors from exam performance and university admission to teacher and parent opinions. ISB, WAB, ASIJ, ASL, are successful because they expend resources to create and maintain that reputation. They collaborate with many stakeholders parents, community, government, teachers to avoid damaging their reputation. These schools pay more, and can afford to because they benefit and profit from the positive results of past and current collaboration efforts. For example WAB is very admin heavy, because in part it has a lot of relationships it needs to manage and negotiate. You dont need a lot of dictators, when the system of governance is "my way or the highway".
I get the impression that you define collaboration as a process that is formal and adversarial. Let me suggest that, that isnt true.
I understand YOU could do without that level of salary collaboration. Thats your preference, but thats just a preference.
Schools bank on their reputation, their reputation comprises many factors from exam performance and university admission to teacher and parent opinions. ISB, WAB, ASIJ, ASL, are successful because they expend resources to create and maintain that reputation. They collaborate with many stakeholders parents, community, government, teachers to avoid damaging their reputation. These schools pay more, and can afford to because they benefit and profit from the positive results of past and current collaboration efforts. For example WAB is very admin heavy, because in part it has a lot of relationships it needs to manage and negotiate. You dont need a lot of dictators, when the system of governance is "my way or the highway".
I get the impression that you define collaboration as a process that is formal and adversarial. Let me suggest that, that isnt true.
Yea. I see how those awesome salaries and programs are working for Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, and Greece - maybe France down the road.
I do not think collaboration is an adversarial process. I could just picture teachers at ISB sitting around looking through the financial books and working on salary scales, meeting with the parents and admin about salary tables, etc. - not spending hours working on lessons, clubs, teaching, etc.
You do have the advantage of having a Whataburger near you so you win. Man I miss that place. Amazing breakfasts! Don't care much for the Alamo, but the River Walk is cool.
Have a great weekend! It's not the heat that gets ya, it's the humidity!
I do not think collaboration is an adversarial process. I could just picture teachers at ISB sitting around looking through the financial books and working on salary scales, meeting with the parents and admin about salary tables, etc. - not spending hours working on lessons, clubs, teaching, etc.
You do have the advantage of having a Whataburger near you so you win. Man I miss that place. Amazing breakfasts! Don't care much for the Alamo, but the River Walk is cool.
Have a great weekend! It's not the heat that gets ya, it's the humidity!
Well maybe I have a different idea of what collaboration is from you. However, administrators decide certain things and salary and who gets hired are two of the main things. Administrators are responsible for the budget not teachers. If an administrator is responsible for the budget, they need to have the power to control the budget. Responsibility without power is absurd. This is not being a dictator, just the most efficient way to run any organization. Teachers are always concerned (and rightly so) with administrators run amuk. Teachers want to have a hand in the evaluation process to prevent bad administrator decisions. What happens is then the administrator can't do their job and get rid of bad teachers. The solution is not more controls or teacher involvement but rather better administrators. Education is a fairly unique industry where the employees feel (and often do) have input into these types of administrator decisions. Teachers can leave if they don't like it. What other industry allows bad employees to hang around for months (at a minimum) and often years? Considering teachers work with our most precious resource (children) we should have higher standards not lower. Overall, there are too many bad teachers and too many bad administrators out there. They both need more accountability. They both need more mobility.
Sorry
That argument is a bottomless pit. You can ALWAYS want/have a better administrator (or better teacher, student, etc)and more anything and everything (including accountability and mobility) but from a practical standpoint those options just arent available.
You will get better teachers and administrators if your organization has the ability to make employees accountable and the power to make changes. If you throw up your hands and say "it is a bottomless pit" then schools will not improve. NYC has tons of incompetent teachers sitting in "rubber rooms" because they can not get rid of them. All too often the teachers band together to protect themselves from bad administrators and end up protecting bad teachers. International schools have a lot of former public school teachers who bring the culture with them and then are shocked when they are held accountable or simply dismissed with no formal process.