Blindsided
Reply
@Sid
No, but ask NB that if he ever gets out of Indonesian prison alive. If leadership at that IS had acted with I dont know, compassion, empathy, etc. and provided a heads up they could have been back in their HOR where concepts like "justice" prevail. Of course you probably feel the leadership of that IS was just doing their job, right?
I lean to the latter as well, but again what would they do, rebel, refuse, etc.. might as well sign your own dismissal letter. Whats not deserved about them being called "leaders", does it change the power dynamic, do they have less authority. What does it matter what you or I or this forum or the profession think about what they deserve or not, they have the position, the title, and the big chair.
What comfort and solace it must be to them when they are dismissed to know that their integrity, empathy and compassion is respected by a profession who believe they "deserve" to be called leaders. Im curious how much coin their bank or retirement manager or loan lender will deposit in their account for this respect, and integrity, and compassion and empathy.
No, but ask NB that if he ever gets out of Indonesian prison alive. If leadership at that IS had acted with I dont know, compassion, empathy, etc. and provided a heads up they could have been back in their HOR where concepts like "justice" prevail. Of course you probably feel the leadership of that IS was just doing their job, right?
I lean to the latter as well, but again what would they do, rebel, refuse, etc.. might as well sign your own dismissal letter. Whats not deserved about them being called "leaders", does it change the power dynamic, do they have less authority. What does it matter what you or I or this forum or the profession think about what they deserve or not, they have the position, the title, and the big chair.
What comfort and solace it must be to them when they are dismissed to know that their integrity, empathy and compassion is respected by a profession who believe they "deserve" to be called leaders. Im curious how much coin their bank or retirement manager or loan lender will deposit in their account for this respect, and integrity, and compassion and empathy.
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secondplace
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 pm
Re: Blindsided
@PsyGuy
Wow, that escalated somewhat. I sense that we have different perspectives of the roles of leadership and management.
I'm comfortable with my understanding of leadership as being based on integrity and service to others. Will that mean I have less money to hug at night and will my integrity keep me warm at night?
I suspect not, but then I would never equate any of this to warfare or battle conditions.
Each to their own etc. but I would suggest that you invest in a sense of perspective. And a spell and grammar checker. Judging from the the adverts I see on YouTube https://www.grammarly.com/ might be worth a visit.
At least they would you help move from your position from locusts to locus.
hugs etc.
x
Wow, that escalated somewhat. I sense that we have different perspectives of the roles of leadership and management.
I'm comfortable with my understanding of leadership as being based on integrity and service to others. Will that mean I have less money to hug at night and will my integrity keep me warm at night?
I suspect not, but then I would never equate any of this to warfare or battle conditions.
Each to their own etc. but I would suggest that you invest in a sense of perspective. And a spell and grammar checker. Judging from the the adverts I see on YouTube https://www.grammarly.com/ might be worth a visit.
At least they would you help move from your position from locusts to locus.
hugs etc.
x
Re: Blindsided
Leadership screwing faculty might sound good in the short-term, depending on your definition of "good," but it most definitely hurts the institution in the long term. Who would want to work at a school like that? As others have mentioned, I hope OP is documenting this and the school name on the paid side of the site and the forums.
Reply
@secondplace
Your view of leadership just isnt reflective of reality, its some academic ivory tour version of what leadership aspires to be. As long a ownership can be anyone regardless of moral compass, there will be evil in leadership.
I can lie deceive myself too, and think that all world leaders have the best interests of humanity as well, its not going to make it happen. Youre in leadership though or a cheerleader of leadership so you have an agenda to support.
I have a sense of perspective, its just not your sense of perspective. I have a spelling and grammar checker, but I also have auto correct and it thinks it knows what I want to write better than I do.
::hugs::
Your view of leadership just isnt reflective of reality, its some academic ivory tour version of what leadership aspires to be. As long a ownership can be anyone regardless of moral compass, there will be evil in leadership.
I can lie deceive myself too, and think that all world leaders have the best interests of humanity as well, its not going to make it happen. Youre in leadership though or a cheerleader of leadership so you have an agenda to support.
I have a sense of perspective, its just not your sense of perspective. I have a spelling and grammar checker, but I also have auto correct and it thinks it knows what I want to write better than I do.
::hugs::
Re: Blindsided
dolphin wrote:
> Finally I my answer yesterday from the the VP! Enrollment and monetary
> issues. The VP also was not renewed and three other teachers. The ones who
> got renewal got a salary cut.
>
> I would like to thank everyone for all the help.
Why could they just not have told you that at the outset? I know some people just don't think about it but if it comes down to something out of your own control then at least it would have put your mind at rest. Not doing that threatened the possibility of staff walking!
> Finally I my answer yesterday from the the VP! Enrollment and monetary
> issues. The VP also was not renewed and three other teachers. The ones who
> got renewal got a salary cut.
>
> I would like to thank everyone for all the help.
Why could they just not have told you that at the outset? I know some people just don't think about it but if it comes down to something out of your own control then at least it would have put your mind at rest. Not doing that threatened the possibility of staff walking!
Reply
@expatscot
Its possible they didnt know. They were hoping enrollment numbers would be higher or would improve. They hoped enough ITs would leave anyway. They also could have thought as posted earlier that giving ITs more choices means more would leave and result in them having to recruit, by posting the dismissals so late, staff walking out this late wouldnt have as many opportunities, and thus would accept the salary reduction.
Its possible they didnt know. They were hoping enrollment numbers would be higher or would improve. They hoped enough ITs would leave anyway. They also could have thought as posted earlier that giving ITs more choices means more would leave and result in them having to recruit, by posting the dismissals so late, staff walking out this late wouldnt have as many opportunities, and thus would accept the salary reduction.
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @expatscot
>
> Its possible they didnt know. They were hoping enrollment numbers would be
> higher or would improve. They hoped enough ITs would leave anyway. They
> also could have thought as posted earlier that giving ITs more choices
> means more would leave and result in them having to recruit, by posting the
> dismissals so late, staff walking out this late wouldnt have as many
> opportunities, and thus would accept the salary reduction.
Sorry - wasn't clear in my original post. What I meant was why they couldn't have just said that when they sent the original email saying the contract wasn't being renewed? That would have saved the OP's stress and probably saved the school a lot of anger, even if people were disappointed.
> @expatscot
>
> Its possible they didnt know. They were hoping enrollment numbers would be
> higher or would improve. They hoped enough ITs would leave anyway. They
> also could have thought as posted earlier that giving ITs more choices
> means more would leave and result in them having to recruit, by posting the
> dismissals so late, staff walking out this late wouldnt have as many
> opportunities, and thus would accept the salary reduction.
Sorry - wasn't clear in my original post. What I meant was why they couldn't have just said that when they sent the original email saying the contract wasn't being renewed? That would have saved the OP's stress and probably saved the school a lot of anger, even if people were disappointed.
Reply
@expatscot
Saving face, its otherwise an admission of weakness or failure. From ownerships POV they have just admitted their failing, how does that benefit them, especially if it get back to parents? If they just dismiss faculty and they gripe or even get angry and they post to ISR, what do they care. They have bigger problems and they are better to protect their reputation with the parents. ITs arent the client they are a commodity, your basically livestock, and what do they (ownership) care what the cow thinks.
Saving face, its otherwise an admission of weakness or failure. From ownerships POV they have just admitted their failing, how does that benefit them, especially if it get back to parents? If they just dismiss faculty and they gripe or even get angry and they post to ISR, what do they care. They have bigger problems and they are better to protect their reputation with the parents. ITs arent the client they are a commodity, your basically livestock, and what do they (ownership) care what the cow thinks.
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MusicTravel30
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 8:52 am
Re: Blindsided
I was blindsided once. I was not given a reason and I did not get a response when asking for one. Not until my father in law, a resident of the country as well, came in and basically got it out of them. He was really fed up with how I was treated and wanted to stand up for me so I agreed. He is very convincing, jack of all trades kind of guy and very diplomatic in the meeting itself despite how mad he was outside of it.
In the end we figured out that *gasp* there was "no just cause" and after I got the letter stating as much I went to see the coordinator once more to see if I could get some kind of detailed answer. I regret it because more or less it was "smile more" (and I admit I am not one for fake smiles or shallow displays of emotion). Basically I was too stoic, not enough smiles around campus. Which should not matter if you are doing your job, which I was. I had trouble with a few kids but most of them really liked me (months after I left the school a half dozen students from the school saw me in the mall and were so happy to see me). As a teacher, if you see me around campus you would likely say that I am focused, neutral and lost in my own mind (thinking about some activity or lesson plan, etc.). I guess some could claim I am aloof. Regardless, I did not know that not smiling (enough) was a reason to blindside someone without cause. The more I think about it, the more I think I should sign up for the paid site even if money is tight and really outline the experience in greater detail.
My point is, I suppose, if you were to ask for a reason you would likely get something stupid like I did. Even if they do not provide a reason, it is likely because they have no solid reason and that there is "no just cause." That says a lot.
In the end we figured out that *gasp* there was "no just cause" and after I got the letter stating as much I went to see the coordinator once more to see if I could get some kind of detailed answer. I regret it because more or less it was "smile more" (and I admit I am not one for fake smiles or shallow displays of emotion). Basically I was too stoic, not enough smiles around campus. Which should not matter if you are doing your job, which I was. I had trouble with a few kids but most of them really liked me (months after I left the school a half dozen students from the school saw me in the mall and were so happy to see me). As a teacher, if you see me around campus you would likely say that I am focused, neutral and lost in my own mind (thinking about some activity or lesson plan, etc.). I guess some could claim I am aloof. Regardless, I did not know that not smiling (enough) was a reason to blindside someone without cause. The more I think about it, the more I think I should sign up for the paid site even if money is tight and really outline the experience in greater detail.
My point is, I suppose, if you were to ask for a reason you would likely get something stupid like I did. Even if they do not provide a reason, it is likely because they have no solid reason and that there is "no just cause." That says a lot.
Discussion
Not that an IS needs just or good cause, they can make staffing decisions for any reason or no reason. You can just as easily be dismissed for smiling too much as you can for not smiling enough. It all comes down to fit, and the reasons dont matter beyond, just not fitting in.
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MusicTravel30
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 8:52 am
Re: Blindsided
No. According to labor laws of the country I was in and the actual contract as well, they do indeed need just cause with legit reasons. To fire someone requires a process that starts with giving the employee a bulletin, in other words a written document that states admin grievances towards the teacher, signed by the employee once a meeting has taken place to set up a plan of correction based on that bulletin. 3 bulletins are required before someone can be fired for cause. I did not have a single bulletin, written documentation of grievances, and not smiling is not a reason to get a bulletin, more serious transgressions are required. A paper trail is required to show admin made every step possible to change the situation in case the person dismissed decides to take it to the labor board. When my father in law was in that meeting they were shaking in their boots, they knew they were wrong, sweating bullets, etc. When they got rid of me without just cause they were counting on this idea that I was just another naive foreigner who would not (or would not know how to) fight back or that I would assume it was just the way the country was. After that meeting it was clear I could have sued. I later found out after talking to local teachers that other teachers have successfully done so as the labor board in this country are very pro-worker. The school not having any paper trail would have made it very easy for me to win. As soon as they saw what my father in law knew what he was talking about they offered a generous severance package and a note admitting there was no just cause, instead it was a dismissal without cause. My goal was not to hurt the school and by extension, possibly the students, the only ones I actually cared about as far as the school was concerned (well, and a few cool teachers).
Can a company fire you for any reason (in this country)? Sure, but they better be prepared to POSSIBLY deal with the fall out if they do not follow proper procedure and the person being impacted knows what they are doing or knows someone who does. In the end, a legit school will follow proper procedure to cover their butts and either provide bulletins outlining grievances, grievances that are accepted by the labor board, or just not renew the contract at the end. Ya, you can be fired for some dumb reason, without documents, etc. and the school can continue operating that way but eventually that comes back to bite you IMO. If not me, perhaps the next person will sue. Perhaps I should have sued to prevent a next but at the time I wanted to move on ASAP from the negativity. Hopefully they at least do things properly from now on, but who knows..would not be shocked if they tried the same thing in the future.
Can a company fire you for any reason (in this country)? Sure, but they better be prepared to POSSIBLY deal with the fall out if they do not follow proper procedure and the person being impacted knows what they are doing or knows someone who does. In the end, a legit school will follow proper procedure to cover their butts and either provide bulletins outlining grievances, grievances that are accepted by the labor board, or just not renew the contract at the end. Ya, you can be fired for some dumb reason, without documents, etc. and the school can continue operating that way but eventually that comes back to bite you IMO. If not me, perhaps the next person will sue. Perhaps I should have sued to prevent a next but at the time I wanted to move on ASAP from the negativity. Hopefully they at least do things properly from now on, but who knows..would not be shocked if they tried the same thing in the future.
Reply
@MusicTravel30
I was writing in general. ISs are private/independent institutions they have fare fewer and lessor requirements in staffing choices. Of course they must comply with general labor laws and regulations, but that isnt hard to do. First, obtaining three bulletins or warnings is easy, just call you in before the line, inform you that your professional attitude with staff and students has resulted in a number of negative complaints, this is your first warning. Do that three times and your done. Leadership doesnt have to say its smiling, or anything else. Second, they can just say whatever they want, if professional attitude isnt enough, they just get three staff (leadership types) to complain you were rude to them, done. Third, you were fortunate that the leadership at this particular IS was weak and didnt know how to handle confrontation well. Leadership could ave refused to talk to your father, and if necessary have them removed from the premise. Finally, most ISs and leadership would bet correctly that an IT wouldnt know the local law or the language, nor be able to sustain a challenge in a labor arbitration or legal proceeding, and that assumes the IT has the resources to do so, which could take years. Maybe one in 50 would catch blow back, thats a very good probability outcome for an IS. Even if its lower 1 in 20 its still to the ISs benefit, and that assumes they lose every case. You better believe they will have a file to support their position.
Even your case is a victory to them, they paid one better severance package compared to how many they didnt. They suffered no other consequences. They dismissed you for not fitting in and used smiling as an excuse, and youre not there, how did they not win.
I was writing in general. ISs are private/independent institutions they have fare fewer and lessor requirements in staffing choices. Of course they must comply with general labor laws and regulations, but that isnt hard to do. First, obtaining three bulletins or warnings is easy, just call you in before the line, inform you that your professional attitude with staff and students has resulted in a number of negative complaints, this is your first warning. Do that three times and your done. Leadership doesnt have to say its smiling, or anything else. Second, they can just say whatever they want, if professional attitude isnt enough, they just get three staff (leadership types) to complain you were rude to them, done. Third, you were fortunate that the leadership at this particular IS was weak and didnt know how to handle confrontation well. Leadership could ave refused to talk to your father, and if necessary have them removed from the premise. Finally, most ISs and leadership would bet correctly that an IT wouldnt know the local law or the language, nor be able to sustain a challenge in a labor arbitration or legal proceeding, and that assumes the IT has the resources to do so, which could take years. Maybe one in 50 would catch blow back, thats a very good probability outcome for an IS. Even if its lower 1 in 20 its still to the ISs benefit, and that assumes they lose every case. You better believe they will have a file to support their position.
Even your case is a victory to them, they paid one better severance package compared to how many they didnt. They suffered no other consequences. They dismissed you for not fitting in and used smiling as an excuse, and youre not there, how did they not win.
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MusicTravel30
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 8:52 am
Re: Blindsided
Maybe they see it as a victory, maybe they don't, I don't know and quite frankly I do not care. For me at least, it turned out to be a victory in the long run to get out of a place that operates that way. It was quite clear they do not have experience dealing with foreigners (and I was the only one there at the time I was working). The only shame is the kids were super confused as to why I was going, many pleaded with me to stay and I know when they saw me months later at a local mall, they were still super excited to see me. I do it for the kids. I keep to myself otherwise and do not always play the games that some staff want to play (like gossip or complain, etc.). I just prefer to take my stuff, hide away and grade, plan, etc. away from that. I guess not gossiping or choosing to do my own thing is not fitting in, in THAT school culture but other schools will respect a teachers right to do their own thing. So that was a victory to me IMO.
Maybe it would have been easy for them to give me bulletins but I am not so sure and I have no way of knowing because they never gave me even one. It is an official paper, signed after a meeting is held about it. I know they can only be for certain things and must include proof. Again, I just did not get any, that is the thing.
Not my father, my father in law! I guess you bring up a good point though, I guess they could have called the police but not sure they would escort him, maybe they would have, who knows, impossible to know now. Maybe my wife has more insight into the possibility of that happening and perhaps I can ask her for my own edification.
No consequences for the school unless I decide to write a review ;).
Maybe it would have been easy for them to give me bulletins but I am not so sure and I have no way of knowing because they never gave me even one. It is an official paper, signed after a meeting is held about it. I know they can only be for certain things and must include proof. Again, I just did not get any, that is the thing.
Not my father, my father in law! I guess you bring up a good point though, I guess they could have called the police but not sure they would escort him, maybe they would have, who knows, impossible to know now. Maybe my wife has more insight into the possibility of that happening and perhaps I can ask her for my own edification.
No consequences for the school unless I decide to write a review ;).
Reply
@MusicTravel30
No consequences at all if you write a review (and I highly encourage you to do so), even if there are 20 train wreck describing reviews, there will be no consequences for the IS. They dont care, and if you cant shut them down they will find someone at some point to appoint. The best you can do is help some other naive IT dodge a bullet with this IS, but they will feel nothing.
No consequences at all if you write a review (and I highly encourage you to do so), even if there are 20 train wreck describing reviews, there will be no consequences for the IS. They dont care, and if you cant shut them down they will find someone at some point to appoint. The best you can do is help some other naive IT dodge a bullet with this IS, but they will feel nothing.