I worked abroad for more than ten years. I mainly worked at 1-2 tier schools with students who were well behaved ( for the most part) and were for the most part university bound. The pandemic struck and I went back home to the US working at a public school. There are some good kids and then theres many-many students that unfortunately for a variety of reasons cause a ruckus.
Will you ever go back to working in a public school? Has anyone experienced the shock of going back to a public school and then realizing, " WHOA" and headed back abroad? Or has anyone settled back into a public school and remain?
For me, I find days where I miss the inquiry based learning of very driven students who would take me to great heights as a teacher. Often times in a public schools, I find that I am reaching for any little bit of reward.
Your thoughts?
Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
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freetofly2022
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2022 10:58 am
Response
"a ruckus", That should win you nomination for understatement of the decade.
Id never go back to DE in the US. Many ITs have had problems with the transition:
1) They arent up to date on the particular nuances on their states curriculum. Few ITs keep up with changes and updates, adaptations and modifications.
2) Theres a learning curve to education law in their particular region. You cant use gender specific pronouns anymore or everyone gets to use the bathroom they want to. Having kids run laps is punishment. Kids can use their phones in class, all class long. You have to give students unlimited redos until they pass. You cant give students tests without giving them the answers in advanced. Dont use the water fountain because the water is contaminated. Principals can discipline teachers but not students by whacking them with a book, but not on the butt if its anyway sexually suggestive, and then its okay, but not if the person identifies as a member of an endangered species.
3) Theres so much paperwork to do. You spend more time documenting everything its a wonder theres time to teach.
4) Many ITs returning to DE do not have a strong familiarity with current and acceptable behavior management.
5) DE doesnt provide OSH packages which makes DE very expensive.
6) Getting Shot. Doesnt matter the grade, even first graders will shoot you. Thats the price you pay though for F-R-E-E-D-O-M.
Id never go back to DE in the US. Many ITs have had problems with the transition:
1) They arent up to date on the particular nuances on their states curriculum. Few ITs keep up with changes and updates, adaptations and modifications.
2) Theres a learning curve to education law in their particular region. You cant use gender specific pronouns anymore or everyone gets to use the bathroom they want to. Having kids run laps is punishment. Kids can use their phones in class, all class long. You have to give students unlimited redos until they pass. You cant give students tests without giving them the answers in advanced. Dont use the water fountain because the water is contaminated. Principals can discipline teachers but not students by whacking them with a book, but not on the butt if its anyway sexually suggestive, and then its okay, but not if the person identifies as a member of an endangered species.
3) Theres so much paperwork to do. You spend more time documenting everything its a wonder theres time to teach.
4) Many ITs returning to DE do not have a strong familiarity with current and acceptable behavior management.
5) DE doesnt provide OSH packages which makes DE very expensive.
6) Getting Shot. Doesnt matter the grade, even first graders will shoot you. Thats the price you pay though for F-R-E-E-D-O-M.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
I don't often agree with PsyGuy (and I disagree about most of the points he made), but I have to say that I am not eager to return to the US simply for the gun violence issue. I like not having to know the number of steps to my classroom door or consider escape routes or hiding places (though I do it anyway out of habit). Of course that assumes the home country is the US, which obviously isn't the case for a great many of the people on here or in IE.
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
Thames Pirate wrote:
> I don't often agree with PsyGuy (and I disagree about most of the points he
> made), but I have to say that I am not eager to return to the US simply for
> the gun violence issue. I like not having to know the number of steps to
> my classroom door or consider escape routes or hiding places (though I do
> it anyway out of habit). Of course that assumes the home country is the
> US, which obviously isn't the case for a great many of the people on here
> or in IE.
whats the chance of you getting killed in a school shooting?
pretty sure you would have a higher chance of getting killed in a car accident.
> I don't often agree with PsyGuy (and I disagree about most of the points he
> made), but I have to say that I am not eager to return to the US simply for
> the gun violence issue. I like not having to know the number of steps to
> my classroom door or consider escape routes or hiding places (though I do
> it anyway out of habit). Of course that assumes the home country is the
> US, which obviously isn't the case for a great many of the people on here
> or in IE.
whats the chance of you getting killed in a school shooting?
pretty sure you would have a higher chance of getting killed in a car accident.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
While this is true, the odds are still far higher in the US than pretty much anywhere else unless you are teaching in a conflict zone. Then there are the lockdown drills and actual scary lockdowns that happen. Those are far more common. We had two legitimate, scary lockdowns where, thankfully, nobody was actually shot, in my last twelve months in the US. But they were still really awful.
It's just one more reason not to return to the US. That's all. Don't read more into it than that.
It's just one more reason not to return to the US. That's all. Don't read more into it than that.
Reply
@cdmxpaisa
In the realm of accidental death, isnt everything less likely to kill you than an auto accident? What youre also not considering is the grinding effect that fear has on a DT and what that does to their sense of self, their mind, stress, and other effects.
In the realm of accidental death, isnt everything less likely to kill you than an auto accident? What youre also not considering is the grinding effect that fear has on a DT and what that does to their sense of self, their mind, stress, and other effects.
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Innsbruckave
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:01 pm
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
I returned to my home country after over 20 years overseas, living, teaching and having a family. All my children were educated entirely overseas. My oldest graduated last year and then had a summer job in my home country. He has the passport, but has never been here for more than holidays. He’s had a few jobs and is adjusting.
I brought my youngest home with me to experience school in America. I got a job as a substitute in the district.It has been a complete shock, for all of us. The youngest and I are happy we had this experience, but we’re going back overseas. The chaos in the classrooms, the violence every day, the lack of respect, and discipline. Then there’s this attitude or approach to the students where we want them to feel included and we’re allowing all sorts of stuff so that the kids show up because attendance is down. So, the dress code is thrown out the window and kids come in pajamas or worse. Anyhow, my youngest is desperate to get back to uniforms and discipline and order. Me too!
The oldest has gone into the military. He’s craving order and discipline too!
I brought my youngest home with me to experience school in America. I got a job as a substitute in the district.It has been a complete shock, for all of us. The youngest and I are happy we had this experience, but we’re going back overseas. The chaos in the classrooms, the violence every day, the lack of respect, and discipline. Then there’s this attitude or approach to the students where we want them to feel included and we’re allowing all sorts of stuff so that the kids show up because attendance is down. So, the dress code is thrown out the window and kids come in pajamas or worse. Anyhow, my youngest is desperate to get back to uniforms and discipline and order. Me too!
The oldest has gone into the military. He’s craving order and discipline too!
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traveler76
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:04 pm
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
My husband and I taught abroad for 15 years in great IB schools. We moved to the US in 2020 as an experiment, and originally had plans to do some other work besides teaching. That did not pan out so I am teaching in a public school. This year I am teaching all freshmen and it has been the hardest year of my entire career. I am unable to do anything "fun" or meaningful as all lesson plans have to be tightly controlled as to try to minimize behavior problems. I was shocked to find out that I cannot use groups of 4 for seating charts--I have my tables now separated as far apart as possible to minimize potential problems. In my other life (overseas) I could not have imagined being so "old school." Still, in May, I spend a lot of time asking students to sit down, turn around, not say the F word, stop yelling/whistling/making noises/burping, take out a notebook/pencil, please don't call me "bruh" or "dude" etc....with only some success. There are of course some wonderful students, but the disrespect and attitude from the loud and distracting students make it an enormous challenge on a daily basis. This also makes me so sad for the students who want to learn and do their best, as I cannot teach them the way they deserve. I have thought about quitting every day since I started, and now am counting down until the last day.
I have tried to figure out how teachers here make it through year after year. Most of them are just as tired as I am, and just as discouraged. The answer, as far as I can tell, is the pension and lack of other options.
Oh, and we are headed back overseas in the fall and can't wait.
I have tried to figure out how teachers here make it through year after year. Most of them are just as tired as I am, and just as discouraged. The answer, as far as I can tell, is the pension and lack of other options.
Oh, and we are headed back overseas in the fall and can't wait.
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
[quote=traveler76 post_id=63849 time=1683068562 user_id=244754]
My husband and I taught abroad for 15 years in great IB schools. We moved to the US in 2020 as an experiment, and originally had plans to do some other work besides teaching. That did not pan out so I am teaching in a public school.
[/quote]
I sympathize so much, that is very similar to my experience including going home in 2020 and considering other careers. I quit teaching after returning home for a year. Found another career. Now debating whether I should get back in the game abroad . . whether it was my love for teaching that had left me or if it was just the U.S. schools that beat it out of me.
I lived in a city where teachers were paid pretty well, decent pension etc. so it seemed like a no-brainer to work and move up the salary scale. Especially what I had experienced in my last year abroad with covid, not being paid, and in other years having to move apartments on the whim of a school director, just generally not being in control of my life.
It was refreshing to come home and choose my own apartment, take advantage of investment options, buy a house, own a car, etc. . things that in my life abroad had not been options. If you can handle teaching in a U.S. school and you move to the right place I think it is clearly the better decision financially. My neighbor is a teacher and makes over $100k and owns a house that has doubled in value since he bought it . . compare that to an IT who has been maybe squirreling away $20-$30k/year if they're lucky. Not to mention setting down roots and not upending your life every several years or seeing friends come and go. Obviously teaching in a place like Florida and making $45k or whatever is just not on the table so you have to be strategic in where you go.
But yes it is a vastly different experience. It's a different job really. Public school teachers are more like prison guards, needing to have thick skin and pay no mind to the bureaucracy and insanity of it all e.g. unfunded mandates over your time (do 100 hours of work in 40, and if you don't here is a written warning). That's not to say I didn't see fantastic teachers in the U.S. But even with the insanity sometimes present in international schools, I felt that generally my classroom was mine and that's where I spent most of my time. My focus on the quality of instruction was respected and needed, whereas public schools priority generally revolves around satisfying byzantine requirements for funding (butts in seats, slapping an IB logo on the door, testing).
My husband and I taught abroad for 15 years in great IB schools. We moved to the US in 2020 as an experiment, and originally had plans to do some other work besides teaching. That did not pan out so I am teaching in a public school.
[/quote]
I sympathize so much, that is very similar to my experience including going home in 2020 and considering other careers. I quit teaching after returning home for a year. Found another career. Now debating whether I should get back in the game abroad . . whether it was my love for teaching that had left me or if it was just the U.S. schools that beat it out of me.
I lived in a city where teachers were paid pretty well, decent pension etc. so it seemed like a no-brainer to work and move up the salary scale. Especially what I had experienced in my last year abroad with covid, not being paid, and in other years having to move apartments on the whim of a school director, just generally not being in control of my life.
It was refreshing to come home and choose my own apartment, take advantage of investment options, buy a house, own a car, etc. . things that in my life abroad had not been options. If you can handle teaching in a U.S. school and you move to the right place I think it is clearly the better decision financially. My neighbor is a teacher and makes over $100k and owns a house that has doubled in value since he bought it . . compare that to an IT who has been maybe squirreling away $20-$30k/year if they're lucky. Not to mention setting down roots and not upending your life every several years or seeing friends come and go. Obviously teaching in a place like Florida and making $45k or whatever is just not on the table so you have to be strategic in where you go.
But yes it is a vastly different experience. It's a different job really. Public school teachers are more like prison guards, needing to have thick skin and pay no mind to the bureaucracy and insanity of it all e.g. unfunded mandates over your time (do 100 hours of work in 40, and if you don't here is a written warning). That's not to say I didn't see fantastic teachers in the U.S. But even with the insanity sometimes present in international schools, I felt that generally my classroom was mine and that's where I spent most of my time. My focus on the quality of instruction was respected and needed, whereas public schools priority generally revolves around satisfying byzantine requirements for funding (butts in seats, slapping an IB logo on the door, testing).
Discussion
@cms989
Was that apartment you were forced to move at the whim of leadership your coin or the ISs coin? If it was your coin why would you have done anything your leadership demanded as far as moving goes, and if it was their coin, its their apartment, they can do what they want with it. Sure you moved back and got to choose your own apartment, but you also got to pay your own coin for that apartment. DSs usually dont provide OSH packages such as housing for DTs in DE.
You can participate in a lot of investment options in IE. Can you contribute to an IRA if you exclude all your income, no, but there are a lot of other investment types available. Where most DTs vs. ITs get hung up is that DE generally provides some form of easy peezy pension option, and IE typically does not, resulting in more effort and funding on the side of the IT, but there are plenty of OS (EUR for example) that is still IE and provides social insurance.
Buying a house I can get. That can be and usually is more difficult and in some places either ill advised or just not an option for an expat. Where could you be and not own a car? I know places where driving a car beyond a certsain period of time, would require a lot more work and for some places would require learning the language to a far greater degree than many ITs would be willing or functionally capable of doing, but not being able to own car as personal property Im not getting.
You can be OS and buy a house as an asset and watch it appreciate in value. If your getting an OSH package your not double paying anymore than the DT in your narrative, as I doubt that US DT making 6 figures is getting a housing allowance.
While there are DS in the US you can make 6 figures at (same in AUS and more common) there are ISs you can make 6 figures out AND get an OSH package on top of it (The Kingdom for example).
You can set down roots in IE just as much as you can in DE. Seeing friends come and go has more to do with the control those friends have in their lives and not yours. Its not really something you have a lot of control over.
I was in a DS where collecting written warnings was a kind of competition among the faculty. At the start of the year the ones that wanted to each put in 20 and the one with the most warnings and was renewed got the pot. This was a DS where warnings were issued routinely for things like having more than one office referral a week, where the warning cited lack of behavior management. DTs would get numerous written warnings each week. I think the individual record was 30 something in one week. That kind of achievement really takes some effort.
Was that apartment you were forced to move at the whim of leadership your coin or the ISs coin? If it was your coin why would you have done anything your leadership demanded as far as moving goes, and if it was their coin, its their apartment, they can do what they want with it. Sure you moved back and got to choose your own apartment, but you also got to pay your own coin for that apartment. DSs usually dont provide OSH packages such as housing for DTs in DE.
You can participate in a lot of investment options in IE. Can you contribute to an IRA if you exclude all your income, no, but there are a lot of other investment types available. Where most DTs vs. ITs get hung up is that DE generally provides some form of easy peezy pension option, and IE typically does not, resulting in more effort and funding on the side of the IT, but there are plenty of OS (EUR for example) that is still IE and provides social insurance.
Buying a house I can get. That can be and usually is more difficult and in some places either ill advised or just not an option for an expat. Where could you be and not own a car? I know places where driving a car beyond a certsain period of time, would require a lot more work and for some places would require learning the language to a far greater degree than many ITs would be willing or functionally capable of doing, but not being able to own car as personal property Im not getting.
You can be OS and buy a house as an asset and watch it appreciate in value. If your getting an OSH package your not double paying anymore than the DT in your narrative, as I doubt that US DT making 6 figures is getting a housing allowance.
While there are DS in the US you can make 6 figures at (same in AUS and more common) there are ISs you can make 6 figures out AND get an OSH package on top of it (The Kingdom for example).
You can set down roots in IE just as much as you can in DE. Seeing friends come and go has more to do with the control those friends have in their lives and not yours. Its not really something you have a lot of control over.
I was in a DS where collecting written warnings was a kind of competition among the faculty. At the start of the year the ones that wanted to each put in 20 and the one with the most warnings and was renewed got the pot. This was a DS where warnings were issued routinely for things like having more than one office referral a week, where the warning cited lack of behavior management. DTs would get numerous written warnings each week. I think the individual record was 30 something in one week. That kind of achievement really takes some effort.
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
For many years I worked in public schools, and I will absolutely go back to public schools one day for a variety of reasons.
One tip is to find the RIGHT public school for you. Depending on the state you are in, you'll have different options. Certain states have amazing public school systems. I was not in one of those states, but I found the right school with a vision and mission I was aligned with. There are a variety of charter and magnet schools that run as public schools. IB Americas has numerous regional organizations that you can join and find jobs through if you are interested in IB schools.
I think it is more about finding the right public school fit than comparing the caliber of students of international and public schools. I had amazing students in public schools, and I have amazing students in high performing international schools. The key was that I was at the right type of public school with excellent administrators that fully supported their teachers.
One tip is to find the RIGHT public school for you. Depending on the state you are in, you'll have different options. Certain states have amazing public school systems. I was not in one of those states, but I found the right school with a vision and mission I was aligned with. There are a variety of charter and magnet schools that run as public schools. IB Americas has numerous regional organizations that you can join and find jobs through if you are interested in IB schools.
I think it is more about finding the right public school fit than comparing the caliber of students of international and public schools. I had amazing students in public schools, and I have amazing students in high performing international schools. The key was that I was at the right type of public school with excellent administrators that fully supported their teachers.
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Innsbruckave
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:01 pm
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
traveler76 wrote:
> My husband and I taught abroad for 15 years in great IB schools. We moved
> to the US in 2020 as an experiment, and originally had plans to do some
> other work besides teaching. That did not pan out so I am teaching in a
> public school. This year I am teaching all freshmen and it has been the
> hardest year of my entire career. I am unable to do anything
> "fun" or meaningful as all lesson plans have to be tightly
> controlled as to try to minimize behavior problems. I was shocked to find
> out that I cannot use groups of 4 for seating charts--I have my tables now
> separated as far apart as possible to minimize potential problems. In my
> other life (overseas) I could not have imagined being so "old
> school." Still, in May, I spend a lot of time asking students to sit
> down, turn around, not say the F word, stop yelling/whistling/making
> noises/burping, take out a notebook/pencil, please don't call me
> "bruh" or "dude" etc....with only some success. There
> are of course some wonderful students, but the disrespect and attitude from
> the loud and distracting students make it an enormous challenge on a daily
> basis. This also makes me so sad for the students who want to learn and do
> their best, as I cannot teach them the way they deserve. I have thought
> about quitting every day since I started, and now am counting down until
> the last day.
>
> I have tried to figure out how teachers here make it through year after
> year. Most of them are just as tired as I am, and just as discouraged. The
> answer, as far as I can tell, is the pension and lack of other options.
>
> Oh, and we are headed back overseas in the fall and can't wait.
This makes me feel a lot better. My classes in the States are very similar. It's been very exhausting and very unfulfilling.
I also am returning overseas, and I too can't wait.
> My husband and I taught abroad for 15 years in great IB schools. We moved
> to the US in 2020 as an experiment, and originally had plans to do some
> other work besides teaching. That did not pan out so I am teaching in a
> public school. This year I am teaching all freshmen and it has been the
> hardest year of my entire career. I am unable to do anything
> "fun" or meaningful as all lesson plans have to be tightly
> controlled as to try to minimize behavior problems. I was shocked to find
> out that I cannot use groups of 4 for seating charts--I have my tables now
> separated as far apart as possible to minimize potential problems. In my
> other life (overseas) I could not have imagined being so "old
> school." Still, in May, I spend a lot of time asking students to sit
> down, turn around, not say the F word, stop yelling/whistling/making
> noises/burping, take out a notebook/pencil, please don't call me
> "bruh" or "dude" etc....with only some success. There
> are of course some wonderful students, but the disrespect and attitude from
> the loud and distracting students make it an enormous challenge on a daily
> basis. This also makes me so sad for the students who want to learn and do
> their best, as I cannot teach them the way they deserve. I have thought
> about quitting every day since I started, and now am counting down until
> the last day.
>
> I have tried to figure out how teachers here make it through year after
> year. Most of them are just as tired as I am, and just as discouraged. The
> answer, as far as I can tell, is the pension and lack of other options.
>
> Oh, and we are headed back overseas in the fall and can't wait.
This makes me feel a lot better. My classes in the States are very similar. It's been very exhausting and very unfulfilling.
I also am returning overseas, and I too can't wait.
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freetofly2022
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2022 10:58 am
Re: Public School Vs. International - Culture Shock
What are the abbreviations, " DSs to make DE?" Not sure what these abbreviations are?
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