@Thames Pirate
No, it means exactly that you misinterpreted it.
In the citation of my post you provided
"Thats not true, a number of westerners started with western citizenship (US/CAN/AUS) and then obtained German citizenship by familiar recognition keeping both citizenship. You are not required to renounce".
The term familiar is defined as "of or relating to a family".
I dont need to retreat to anything, I understand the language I use.
No Germany is not the strongest passport in the World.
Teaching in Germany
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Teaching in Germany
Are you contrary just to see who will argue with you? We can all look up passport strengths. We all know what naturalization means. I will let readers figure it out and let you rest secure in the knowledge that you just used the definition and not the word naturalize. Yes, PsyGuy. We all saw that you didn't use the word.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Its true our readership could consult other sources in regards to what is the strongest passport, but I like to think they use this forums resources as another type of resource, and the German passport isnt the strongest.
Most people are capable of educating themselves on the definition of terms, which is why I make language and expression choices carefully, because I know what they mean and appreciate the differences among them.
Its true our readership could consult other sources in regards to what is the strongest passport, but I like to think they use this forums resources as another type of resource, and the German passport isnt the strongest.
Most people are capable of educating themselves on the definition of terms, which is why I make language and expression choices carefully, because I know what they mean and appreciate the differences among them.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Teaching in Germany
If they are stupid enough not to quickly google "strongest passport" and see the myriad reports citing Germany at the top, they deserve to believe your lies. If it makes you feel better to believe that you didn't advocate naturalization (was citygirl supposed to just steal her EU passport or were you going to recommend a method of obtaining citizenship that involved some sort of rebirthing?), more power to you. I am also not sure how your "Thats [sic] not true" when I said one had to renounce to become German somehow meant that you chose your words carefully. But if it makes you feel better, great. You keep believing that you are precise in your language while the rest of us snigger over your malapropisms and inability to grasp the difference between "your" and "you're."
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @b12r
>
> You dont get all your taxes back when you leave, what you get are your
> social pension contributions back. Its only one small part of your
> "taxes".
Not true. There is a rule that applies to American teachers (possibly other nationalities, but I don't think so) who are in Germany for less than 2 years. They are tax exempt in Germany. If they stay beyond the 2 years, they do owe all the back taxes, so many teachers either put it aside or pay it and get the refund. Sometimes the school puts it aside, and if you leave, they pay it out. If you stay, they use it to pay your back taxes.
This is separate from reclaiming your retirement contributions if you stay less than 5 years. That can only be done 2 years after leaving and, as I said, is a percentage of the taxes you paid.
> @b12r
>
> You dont get all your taxes back when you leave, what you get are your
> social pension contributions back. Its only one small part of your
> "taxes".
Not true. There is a rule that applies to American teachers (possibly other nationalities, but I don't think so) who are in Germany for less than 2 years. They are tax exempt in Germany. If they stay beyond the 2 years, they do owe all the back taxes, so many teachers either put it aside or pay it and get the refund. Sometimes the school puts it aside, and if you leave, they pay it out. If you stay, they use it to pay your back taxes.
This is separate from reclaiming your retirement contributions if you stay less than 5 years. That can only be done 2 years after leaving and, as I said, is a percentage of the taxes you paid.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Those reports are opinions of claimants who have their own agenda.
The previous OP may already have had German lineage and was interested in South Germany for that reason.
Im not interested in your self appointment as the grammar police.
Its not a rule its a tax treaty, and they have always been in a grey area. They really dont apply to ITs, they apply to expats who are members of multinationals, and are working within an organization in a foreign region. They generally dont apply to foreigners who are hired by a local entity. You might get it, your more likely not too. There is no option to extend the benefit beyond those two years and its a lifetime benefit (you cant take advantage of it more than once).
Those reports are opinions of claimants who have their own agenda.
The previous OP may already have had German lineage and was interested in South Germany for that reason.
Im not interested in your self appointment as the grammar police.
Its not a rule its a tax treaty, and they have always been in a grey area. They really dont apply to ITs, they apply to expats who are members of multinationals, and are working within an organization in a foreign region. They generally dont apply to foreigners who are hired by a local entity. You might get it, your more likely not too. There is no option to extend the benefit beyond those two years and its a lifetime benefit (you cant take advantage of it more than once).
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Teaching in Germany
Those reports are based on the number of countries one can visit without a visa. We have no idea what the OP's heritage is, but if she isn't already a German citizen, she cannot obtain citizenship without renouncing, even if her parents were German. They would have had to declare her birth, which means she would already have it. Otherwise her only option is naturalisation, which requires renouncing.. But backpedal some more. It's entertaining.
And yes, the tax treaty applies to ITs. That is why schools like FIS do that withholding thing--to make it easy for teachers to stay but to make it easy for them to get their money if they leave. I know someone who got that money back, too. So yes, it is absolutely possible. Of course, now that I bring it up after correcting you, you suddenly know all about this tax treaty . . . .
And yes, the tax treaty applies to ITs. That is why schools like FIS do that withholding thing--to make it easy for teachers to stay but to make it easy for them to get their money if they leave. I know someone who got that money back, too. So yes, it is absolutely possible. Of course, now that I bring it up after correcting you, you suddenly know all about this tax treaty . . . .
Re: Teaching in Germany
I looked into what was needed to get German citizenship for me and my family. It was clear that to gain German citizenship we would have to give up our respective nationalities which just isn't in our plans. There are certain limited exceptions to this rule but they don't apply to us. Sweden has the easiest route to gaining citizenship as it is based on 5 years legal residency with good character and there is no language test or citizenship test. Unfortunately, we are still committed to working in the Middle East for the next 5 years or so and post-Brexit we don't know what our options in Western/northern Europe will be.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Which has nothing to do with a passports "strength" just because some reporter/writer says they do. No we dont have any idea what the OPs linegae is, they could just as likely be decedent from a German family on both sides and are interested in relocating to Germany for exactly that reason. In which case she obtained German Citizenship at birth and have no need to declare it, and no need to renounce anything.
No the Tax treaty does not always apply to ITs. Those ISs hang onto the coin in case the treaty doesnt apply and they end up with the tax bill.
You havent corrected anything. Ive written about tax treaties extensively in the past, you can find relevant posts here:
http://internationalschoolsreview.com/v ... aty#p19472
http://internationalschoolsreview.com/v ... aty#p10626
@Nomad68
If you do have to renounce, you can always reapply for your original citizenship after gaining German citizenship.
Which has nothing to do with a passports "strength" just because some reporter/writer says they do. No we dont have any idea what the OPs linegae is, they could just as likely be decedent from a German family on both sides and are interested in relocating to Germany for exactly that reason. In which case she obtained German Citizenship at birth and have no need to declare it, and no need to renounce anything.
No the Tax treaty does not always apply to ITs. Those ISs hang onto the coin in case the treaty doesnt apply and they end up with the tax bill.
You havent corrected anything. Ive written about tax treaties extensively in the past, you can find relevant posts here:
http://internationalschoolsreview.com/v ... aty#p19472
http://internationalschoolsreview.com/v ... aty#p10626
@Nomad68
If you do have to renounce, you can always reapply for your original citizenship after gaining German citizenship.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Teaching in Germany
Oy. Your birth has to be registered within the first year in order to be eligible for citizenship. Otherwise you have to be naturalised, which requires renouncing. So no, she is not eligible without renouncing unless she already has it (or happens to be a refugee). Again, it is not possible to obtain German citizenship without renouncing unless you meet a very specific set of requirements (your citizenship was stripped during the Nazi era or renouncing presents an undue hardship--i.e. you are a refugee), even if your parents were German.
While I suppose you could apply for your old citizenship back, you first have to apply to the German government to keep your German citizenship--something they aren't likely to grant if you just obtained it and simply are gaming the system. There has to be a strong grounds for granting that permission, and the provision is meant for native Germans, not newly minted Germans. If by some miracle, that is successful, you have to explain to your original country why you renounced in the first place, and they aren't likely to look to kindly on your flip-flopping. So I would not count on that method.
Clearly you are not informed on German citizenship law, and rather than just admit you are wrong, you keep trying to find ways in which you could be right.
And yes, the tax treaty applies to ITs--in fact, it was designed specifically for people to come over and teach English for less than two years. But sure, keep pretending you know how it works.
Also, passport strength is measured by the number of countries a holder can visit without a visa. This is simply a number, meaning it is an objective measure. Germany has topped the list for a few years now. A reporter doesn't just make this stuff up, you know.
While I suppose you could apply for your old citizenship back, you first have to apply to the German government to keep your German citizenship--something they aren't likely to grant if you just obtained it and simply are gaming the system. There has to be a strong grounds for granting that permission, and the provision is meant for native Germans, not newly minted Germans. If by some miracle, that is successful, you have to explain to your original country why you renounced in the first place, and they aren't likely to look to kindly on your flip-flopping. So I would not count on that method.
Clearly you are not informed on German citizenship law, and rather than just admit you are wrong, you keep trying to find ways in which you could be right.
And yes, the tax treaty applies to ITs--in fact, it was designed specifically for people to come over and teach English for less than two years. But sure, keep pretending you know how it works.
Also, passport strength is measured by the number of countries a holder can visit without a visa. This is simply a number, meaning it is an objective measure. Germany has topped the list for a few years now. A reporter doesn't just make this stuff up, you know.
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Thames Pirate
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Re: Teaching in Germany
The more you post, the more I will correct you. It isn't a big deal here, where people can see that you are just plain ill-informed. The problem is when you start playing these games on threads where there is nobody to contradict you because you give inaccurate information that can be misleading and can potentially negatively impact someone's life. Telling teachers that tax treaties don't apply to them when specific articles give teachers huge advantages could cost someone thousands of dollars. Telling them to move to Germany for potential citizenship when, in fact, this is not a viable option could cause people to make a poor career choice that costs them a lot of time, money, and heartache. All so you can avoid saying "I was wrong." And it isn't just a mistake on this thread--it's a pattern.
Well, PsyGuy, you are wrong. You CAN and SHOULD get your taxes back if you are in Germany for less than 2 years and have no plans to return. You CANNOT obtain German citizenship without renouncing your own (or fitting some pretty narrow categories that rarely apply to ITs). And you were wrong when you were just being contrary on my point about the strongest passport. There is an objective measure, and Germany tops it.
Please stop posting misinformation on this forum.
OP, Germany is a lovely country--clean, safe, forward-thinking, beautiful, and efficient. There are plenty of good reasons to move there. There are also reasons it isn't for everyone. Just do your homework thoroughly, as you would with anywhere else.
Can you travel? Yes. You can easily travel to a number of cool places, and not just Europe, for decent prices. Its central location makes it a travel hub, actually. And there is so much to do locally and nearby!
Well, PsyGuy, you are wrong. You CAN and SHOULD get your taxes back if you are in Germany for less than 2 years and have no plans to return. You CANNOT obtain German citizenship without renouncing your own (or fitting some pretty narrow categories that rarely apply to ITs). And you were wrong when you were just being contrary on my point about the strongest passport. There is an objective measure, and Germany tops it.
Please stop posting misinformation on this forum.
OP, Germany is a lovely country--clean, safe, forward-thinking, beautiful, and efficient. There are plenty of good reasons to move there. There are also reasons it isn't for everyone. Just do your homework thoroughly, as you would with anywhere else.
Can you travel? Yes. You can easily travel to a number of cool places, and not just Europe, for decent prices. Its central location makes it a travel hub, actually. And there is so much to do locally and nearby!
RTeply
@Thames pirate
You havent corrected anything, you are just wrong. Your scenario is true for you, because its your scenario. What applies to @Thames Pirate doesnt apply to everyone. Tax treaties generally dont apply to IT. Moving to Germany for Citizenship is absolutely a viable option.
Its a pattern of being right, unlike you, who always has to revert to the argument "well its right for me" I agree stop posting misinformation.
You havent corrected anything, you are just wrong. Your scenario is true for you, because its your scenario. What applies to @Thames Pirate doesnt apply to everyone. Tax treaties generally dont apply to IT. Moving to Germany for Citizenship is absolutely a viable option.
Its a pattern of being right, unlike you, who always has to revert to the argument "well its right for me" I agree stop posting misinformation.
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Thames Pirate
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- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Teaching in Germany
The DTT (Double Taxation Treaty), Article 20, specifically applies to teachers and students. Otherwise, yes, it does apply to teachers.
And yes, you can move to Germany for the citizenship--if you are willing to renounce your current nation.
I am not right because it's right for me. I am right because facts and laws say so. However, at this point you are like those people who believe fake news and then seek to rationalise it. You are simply claiming to be right.
Here is the German website on citizenship:
http://www.bundesauslaenderbeauftragte. ... erung.html
Pay attention to this line:
"Sie haben ihre alte Staatsangehörigkeit verloren oder geben sie auf."
Here is the passport index:
https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
And here is the DTT:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/germany.pdf
As you say, only data matters. I am backing my claims with evidence.
And yes, you can move to Germany for the citizenship--if you are willing to renounce your current nation.
I am not right because it's right for me. I am right because facts and laws say so. However, at this point you are like those people who believe fake news and then seek to rationalise it. You are simply claiming to be right.
Here is the German website on citizenship:
http://www.bundesauslaenderbeauftragte. ... erung.html
Pay attention to this line:
"Sie haben ihre alte Staatsangehörigkeit verloren oder geben sie auf."
Here is the passport index:
https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
And here is the DTT:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/germany.pdf
As you say, only data matters. I am backing my claims with evidence.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
No it doesnt, it applies to ITs that are guests of a program taught overseas. For instance DoDDs, or other study abroad and exchange programs. It doesnt apply to ITs that are hired by an LA in that region.
No you dont have to renounce if you are eligible for German citizenship. In addition for those that do need to renounce, they can apply again for citizenship after obtaining German citizenship.
No your not tight because your scenario doesnt apply to everyone or anyone outside @Thames Pirate. No you are simply claiming to be right because your scenario is right for you, and thats all your data says that @Thames Pirate has to renounce her citizenship to get German citizenship, there are many other (familiar) scenarios that dont require renunciation.
No it doesnt, it applies to ITs that are guests of a program taught overseas. For instance DoDDs, or other study abroad and exchange programs. It doesnt apply to ITs that are hired by an LA in that region.
No you dont have to renounce if you are eligible for German citizenship. In addition for those that do need to renounce, they can apply again for citizenship after obtaining German citizenship.
No your not tight because your scenario doesnt apply to everyone or anyone outside @Thames Pirate. No you are simply claiming to be right because your scenario is right for you, and thats all your data says that @Thames Pirate has to renounce her citizenship to get German citizenship, there are many other (familiar) scenarios that dont require renunciation.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1188
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Teaching in Germany
It applies to ITs. This is why ISs are familiar with the rule and have measures in place to deal with either choice by the teacher, for example, and why someone I know got that money.
Yes, you need to renounce. But of course since you say so, I guess the German government sites and everyone else must be wrong--after all, the great PsyGuy said so and offered no evidence for it other than he said so.
Sure, anyone can reapply for their old citizenship, but they would not keep the German.
None of this is my scenario. It isn't about me; it's simply easily available factual information. You can read the tax treaty yourself. You can read the German law of citizenship and naturalisation yourself. The data says so.
But at this point I have provided the evidence and made the actual laws pretty clear. You can feel free to say "nuh-uh" all you want if it makes you feel better. I will simply correct any new misinformation or provide further documentation if needed.
Yes, you need to renounce. But of course since you say so, I guess the German government sites and everyone else must be wrong--after all, the great PsyGuy said so and offered no evidence for it other than he said so.
Sure, anyone can reapply for their old citizenship, but they would not keep the German.
None of this is my scenario. It isn't about me; it's simply easily available factual information. You can read the tax treaty yourself. You can read the German law of citizenship and naturalisation yourself. The data says so.
But at this point I have provided the evidence and made the actual laws pretty clear. You can feel free to say "nuh-uh" all you want if it makes you feel better. I will simply correct any new misinformation or provide further documentation if needed.