Sure you do. At least if it is a reputable school and the contact is coming from their HR department, the vacancy is removed from the wall before fair signups, and the listing removed from online databases. Not having a physical contract in hand is pretty normal in some recruiting circles/schools. But you are right to advise caution; I would be hesitant in most instances.

We didn't have a contract in hand. We were told "pending reference checks." We have since heard from the recruiter, who asked us to follow up with two of the references because he hadn't heard back from them. We did so, and we then heard that two more references were completed. So we are in touch, we are not worried, we know the school is giving us the job, but we have no documentation. Would we be so trusting with every school? Probably not. But that is where your research and experience comes into play. PsyGuy and I are going to disagree (again!). He says contract in hand. I say it depends.

No, fairs are not synonymous with use of database, but again, why would a recruiter search through a database to find candidates (s)he will never meet in person when with the same few clicks they can find a list of people they can meet in person? They wouldn't. Meanwhile they are attending two or three SA fairs but none of the ISS fairs. That is not just because there are more SA fairs. Why would a school skip ISS BKK, then attend SA BKK and SA London? Why go to both SA fairs but not the major ISS fair? They are finding what they need at SA BKK and SA London, but not at ISS BKK. They aren't bothering with ISS at all.

You say ISS has the best candidates, but again, that is your perceived elitism talking. What makes you say that? What is an eliminating factor or barrier for a teacher being listed for ISS that is not a problem for SA? What makes an ISS teacher a better candidate? And if that were really the case, why would the schools not stick with ISS? They would find all they needed through ISS and wouldn't need to bother with SA, which is a much newer company. Instead they quit going to ISS fairs and started going to SA fairs. Not just attending both, but actually going to SA over ISS. That means they were finding what they needed at SA and not ISS. Therefore they are not recruiting with ISS.

You also say that smaller is better because they are more selective, but again, what is the barrier for ISS for schools that doesn't exist for SA? You say ISS is more selective, but ISS still represents a lot of "junk," too. Meanwhile good but lesser known or newer schools aren't listed with ISS but are with SA. Why is that? Because they recognize that ISS is not valuable to them and that they can have their needs met through SA. Furthermore, the point I made was about geography. Some people don't care about teaching in a crummy school as long as it's in Europe. So again, SA has the edge there.

Both agencies accept good AND bad candidates and good AND bad schools. There is no elite status on either side except in your mind. Meanwhile the active recruiting happens at SA, not ISS. Perceptions of elitism are meaningless (just like you always say, it's the offers that count). Again, a recruiter telling me something IS more meaningful because he is telling me his strategy--and you are not a recruiter, so your perception does nothing to convince me that recruiters are looking at ISS. The behavior of his school matches the behavior of other schools, and he did say that was the direction in which his peers were also moving. So yes, I give it some weight. Far more weight than your baseless "better candidates" claim! I would be foolish not to listen to a recruiter talking about recruiting strategies, and even more foolish to take your advice regarding what is elite over his advice on what schools are actually doing.

So yes, for Europe, SA is the better of the two. If I were to sign up with another agency and were looking at Europe, it would be CIS over ISS.

And I said the same thing to @sdakota you did. If you are highly specific, go directly to the schools. If you are a bit broader, go with the agency.

Oh, CIS is absolutely one of the better options for the EU. However, the question was ISS vs. SA.

You say ISS, but I wonder why you are insistent. If schools are not using the agency, then the database is meaningless. Why would they look through the ISS database when they are going to the SA fair? They don't. They look through the SA database because, as you have pointed out, ITs are often similar. Why look through multiple databases when you can get so many good candidates through just one and then plan your fair meet and greet? Many European schools attend more than one SA fair. That means they are actively recruiting through SA. They are looking at those candidates. They are searching the SA database. They are NOT then going to do the same for ISS when they aren't even attending the fairs, not even the iFair. Fair attendance isn't everything, but it IS indicative of where they are searching for candidates.

When we started IT, a friend (who had worked in WE) told us to sign up with ISS as the only way to get a job. Five years ago we attended an ISS fair in SF. There were not a ton of European schools. There are even fewer now. European schools are no longer using ISS (except a few holdouts like Stavanger, who has been using ISS for decades). They used to be THE agency, just as UNI used to be THE fair. Times have changed. Using common sense and looking at the evidence (where schools are going, for example) tells us this. The fact that a WE recruiter told me exactly that--and I only asked because I suspected as much based on other evidence--is further proof.

Schools aren't using the ISS database to find their candidates. They are using SA and independent recruiting through their websites and things like Schrole or direct applications. After all, even if they are going to the fair just to do that F2F meeting as you say the best schools do, they do still have to GO to the fair. If they were finding what they needed via ISS, they could save money and go to the iFairs, too. They aren't doing that.

Meanwhile, candidates can search either database. Most schools in WE pop up in both, but SA has the bigger database. Yes, there are schools in one or the other, and yes, there are schools in neither, but ultimately SA has more. As a candidate, I want the bigger database (always). I can do my own cutting if I don't think a school is worthy, but because ITs have different needs just as schools do, why let ISS decide what might not work for me? The bigger database lets the IT make that decision. There is NO reason to go with the smaller database other than a perceived elitism that nobody but you seems to recognize--after all, there is still plenty of "poo," as you like to call it, at ISS.

The database is meaningless if schools aren't using it to search for candidates.

Sorry PsyGuy, but on this one you are just plain wrong.

@sdakota
Yes and no. It depends on HOW location specific you are. If you only want to work in Denmark, for example, yes, you could apply independently. However, if you are looking at most places in Europe or are Europe-plus-a-few-places, then an agency might make sense. The agencies also offer a place to store references, documents, etc. and offer access to fairs for that meet-and-greet. If Brussels, Helsinki, and Madrid all want a f2f, it's cheaper and easier to go to the SA London fair, for example, than to travel to all three cities--and you have options if you get none of the three.

Knowing nothing about PsyGuy's career, I will not bash him or it. As I said, he does have a lot of knowledge and provides a valuable perspective. It's just a bit disparaging of others at times.

No, it isn't a Disney movie, but you are a bit it isn't a horror movie, either. Yes, a dose of realism is fine, and you are good at providing that. However, you are so negative that you are discouraging, and there is no need for that. You make everybody feel that they can only qualify for the crummy schools, and that just isn't so. Reality is not as negative as you paint it. Telling someone they are less competitive because they lack IB experience is reality. Telling someone they "might" end up at a lower Tier 3 and that because they want a good school for their kids they are tourist teachers is harsh. Telling someone that they are probably less competitive and to be realistic, but aim high because you never know and it sometimes happens is not pixie dust--it's encouragement.

What you say is true for any job--candidates are often indistinct, so they need to make their resumes jump off the page in other ways. I have never denied that, all things being equal, the kids are a factor, but I have also pointed out that if a school wants you, they don't care, so you have to make a school want you.

Do you know anyone at Bangladesh? I do. Their pay is great, the school is great, but the country is currently basically on lockdown. So if someone says they don't care about location but want a good school, why not suggest it? It offers a good work environment, staff LIKE working there, great education for kids, save some money . . . . No, it isn't Japan, but a newbie is not likely to get Japan. So if someone is looking for a foot in the door that still allows their kids to attend a good school, that is a pleasant work environment, and that will allow them to get IT experience, what's so bad about suggesting it? It IS a good school--there are good schools in hardship locations all over the world. As a woman I would never work in Saudi Arabia because to me, that's hardship. There are tons of women who don't mind or even enjoy being driven around. Bangladesh may not suit YOU, but it does suit a lot of people, and my friends like the school enough that they opted to stay (and they are very experienced ITs with top resumes).

Elitism is not a straw man argument simply because you DO display elitism. You may not do it consciously, but you tell every teacher on here that they are not going to get what they are seeking or that they don't stack up. Many posters need a reality check, sure, and I have no problems saying that they are not as competitive or that they could improve X on their resume. But many already know those things, and instead of saying realistic things like "you are competitive in X market), you tell everyone to shoot for the bottom. You create a scoring system, then proceed to trash it for each individual to make sure they score lower, and you tell people who are pre-recruited at fairs (something you claim is mostly reserved for "rockstar" ITs) that they must have been recruited by lesser schools. Yes, you are an elitist. The air must be awfully thin up there. As for schools, yes, there are rockstar teachers everywhere. They just might not be rockstars on paper yet because they are new or don't have a certain checkmark on their application (yet is generally the key word here). There are tons of rockstars on paper who haven't updated their practice in years and phone it in every day simply because they ARE busy being the tourist teachers. And here is the reality of elite unis: They will recognize the elite prep schools of their host nations, sure, but a school like Harvard isn't going to differentiate between Bavarian International School and Munich International School, while teachers most certainly would! You are an elitist for TEACHING. You also fail to recognize that a good school like Bangladesh can allow a capable kid to get a 45 on his IB diploma just as easily as IS Bangkok can. It's just not as much fun to live in Dhaka. So when someone says they want a good school for their kids, you can't compare across regions. Isn't that what you always say anyway?

In spite of your elitism, you do provide a lot of valuable insights for this board, and a reality check is sometimes needed. I have said as much. You are well informed on how to navigate certifications, for example. And you do provide entertainment, so it's nice to have you as a regular poster. Just remember that you are not alone in your insights, knowledge, etc. and that the experiences of others may rival or even trump yours sometimes. It's okay to ignore certain topics or to admit ignorance or even--gasp--to admit you are wrong from time to time.

And the larger database matters because it isn't all just the bottom that fills it. There is trash on both databases, and it is often easy to identify. The bigger database casts a wider net, though, so newer, smaller schools that might be fantastic places to work might not appear on the smaller database. Just because a school doesn't have a top reputation (again, yet is a key word here) doesn't mean it's trash. It may not be elite, but it can still be a great place! So if you are wanting to cast a wider net, why not go with the database that casts a wider net?

Which nobody suggested.

No, he said that was their last year doing anything with ISS. They still show up on the interactive map for ISS (and I am assuming therefore the database), but they don't attend any events, etc. and haven't since that year. If you look at the list of schools for recruiting fairs for ISS, you will see only a handful of European schools at all. BKK had two--AAS Moscow and QSI (which hardly counts), Seattle had NONE, and Atlanta, which is late in the season, has 11, with one of them QSI again. SA London had over 40 (their BKK list is no longer online). No schools from Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or the UK (among others) attended physical ISS fairs at all. Only one each from France, Italy, Netherlands, and Spain attended. So slim pickings. Only one or two additional European schools attended the iFairs, and any school can Skype! So they aren't actively using ISS for recruiting.

So if you are going by the ISS website map, great--there are roughly equal numbers of European schools on the two (though I would argue that Search still has a few more--look at Denmark, for example--only Copenhagen shows up, while Search also has Esbjerg and Aarhus, both of which are newer). If you are going by fair attendance, which is more indicative of active recruiting through an agency, ISS's European contingent is almost non-existent. Granted, they do have some quality schools (AS Paris, for example)--but those same schools are listed with SA as well. If you want a job in Europe, you should go through SA, not ISS.

Again, when a recruiter tells me to pick the other agency because they are better, I'm going with that. He backed up his words with action--as I said, that school no longer actively attends ISS fairs. Furthermore, when a European school that shows up in both databases sends someone all the way to BKK but only for SA and not ISS even though the BKK fair really required missing no school at all because it came first and just at the tail end of winter holidays? That tells me European schools are actively using SA but not ISS.

Sorry, but appearing in the database is meaningless if the school is not actively recruiting using the agency.

Congrats! Best wishes for your new job!

Click through the schools attending the fairs. You will see only a handful of European schools represented.

I once had a conversation with a recruiter (no, we were not interested in his school; our conversation was based on a shared native language) from a top notch school in a desired WE country while at an ISS fair. He told me straight up to go with SA. His school no longer attends the ISS fairs.

I meant both as in use an agency and apply directly, not in overlapping agencies as that was what the OP asked and ultimately did.

And here's where I have issues with PsyGuy. His advice is often good and grounded in truth, even if it is sometimes harsh. There are areas in which he is knowledgeable. However, his "you aren't good enough" mantra, no matter who you are, isn't designed to actually push people to be better, but to belittle.

Yes, 2 kids are a cost--but there are frankly hundreds of teachers with 2 kids at the top tiers of IT. It might be a deciding factor if there are two candidates of equal caliber, but it is by no means as significant a downer as PsyGuy indicates IF you and your partner are strong candidates otherwise.

PsyGuy reads wanting a great education for your kids as tourist teacher (sidewalk cafe in Paris style), while you say you want a school that will challenge your kids and help them grow. Well, Bangladesh is a great example--the school is really good, but the country is not, so they have a hard time keeping teachers. However, your kids can get fantastic opportunities at a school like that. No, they may not have the reputation of Eton, but then again, most schools don't--only Eton does. Regardless, education is what you make of it, so if opportunities exist, does it matter where they are? No, other than name recognition/elitism. Those elite unis will take someone who took ownership of good or even limited opportunities over someone who coasted at top schools. I went to one of those unis, so I am speaking from experience. Even the best ISs are still just schools at the end of the day, and elite universities won't value one over the other.

SA does have the larger database, but if your goal is to cast your net wide, the bigger database is an advantage. Furthermore, there is a geographic component. ISS doesn't have a heavy European presence. Since you will have to do your homework regardless, why not cast the wider net? The research on quality of individual schools is your own responsibility, and it requires networking, reading between the lines, and a whole lot of internet searching. Search allows for casting the wider net. Thus my recommendation. However, non-premium agencies would work for what you want, too.

ASPs are, as PG says (and I said), only useful if the school needs them--but they appear on his scoring scale, so make your own decisions there. I have already said which ones are most likely to be valuable to a school. There is also the possibility of bringing your own new programs to a school, particularly if you have a special talent. That could be a point in your favor, but don't count on it unless it really is that outstanding.

PG also says rockstar ITs exist, but he refuses to acknowledge who is one. If you have the points on his scale? Nope. If you get pre-recruited at a major fair? Nope. Only if you are not a regular poster on here, apparently, as nobody on here seems to qualify in his book.

Meanwhile he says collaboration is for lesser ITs, and I can say with certainty that this attitude shows his true elitism. Collaboration isn't about needing help; it's about creating a more integrated curriculum that is BETTER FOR KIDS. It is about recognizing that others may have ideas that are BETTER FOR KIDS even as you share your ideas with your colleagues because they might be BETTER FOR KIDS. It is a mindset about doing what is BEST FOR KIDS, egos aside.

You find mediocre teachers in the most prestigious of schools just as you find top notch teachers in the lower tiers simply because they don't measure up on paper yet. Yes, curriculum experience is a deciding factor, and of course the teacher with IB experience is better than the one without ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL and of course it is used as a weeding method. Nobody denies those things. However, schools can and do interview people without experience because something else in the application or in the individual caught their attention, and sometimes they recognize that the lack of experience is simply a "yet" that can be remedied within a year. So IF a good teacher can get a foot in the door (be it in the elevator at a fair, through a mutual contact, or some other way), he or she can get by without the experience simply because good teaching cannot be captured on a paper application.

I would say that a good teacher in any curriculum can be good in most any system simply because good teaching is about identifying and responding to the needs of the kids. No, it isn't necessarily seamless, but good teachers are, by nature, adaptable; as such they will make that transition easily enough, and they will often do it better than a mediocre teacher with experience. The best administrators recognize this. Those focused on elitist theories like those you are espousing do not, and in the long run the school suffers.

We do agree on the math credential and on expanding your experience so that you can be marketable more broadly. It is common for schools to hire one and "fit in" the other teaching partner, so making it easy to plug you in is helpful. They may not plug you in at IB DP Physics, but they may very well give you some MYP math and science and move the previous person over to the DP Physics job.

Again, cast a wide net, including teaching AND admin jobs for your partner at a range of schools. My bet is you will get a good job.

I would also point out that there is a geographical component. ISS doesn't have as many active European schools, so if Europe is on your short list, Search is the better option. While there are some European schools (good ones) recruiting at fairs through ISS, there are far more with SA and CIS.

Congrats! I would have advocated the "both" approach, and it sounds like that's what you did--and it worked for you both ways.

Well done, and best wishes in Europe!

@magician

There is no such thing as a rockstar teacher. It's PsyGuy's word for a teacher whom top ISs want. The problem is that he uses the term in an elitist way when the reality is that the term is very loose at best.

He is right in a few things--schools often need to find ways to whittle down applicant pools, and a certain set of minimums is an easy way to do that. So rockstar teacher often means IS experience (often gained in less desirable areas), curriculum experience (often IB), part of a couple with no dependents when both teachers could fill a vacancy, advanced degrees, multiple certifications, etc. His points system, while a guide only, is actually reasonably accurate in accounting for desirability. That said, he rarely allows for anyone to actually be a rockstar, even when they score into the masterclass teacher category on his points system. ;)

Unfortunately, the problem arises when top schools choose people who look good on paper and pass over awesome teachers who might not have taught IB, for example. The reality is that good teaching is good teaching, and a good teacher can be awesome in a top school even without IB experience. Smart schools recognize this, and when an elite school might pass on someone simply because of a check box (understandably, given the number of applicants and the need to get the candidate pool down), a first or second tier school (i.e. a good school) might snap them up. A good teacher will have the references, etc. that will help fill the holes in the checklist--however, schools will need to look at those references or whatever.

PG will tell you that rockstar teachers are pre-recruited at fairs or even hired without the fairs. Well, this is true--but lots of schools hire before the fairs, counting on this reputation and a bit of flattery to fill their positions with their first choices. They use the lure of escaping the pressure and desperation of a fair to attract a teacher. Meanwhile, top schools DO hire at fairs. Therefore one must be careful not to assume correlation = causation.

If you are a good teacher, you are a good teacher in IB or NC. Those are just the framework around which you build your good teaching.

@Afouch

You will find something good, I'm sure. Yes, it is absolutely helpful to get a math cert as schools will be hesitant or sometimes unable to hire you for something for which you are not certified (remember, visas and the like may require it). So just saying you can teach it is not enough.

As for admin, it is not uncommon to promote from within, so without full admin experience, it's unlikely he'll be a contender for those jobs. But then again, he might very well be, and it can't hurt to apply, right? He could also apply for lesser leadership roles--curriculum coordination, etc.--if they suit. It really depends on the school, the vacancy, the strength of your application beyond what you've shared here, and a bit of luck in terms of who is looking at the apps, etc.

You sound like us a few years ago--willing to be picky (as I said, we went to a fair knowing the chances of walking away without a job were good and that we were just testing the waters--and indeed that is what happened). There are TONS of good schools (yes, even more garbage, but I doubt you'll end up in the garbage schools simply based on the strength of your application and the way you present yourselves here). You'll find something great. I look forward to hearing about your continued search!