Working in Nantong, China

[Cloud7]

Anyone here working in Nantong, China? Have an offer to join an IS there and would like some feedback from anyone who's currently living and teaching there.

Particularly on the pollution levels and cost of living, as it's just north of Shanghai.

Any info will be greatly appreciated.

[eion_padraig]

I hear their IKEA is a nice place to nap; http://shanghaiist.com/2017/05/30/ikea-nappers.php

You probably won't find anyone on the forums who is specifically in Nantong, but there's someone in Changshu and some Suzhou based folks. There are a lot more who live in Shanghai or have lived in Shanghai.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that this are has an IKEA. It's probably a bit more developed than I would have thought. Costs in China generally come down to how much you go out drinking, how much you go out eating at mid - high end restaurants, how much foreign food you eat and how much you spend during your vacations. People who do very little of the first three and take cheap holidays in China or Southeast Asia can save half or more of their pay. Obviously less if you have kids.

If you go to Shanghai every weekend to go have fun, you could burn through money very quickly. But general costs of living are pretty low. Transportation costs within a city are low unless you are always taking taxis everywhere. General food costs are low and inexpensive meals out (noodles, rice dishes, dumplings) can be USD$2 - 3. Getting a big bottle of cheep beer from the 7 - 11 is less than USD$1, but a smaller bottle of the same beer (Qingdao) could run you USD$4 - 5 in a bar.

Pollution levels will probably comparable to Suzhou. The issue is that you won't get foreign (ie US consulate/Embassy) pollution monitoring stations, so accurate data will be hard to find.

Good luck.

[Cloud7]

Thanks, mate!

Since Nantong is just 3 hours drive north from Shanghai, I guess anyone who's in Shanghai would be able to give some feedback too.

I'm a bit concerned about the quality of their air, water and food.... heard a lot of horror stories!

Also, is it a norm to pay you in 3 different components?

My contract states RMB4,000 monthly salary, RMB4,000 fixed monthly allowance (both after tax) and RMB7,000 monthly cash payment, which I "do not have to pay Chinese Income Tax" as I "can declare it in the country of my choice and pay taxes there".

Free furnished accommodation and tuition for 2 kids rounds up the package.

Any thoughts?

[WinterFerret]

By Nantong I hope you also mean Nantong city, which has around 6 million people. There are a few satelite cities that are pretty rural despite being in the concrete jungle that is Jiangsu province. I've been to the city a couple of times, it came off as a completely ordinary Chinese city of 6 million people. It has some parks and riverways that are common to Jiangsu, but nothing special to someone who has been to Suzhou/Wuxi/Changzhou/etc.

The city doesn't even have a rail station, (I've heard they are building one to Shanghai, it might be finished soon) so you will have to take the bus/car to Shanghai. People living in Nanjing are closer to Shanghai than you are due to the high speed train.

Also while tax avoidance is common in China, it doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes, it just means you are concealing your income from the government. If the government finds out that your income is much higher than reported, they can demand that taxes be paid on the undeclared amount. So far teachers and schools have been able to get away with declaring very low salaries to avoid taxes.

[Overhere]

I may be reading your post wrong, but a monthly salary of 15,000 rmb no matter how they label it isn't very much.

[PsyGuy]

The salary you are being offered is below the minimum for the general IE market. The bottom of the third tier is around RMB20K, below that and your looking at ESOL coin.

It is not abnormal for an IS to has separate line items for various parts of your compensation, such as allowances and stipends, though in your case its because your IS is essentially defrauding someone in government.
There is no such thing as a tax free portion of salary, I agree with @WinterFerret, your IS is simply complicit with you in illegal tax avoidance. There is likely a benefit to the IS as well, as they may only have a license to operate a language ES, and they want their payroll records to look like they match the market rates for ETs. They probably have a relationship with someone that allows them to conduct business this way.
I would not be surprised if you do have the actual state mandated contract that at some point you will be asked to sign a state mandated contract that only lists the fixed allowance and salary, and not the "monthly cash payment".

There isnt much there, so if you have to get to Shanghai every weekend for your entertainment, then depending how much eating and drinking going out matters to you is whats basically going to effect your savings potential. If all you do in Nantong is work and are a homebody you could save a significant amount of your otherwise pitiful salary.

Your going to be shocked as far as sanitation, basically you want to make sure everything you eat out is served very hot to you. Many Chinese want their food from market as fresh as possible, this means that most seafood will be alive in tanks, other cuts of meet, you want cut to order.
You cant drink the water from the tap anywhere in China (exception, some apartments flats have their own filtering systems). You will get your water for drinking from a large vacuum flask in your apartment/flat). If you get a drink make sure it was from an air conditioned cooler, and not from an ice chest, as the ice may have been with unfiltered water.
The air is better than in Shanghai.

[Cloud7]

Wow, everyone, thanks for your comments.

@ WinterFerret: yup, I meant Nantong City.

@PsyGuy, they actually gave me two contracts to sign: Contract A is with the school, for the RMB4,000 monthly salary + RMB4,000 fixed monthly allowance. Contract B is with a company that has no obvious links to the school for "services"; this pays the RMB7,000 cash monthly. The "services" is for what I do at the school, naturally.

So, yeah, it's a total of RMB15,000 and not only is it not much in the first place, it sounds like an iffy way to try and pay less income taxes. I'm a homebody so all I need is an internet connection and I'll have my weekend entertainment! But I'm not sure I want to be . to defrauding the Chinese Gov. of income taxes. Nobody is going to be on my side if I end up on the wrong side of the law over this.

[PsyGuy]

@Cloud7

::DANGER, DANGER::

Run, run far away. It would be one thing if the actual IS was paying you "under the table", or the owner was basically sliding an envelope of coin into your teacher box, etc.. but you have no idea what this other company is, or even if this other company exists, further this other company could be involved in more serious criminal enterprise. trafficking, narcotics, organized crime, you have no clue, and you could find yourself being subject to arrest and detention. In China the police have very deep reaching powers. They can hold you (detention) for up to 30 days with neither charge or probable cause. Once formally arrested you can be held in confinement for another 60 days, but with extensions for 6 months before the filing of a formal indictment. Thats a long time to be in a Chinese prison/jail. During that time and it would be horrible, you would likely be pushed to confess to various crimes and offenses.

This is an easy one, politely decline their offer and move on.










Still here, Okay if for some air headed reason you continue to accept this offer, as low as it is (I cant imagine why, you can teach ESOL for the same coin). You will need to have a very good exit plan:

1) You literally and realistically need a go bag ready by the door, such that you can say good by and exit in something under 2 minutes.

2) Dont keep ANYTHING of value or importance at the IS. This includes and its very important your passport. I would STRONGLY recommend that you obtain 2 passports, which in the US and UK can be done in instances of need. Just include a letter stating you travel between regions that are hostile to one another and a second passport will facilitate your travel between the two. These second passports are only valid for two years.

3) You need to develop a heightened sense of awareness. What you want to look for is attempts to "groom you". If leadership or ownership (especially ownership) wants to introduce you to so and so and invites you by yourself or a small group of other ITs out to drinks and possible social entertainment be very weary. If they start asking you for favors or services like keeping boxes or items in your apartment or classroom that you dont know what the contents are be very concerned. Who are your neighbors, are they all other ITs or is the apartment complex shared by mostly people that work night jobs or in various social clubs.

4) Whats the quality of the IS, does it feel like a school or a business? You need to understand and be aware that the entire operation of the IS could be little more than a front business for money laundering, etc.

5) If you get the word and decide to run You need to determine two things: is this preemptive (your risk tolerance is exceeded) or emergent (your racing against the brute squad or the police).
If this is Preemptive than your just pulling a runner. Pick a Friday right after your salary dispersment. Book a flight the week or two before, take your bags and head to the airport (Shanghai) and leave for somewhere else. Home if you must, preferably another IS if you can, and somewhere (not China) that can support a large ESOL population, with easy immigration rules/laws (Thailand, S. Korea, Taiwan, etc..)
If this is emergent (meaning your literally expecting a knock on your door any minute its different.
Take the SIM card out of your phone and power it down. Your go bag should have a cheap flip or feature phone, or pick one up along the way. You want to head away from Shanghai and not to the embassy. Its one of the first places that foreigners will go is the closest embassy. You want to do the opposite, so from Shanghai your going to go to Guangzhou (Z) by bus, but your going to take a car/taxi to a nearby city first and catch the bus there. Once in GZ you have a choice either 1) Go to your embassy or 2) Travel from GZ to Shenzhen by bus. Once there you can cross the border into HK (car, train, bus or water taxi), and then either go too your embassy and/or fly out. Basically, you will not be able to fly out of mainland China on your main passport. You will want to use the other 2 year passport (has a different passport number in it).
Theres more such as credit cards, internet, what to wear, etc. but the basics are move fast, keep a low profile, and not be trackable. Most of us would be caught by our electronics and digital foot prints, your goal isnt to vanish its to be indistinct from the rest of the flow of humanity and avoiding using your passport as much as possible.

[Cloud7]

@PsyGuy

Wow... just wow.

Ok, rejecting the offer seems a far safer bet. It's not even a lucrative salary in the 1st place so kinda a no-brainer.

The co. (that is going to pay the RMB7,000 monthly in cash) seems to be expressly set up for this purpose (i.e. to avoid paying taxes). Unlikely to be any other criminal activity going on as the school itself is owned by an established and reputable education group with a HQ based in a first world country where the rule of law holds supreme (with many other schools and learning centres in said country) BUT of course, we never know, right?

And thanks a lot for your feedback!

[PsyGuy]

@Cloud7

I dont buy it, In IE there is no such thing as a "little dirty". Any reputable and established education group simply wouldnt organize their business practices this way. There is no benefit to them, they arent owing the tax, you are. The cost of operations to avoid the taxes on that kind of salary would likely cost more or be negligible compared to simply paying the tax. Have you verified their claims with this established education group and by reliable and authoritative third . sources, or did they just tell you?

Most of the major and successful organized crime groups are set up in 1st world countries because they have a history of providing strong rights for the accused. The Yakuza are so successful in JP because the laws provide their members certain protections. Its a lot more work and cost establishing a criminal enterprise in a place that doesnt have strong rule of law, where they can just throw you in a cell and leave you there. Lawyers are cheaper than an army.

Its just not worth it at that level of comp, for the region, make the coin RMB50K+/month and then the metrics change. About the only way to make that offer attractive is if your young and relatively new to IE and there is an easy pathway to leadership. Such as you negotiate your first year as HOD, and the next year you move up too senior leadership (AP/VP/DP) (with the appropriate increase in comp).

[Cloud7]

@PsyGuy

Yes, I've verified that the school is owned by this reputable and established education group and in fact, my dealings have been directly with this education group (interview was conducted by the CEO of said education group).

I suspect they do it this way to make it harder for us to sue them if anything goes wrong.

Anyway, whatever the reason they have for doing it this way, I'm not buying in so it's moot.

Thanks again.

[eion_padraig]

If you're a certified teacher, even without 2 years of experience, you should be able to get a higher salary than 15,000 RMB/month with housing included.

[WinterFerret]

@PsyGuy

The two contract thing doesn't mean there is a second company hiring OP and placing him at the school, or that there is anything shady that OP doesn't know about, it's part of the tax avoidance thing. OP signs a fake contract with the low salary that is used for government documentation, the other contract is the 'contract' between school and teacher. The school has a financial reason for doing this, they are so cheap that in order for their salary to be 'acceptable' (still really low in this case) they need to avoid paying tax on the salary. China has a problem attracting enough licensed teachers, I've seen and heard of higher end tier 3 schools also doing this. (offer salary in the 20-30k range, but report 4-12k to the government and pay the rest in a sneaky way)

@Cloud7

The pay is low, and the location kinda sucks. Jiangsu has a lot of international schools, get one in a city at least on the high speed train. Nantong is boring compared to other large Jiangsu cities, and traveling from Nantong to Shanghai sucks. First you need to get to Nantong bus station, then the 2-3 hour bus ride to Shanghai, going through Shanghai traffic. Now you're at the crowded Shanghai bus station, need to take the crowded subway to wherever you wanted to go. Traveling by long distance bus is an 'experience' in China, but not something you want to rely on.

[Cloud7]

@WinterFerret

Heh, I've tried taking the train in Mumbai ONCE, just to see what it was like to be jammed like a sardine into a non-airconditioned box with the local Indians (and me the only foreigner there). Actually, I think the sardines had more space in the tin compared to me and that train! Plus, the locals were happily climbing up onto the roof and sitting outside in the breeze while I was sweating it out inside! In fact, I seriously thought about joining them up there at some point during the journey!

So, even if the salary was high enough to entice me to work there, I doubt very much if I'd be going into Shanghai much. Maybe just ONCE, for the experience. LOL... anyway, the salary is far too low as it is, and packaged in such an iffy manner. So, I'll pass.

Thanks for your feedback too.

[PsyGuy]

@WinterFerret

Yes it does, the LW states "The co. (that is going to pay the RMB7,000 monthly in cash) seems to be expressly set up for this purpose (i.e. to avoid paying taxes).".
Im familiar with the process, and how it works. Id passably accept the rational of a third company being established for this purpose if the salary was in the RMB30K range, but this salary is so low its not even in the RMB20K range, and its not even a sizable difference. Were not talking a RMB10K salary and RMB20K in coin. Its RMB8K and only RMB7K in coin, I just cant see how at that scale there is any financial gain or incentive in operating a shell company to dole out the coin. It would be easier and less costly just to have someone in ownership or leadership pass out envelopes. On top of that this is supposedly a well established education group, thats passing the envelopes of coin, cant see a reputable education group or business doing this for salaries at that level, the downside of exposure out-ways any gain

It doesnt mean there isnt something shady going on either.