Visiting an IS
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Visiting an IS
The reward isn't the tour, but the job or at least the interview. Getting to tour a campus with leadership isn't the goal. Lying to get a tour accomplishes the tour but hurts your end game of landing a job. We were no worse off for school number 5 but better off at the other four and ultimately successful with dream school. I'll take the job over the missed tour any day.
Re: Visiting an IS
TP is right.
Ask for a school tour and you get an Admissions person or someone else with no link to hiring.
Asking for a tour from the Principal won't get you one. Principals don't generally do that kind of thing - it's why we train the Admissions people to do it. Even a small school can have a dozen tours a week, and the Principal just can't start taking them on.
If you somehow trick the Principal into doing it, and he/she finds out that you're just inventing a back door to get an interview you wouldn't otherwise have gotten... Well, I won't admire your creativity. I'll just make a mental note that you think it's acceptable to lie to me to get what you want.
Ask for a school tour and you get an Admissions person or someone else with no link to hiring.
Asking for a tour from the Principal won't get you one. Principals don't generally do that kind of thing - it's why we train the Admissions people to do it. Even a small school can have a dozen tours a week, and the Principal just can't start taking them on.
If you somehow trick the Principal into doing it, and he/she finds out that you're just inventing a back door to get an interview you wouldn't otherwise have gotten... Well, I won't admire your creativity. I'll just make a mental note that you think it's acceptable to lie to me to get what you want.
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helloiswill
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:39 am
Re: Visiting an IS
Last summer I sent emails asking to stop by three several schools to see the campus. One school politely declined, another didn't respond and the third offered me an interview with the principal. I don't think reaching out to a school, especially in the summer when there is a lull in recruitment, hurts -- you might meet someone who can help your future application. I ended up not visiting the school because I was out of the country by the time they got back to me. However, I got the sense that if I had met the principal, he may have given me a job on the spot.
Will
Will
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@Thames pirate
Its not lying, if you spin it right. Its meeting with leadership, and if seeking an audience to evaluate an IS for a friend gets you a yes instead of a no, thats the goal. No accomplishes nothing.
@sid
Is also in leadership and has an agenda. The idea that leadership is going to find out your ulterior motives is absurd (unless your just really bad at subterfuge).
If senior leadership wont meet with you, then they wont meet with you, the reason is no longer relevant.
@helloiswill
I dont disagree, in general. If youre there, and they are there, and it works out great. In your case though it didnt work out very well. You basically got 2 noes, and you dont know what the leadership at those that said no is thinking. Could have ultimately done more harm than good, and youll never know.
Its a risk and it has potential rewards, my view is that ITs who want an ad hoc interview in personal always seem to be a bit on the desperate side.
Its not lying, if you spin it right. Its meeting with leadership, and if seeking an audience to evaluate an IS for a friend gets you a yes instead of a no, thats the goal. No accomplishes nothing.
@sid
Is also in leadership and has an agenda. The idea that leadership is going to find out your ulterior motives is absurd (unless your just really bad at subterfuge).
If senior leadership wont meet with you, then they wont meet with you, the reason is no longer relevant.
@helloiswill
I dont disagree, in general. If youre there, and they are there, and it works out great. In your case though it didnt work out very well. You basically got 2 noes, and you dont know what the leadership at those that said no is thinking. Could have ultimately done more harm than good, and youll never know.
Its a risk and it has potential rewards, my view is that ITs who want an ad hoc interview in personal always seem to be a bit on the desperate side.
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helloiswill
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:39 am
Re: Visiting an IS
@psyguy
Any school that considered an email that politely asked to stop by the campus while in the country a mark against me is a school I'd rather skip. Any potential harm I did to my application was a bullet dodged. And, FWIW, I didn't ask for the interview, the school proposed it.
Any school that considered an email that politely asked to stop by the campus while in the country a mark against me is a school I'd rather skip. Any potential harm I did to my application was a bullet dodged. And, FWIW, I didn't ask for the interview, the school proposed it.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Visiting an IS
Which was the point I was making about the minimal risk. Schools (good ones) don't hold a polite request against you. There is really not much harm in asking as long as one is professional. However, there Is harm in lying, especially when there is no reason to do so.
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@Thames Pirate
Your point is wrong. There are "good" ISs, upper tier ISs that would hold such a request against an IT. @helloiswill may elect to skip such an IS, thats their prerogative, but it doesnt change the error that there are "good ISs" that would hold it against an IT.
The risk of being discovered in a subterfuge is less than the risk of being denied the request or having the request held against the IT. The reason to do it is of course to get a meeting you would not otherwise be granted.
Your point is wrong. There are "good" ISs, upper tier ISs that would hold such a request against an IT. @helloiswill may elect to skip such an IS, thats their prerogative, but it doesnt change the error that there are "good ISs" that would hold it against an IT.
The risk of being discovered in a subterfuge is less than the risk of being denied the request or having the request held against the IT. The reason to do it is of course to get a meeting you would not otherwise be granted.
Re: Visiting an IS
@Dave, why on earth would you want to begin what could become an employee/employer relationship with a stupid, pointless lie? How could this “advice” possibly help someone?
"My advice is to present yourself as potential parents who want to enroll a child, and then let it drop that you are a IT/DT as well. Regardless. Dont just drop by, but contact the admissions office or leadership through the posted application system."
What would be the first questions an administrator would ask if you managed to see one on such a pretext? “How old are your children?” “Who do you work for?” “When are you being relocated here?” “Where do you live?” “Where do your children go to school?”
How many lies do you plan to tell? And then, miraculously, you manage to scam a job. Of course that would be as a local hire since you’re coming to the country anyway or you’re in country. Next question: “Where are your children?”
Or what about your next gambit? “I’m asking on behalf of a friend.” The same series of questions. The same lies. Then you drop the line that you’re looking for a job as well. Do you really think that people wouldn’t see through a gambit so transparent?
As it happens, I have no problem showing prospective candidates around school. Why would I? And if I’m not available, someone else would. From time to time, after a long and arduous process, I’ve even hired one or two. So why not tell the truth? If it works, good for you. If it doesn’t, so what?
Your advice to others is always the same: lie, cheat, fraud, deceive – even when there is no purpose in it. Eventually people like you get caught out – as did that teacher I mentioned a while ago – who claimed on his resume to have worked in places that didn’t exist, had referees that didn’t exist and boasted of qualifications from Texas he hadn’t earned.
“A pathological liar is someone who compulsively tells lies or fabricates information. They may not be completely rooted in reality, believing the lies they tell, often in an effort to remedy low self-esteem. To spot a pathological liar, pay attention to their behavior and body language, such as excessive eye contact. Also, listen for any inconsistencies in their stories. Problems like substance abuse, and a history of unstable relationships, are all indications someone may be a pathological liar.”
"My advice is to present yourself as potential parents who want to enroll a child, and then let it drop that you are a IT/DT as well. Regardless. Dont just drop by, but contact the admissions office or leadership through the posted application system."
What would be the first questions an administrator would ask if you managed to see one on such a pretext? “How old are your children?” “Who do you work for?” “When are you being relocated here?” “Where do you live?” “Where do your children go to school?”
How many lies do you plan to tell? And then, miraculously, you manage to scam a job. Of course that would be as a local hire since you’re coming to the country anyway or you’re in country. Next question: “Where are your children?”
Or what about your next gambit? “I’m asking on behalf of a friend.” The same series of questions. The same lies. Then you drop the line that you’re looking for a job as well. Do you really think that people wouldn’t see through a gambit so transparent?
As it happens, I have no problem showing prospective candidates around school. Why would I? And if I’m not available, someone else would. From time to time, after a long and arduous process, I’ve even hired one or two. So why not tell the truth? If it works, good for you. If it doesn’t, so what?
Your advice to others is always the same: lie, cheat, fraud, deceive – even when there is no purpose in it. Eventually people like you get caught out – as did that teacher I mentioned a while ago – who claimed on his resume to have worked in places that didn’t exist, had referees that didn’t exist and boasted of qualifications from Texas he hadn’t earned.
“A pathological liar is someone who compulsively tells lies or fabricates information. They may not be completely rooted in reality, believing the lies they tell, often in an effort to remedy low self-esteem. To spot a pathological liar, pay attention to their behavior and body language, such as excessive eye contact. Also, listen for any inconsistencies in their stories. Problems like substance abuse, and a history of unstable relationships, are all indications someone may be a pathological liar.”
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@walter
Still dont know anything.
Its neither stupid or pointless, if the deception is successful. I realize you have a problem with quantitative ana1ysis, and dont understand the concept of "hit rate". If for example there are 5 ISs, 3 of them grant an in person interview, one of them declines and one of them never responds, this is a 60% hit rate. If through deception, or subterfuge you are able to obtain the same three interviews and one additional one from the IS that originally declined you have increased your hit rate to 80%. You understand that 80% is greater and better than 60%?
Without getting overly cliche, success starts with opportunity, the IS that declines presents no opportunity, getting your foot in the door, for whatever its worth (maybe you cant spin it, maybe they just arent interested) its an opportunity that may be successful.
Even if the leadership becomes aware that theres something going on, so what, its just a belief. It might end the meeting prematurely, but its more than you had when you got a decline. They wouldnt have been interested if youd been upfront with them anyway, youve lost nothing. The only way this ends badly is if you confess it was all a deception, which I cant imagine anyone doing.
"Theyre 8, a private consultant, late summer, London, Hogwarts", what does it matter? Have the story worked out before you get there, spend 5 minutes, even better bring a voice recorder, so you can record yourself and what your improve story is. The story doesnt have to be that elaborate.
Its true it MAY be a LH, but many ISs in the EU for example essentially offer LH packages anyway.
They are anywhere, what does it matter, the kids are having lunch.
Depends how you develop the conversation, would leadership see through that, no, not likely, leadership spend their days looking at cat videos and spinning around in their chairs, in between walking around.
Read the first part again its called hit rate.
Thats not always my advice, I dont generally advise, I present options, and all the options, or at least a greater variety of options along the continuum, and that continuum has a grey area. Of course if IE and leadership was as benevolent as your repping it to be, this site wouldnt need to exist.
Theres always a purpose, mainly that winning is winning, and generating your own luck is better than hoping some comes along. Of course youre in leadership so you of course would know what a compulsive liar is. Lets look at some leadership deceptions:
"Our faculty are composed of the best educators from the US/UK/CAN/AUS" - Funny everyone always has the best, where are do the other 90% of ITs work. Never seen an IS claim, "Our ITs have a pulse".
"Competitive Salary" - Competitive to what?
"Our students are highly motivated" - Since they couldnt hack it in their other DS, were sending them to this IS, because we have money even though our child is well below average.
"Premium Staff Housing" - Yeah we consider them premium, but you wouldn't pay what were saying they are worth.
I could continue, but you still dont know anything, except how to describe yourself.
Still dont know anything.
Its neither stupid or pointless, if the deception is successful. I realize you have a problem with quantitative ana1ysis, and dont understand the concept of "hit rate". If for example there are 5 ISs, 3 of them grant an in person interview, one of them declines and one of them never responds, this is a 60% hit rate. If through deception, or subterfuge you are able to obtain the same three interviews and one additional one from the IS that originally declined you have increased your hit rate to 80%. You understand that 80% is greater and better than 60%?
Without getting overly cliche, success starts with opportunity, the IS that declines presents no opportunity, getting your foot in the door, for whatever its worth (maybe you cant spin it, maybe they just arent interested) its an opportunity that may be successful.
Even if the leadership becomes aware that theres something going on, so what, its just a belief. It might end the meeting prematurely, but its more than you had when you got a decline. They wouldnt have been interested if youd been upfront with them anyway, youve lost nothing. The only way this ends badly is if you confess it was all a deception, which I cant imagine anyone doing.
"Theyre 8, a private consultant, late summer, London, Hogwarts", what does it matter? Have the story worked out before you get there, spend 5 minutes, even better bring a voice recorder, so you can record yourself and what your improve story is. The story doesnt have to be that elaborate.
Its true it MAY be a LH, but many ISs in the EU for example essentially offer LH packages anyway.
They are anywhere, what does it matter, the kids are having lunch.
Depends how you develop the conversation, would leadership see through that, no, not likely, leadership spend their days looking at cat videos and spinning around in their chairs, in between walking around.
Read the first part again its called hit rate.
Thats not always my advice, I dont generally advise, I present options, and all the options, or at least a greater variety of options along the continuum, and that continuum has a grey area. Of course if IE and leadership was as benevolent as your repping it to be, this site wouldnt need to exist.
Theres always a purpose, mainly that winning is winning, and generating your own luck is better than hoping some comes along. Of course youre in leadership so you of course would know what a compulsive liar is. Lets look at some leadership deceptions:
"Our faculty are composed of the best educators from the US/UK/CAN/AUS" - Funny everyone always has the best, where are do the other 90% of ITs work. Never seen an IS claim, "Our ITs have a pulse".
"Competitive Salary" - Competitive to what?
"Our students are highly motivated" - Since they couldnt hack it in their other DS, were sending them to this IS, because we have money even though our child is well below average.
"Premium Staff Housing" - Yeah we consider them premium, but you wouldn't pay what were saying they are worth.
I could continue, but you still dont know anything, except how to describe yourself.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Visiting an IS
Genius! Stealth interview where admin doesn't know it's an interview and ask you questions about imaginary kids rather than your teaching! That will definitely get you the job. Is stealth interviewing similar to stealth recruiting?
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@Thames Pirate
Yes exactly a stealth interview, one topic to get you in the door and the sit down and then you soliloquy from children too education too teaching.
No stealth recruiting and stealth interviewing arent really the same thing. Stealth recruiting doesnt have any pretense between candidate and recruiter, its taking advantage of the proximity of groups offered by premium agencies recruiting events.
Yes exactly a stealth interview, one topic to get you in the door and the sit down and then you soliloquy from children too education too teaching.
No stealth recruiting and stealth interviewing arent really the same thing. Stealth recruiting doesnt have any pretense between candidate and recruiter, its taking advantage of the proximity of groups offered by premium agencies recruiting events.
Re: Visiting an IS
Dave and quantitative - - you're such a fraud. You're the data boy. Well I don't believe there are people out there who have made a school visit under the false pretext of being parents of imaginary children and then scammed jobs during a walkabout with an administrator. So tell us. How many and in which schools. And none of your "trusted sources", who may be more accurately described as "trusted imaginary friends".
Reply
@Walter
The only fraud is you and the rest of the League of Psyguy Nemesis (LPN). Youre still, after how many years repping that you know anything about me.
My sources are personal experience and trusted and reliable resources. I dont care what you believe, I dont have to prove or demonstrate anything to you or the rest of the (LPN). Youre an IS admin, this is ISR, no one has to comply with your directives.
The only fraud is you and the rest of the League of Psyguy Nemesis (LPN). Youre still, after how many years repping that you know anything about me.
My sources are personal experience and trusted and reliable resources. I dont care what you believe, I dont have to prove or demonstrate anything to you or the rest of the (LPN). Youre an IS admin, this is ISR, no one has to comply with your directives.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Visiting an IS
Meh, Walter, let him troll. The rest of us know he is delusional. Seriously, stealth recruiting and stealth interviews, malapropisms, and trying to get me to defend a preference by telling me it's wrong . . . . Just let him have the last word. The rest of us are capable of seeing through his crazy, and as you said, he is a known fraud.
Asking a school for a tour and possibly a pre-interview for future openings is not going to hurt as long as you approach it professionally. It can help, though of course there are no guarantees.
Asking a school for a tour and possibly a pre-interview for future openings is not going to hurt as long as you approach it professionally. It can help, though of course there are no guarantees.