Psyguy wrote:
"Prejudice and stereotypes are not identical. Dont all subjects have racial, gender, religious content?"
No one said they were identical. If you cannot make a connection between the two, you should not hold a job that requires at least a high school diploma. If you think that such a statement is a sufficient ducking of your original assertion, then you're more craven than I thought. It's astonishing how often your commentary indicates that you have great difficulty empathizing with others. Based on your content over the years, it's hard not to assume only the worst intentions about your desire to be involved in education.
Negativity in the workplace
Re: Negativity in the workplace
If it is only a 3rd tier school, presumably the salary and benefits aren't that great anyway. Why not look for a better school and move on. A few negative and nasty people can make life hell. I had two of them in the small secondary department of my last school and left because of them. They were allowed to poison the students with negative remarks, deliberately undermined anything that my department did and the spineless jellyfish of a 'principal' did nothing. I could see it wouldn't change. After leaving, I felt like a weight had been lifted and began to enjoy life again and I'm now at a school with more professional colleagues who don't run round trying to stab me in the back and a secure principal.Should have left sooner. Life is too short for nastiness and trust me, the students will know all about it.
Reply
@interteach
You did, you inferred prejudice and stereotypes were equivalent. Anyone who doesnt know the difference probably doesnt merit receiving a high school diploma, its whats called false equivalence.
The truth doesnt need defending you release it and it defends itself.
I dont know whats so astonishing about it, Ive often stated that only data matters, empathy and an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
I could not care less about your assumptions or your conclusions on my intentions.
You did, you inferred prejudice and stereotypes were equivalent. Anyone who doesnt know the difference probably doesnt merit receiving a high school diploma, its whats called false equivalence.
The truth doesnt need defending you release it and it defends itself.
I dont know whats so astonishing about it, Ive often stated that only data matters, empathy and an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
I could not care less about your assumptions or your conclusions on my intentions.
Re: Negativity in the workplace
boss14 wrote:
> @reu
>
> Can you explain in more detail how in teaching it is more personalized and
> you have to click more with your co-workers than for typical office jobs?
>
This is hard to describe... I think in schools there's more to potentially lose, so the social part of things comes to the fore. A more abrasive teacher can be "constructively removed", even if the person in question is a good teacher. This isn't something that happens because the person is rude, it's something that happens because the teacher comes in knowing they're fantastic, and supervisors or colleagues feel like they're going to look bad. If the teacher in question comes in being more meek, more diplomatic, more shy-and-retiring, people don't feel threatened, and everything is fine.
Office work has this, but office work is also less reliant on your colleagues, with less sniping. It's interesting reading this thread. I've been on anime and videogames websites where the posters make less assumptions about people. Psyguy with his Americanised High School cliques is way off base about British Curriculum Schools and their International Teachers. Senator with his "two tribes"... These are the kinds of people you have to deal with in schools, as well as the nice teachers who will help you settle in, and who you'll make friends with. Whilst both PsyGuy and Senator have said horrid things, I'm sure they're fine people to work alongside, as long as you make to bend-the-knee, tug-your-forelock and stay respectful to their infinite wisdom. I'm also sure that their cynical view of younger/inexperienced teachers is something that would no doubt help create/perpetuate a toxic environment. So, with all that said, don't you imagine that "clicking" with them in the workplace would make your life better, compared to not?
> Would you say it's harder to get out of a toxic environment by changing
> schools compared to changing companies in a office job?
The hard part with this is references. Most international teaching contracts are two years, so if you go into a school, and after 3 months you realise the people are awful and it's toxic, you've got to put-up with it for a long time. Office work, you can fudge it a little, work for maybe a total of 9 months, and then make your excuses and leave. Tell the new employer you wanted to be closer to home, better work/life balance, better pay, whatever. International schools are very wary of hiring new international teachers, though, because of the possible flight-risk when things get tough, or the teacher gets homesick, for example.
So, 3 choices:
1) Stick with it, and keep your eye on the goal for over 18 months.
2) Go back to your home country and get a job ASAP, then start your search again the following year.
3) Write the year off, and apply to new international schools ASAP.
> @reu
>
> Can you explain in more detail how in teaching it is more personalized and
> you have to click more with your co-workers than for typical office jobs?
>
This is hard to describe... I think in schools there's more to potentially lose, so the social part of things comes to the fore. A more abrasive teacher can be "constructively removed", even if the person in question is a good teacher. This isn't something that happens because the person is rude, it's something that happens because the teacher comes in knowing they're fantastic, and supervisors or colleagues feel like they're going to look bad. If the teacher in question comes in being more meek, more diplomatic, more shy-and-retiring, people don't feel threatened, and everything is fine.
Office work has this, but office work is also less reliant on your colleagues, with less sniping. It's interesting reading this thread. I've been on anime and videogames websites where the posters make less assumptions about people. Psyguy with his Americanised High School cliques is way off base about British Curriculum Schools and their International Teachers. Senator with his "two tribes"... These are the kinds of people you have to deal with in schools, as well as the nice teachers who will help you settle in, and who you'll make friends with. Whilst both PsyGuy and Senator have said horrid things, I'm sure they're fine people to work alongside, as long as you make to bend-the-knee, tug-your-forelock and stay respectful to their infinite wisdom. I'm also sure that their cynical view of younger/inexperienced teachers is something that would no doubt help create/perpetuate a toxic environment. So, with all that said, don't you imagine that "clicking" with them in the workplace would make your life better, compared to not?
> Would you say it's harder to get out of a toxic environment by changing
> schools compared to changing companies in a office job?
The hard part with this is references. Most international teaching contracts are two years, so if you go into a school, and after 3 months you realise the people are awful and it's toxic, you've got to put-up with it for a long time. Office work, you can fudge it a little, work for maybe a total of 9 months, and then make your excuses and leave. Tell the new employer you wanted to be closer to home, better work/life balance, better pay, whatever. International schools are very wary of hiring new international teachers, though, because of the possible flight-risk when things get tough, or the teacher gets homesick, for example.
So, 3 choices:
1) Stick with it, and keep your eye on the goal for over 18 months.
2) Go back to your home country and get a job ASAP, then start your search again the following year.
3) Write the year off, and apply to new international schools ASAP.
Reply
@boss14
Disagree with @Reu , there are just as many though differing clicks in BSs as there are in ASs. They may be differnt in some aspects but they are still there.
If your in an IS for only three months you dont have to deal with it for the rest of the contract, at only 3 months you can pull a runner and ghost the year and move on to another IS either at mid term or for the next academic cycle.
Disagree with @Reu , there are just as many though differing clicks in BSs as there are in ASs. They may be differnt in some aspects but they are still there.
If your in an IS for only three months you dont have to deal with it for the rest of the contract, at only 3 months you can pull a runner and ghost the year and move on to another IS either at mid term or for the next academic cycle.
-
Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Negativity in the workplace
ANd now you know how not to get hired at a top school. They tend to frown on runners. Helps you know which people on here to trust.
Discussion
AND now you know that IE is not Buddhism where all life is suffering. Top ISs no the bad ones, and smart ITs change direction when confronted with new data.
-
interteach
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm
Re: Negativity in the workplace
It's interesting (in a small sort of way) Psyguy, how you hide behind being unable to reason when presented with ideas that disagree with yours. If you cannot see a connection between stereotyping and prejudice, well...
And as for your not caring well, again, it's nothing new.
And as for your not caring well, again, it's nothing new.
Reply
@interteach
Whereas I find it equally interesting (meaning not interesting at all), how labels hold more value than the meaning. How some ITs believe anything that isnt entirely "individual differences" must be evil and ugly because its to some quantity connected with labels like discrimination and prejudice. You see "stereotype" and you immediately go to prejudice. I see stereotype and go to correlation, because data is superior too feelings.
Yes I do see the connection, but unlike you I also see the distance between them where one has utility and the other does not.
I post my ideas because they are sufficiently strong to withstand debate based on data, not on feelings that someone might be offended, because your right I dont care about feelings. Feelings and an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
Whereas I find it equally interesting (meaning not interesting at all), how labels hold more value than the meaning. How some ITs believe anything that isnt entirely "individual differences" must be evil and ugly because its to some quantity connected with labels like discrimination and prejudice. You see "stereotype" and you immediately go to prejudice. I see stereotype and go to correlation, because data is superior too feelings.
Yes I do see the connection, but unlike you I also see the distance between them where one has utility and the other does not.
I post my ideas because they are sufficiently strong to withstand debate based on data, not on feelings that someone might be offended, because your right I dont care about feelings. Feelings and an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
-
interteach
- Posts: 210
- Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm
Re: Negativity in the workplace
As word salad goes, nice job but I hope you cook better than you write.
As a reasoned response, your being in a corner is showing.
As a reasoned response, your being in a corner is showing.
-
Lastname_Z
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 pm
Re: Negativity in the workplace
Cooldude wrote:
> If it is only a 3rd tier school, presumably the salary and benefits aren't
> that great anyway. Why not look for a better school and move on. A few
> negative and nasty people can make life hell. I had two of them in the
> small secondary department of my last school and left because of them. They
> were allowed to poison the students with negative remarks, deliberately
> undermined anything that my department did and the spineless jellyfish of a
> 'principal' did nothing. I could see it wouldn't change. After leaving, I
> felt like a weight had been lifted and began to enjoy life again and I'm
> now at a school with more professional colleagues who don't run round
> trying to stab me in the back and a secure principal.Should have left
> sooner. Life is too short for nastiness and trust me, the students will
> know all about it.
Actually salary and benefits are great despite it being a third tier school. A lot of people at this school have probably stayed for more than two years because of it. Just wanted to make that correction.
It's only my first year so I haven't had the chance to do two years. I guess the main reason I'd want to stay past two years (if I do) would be because I like the idea of being at the front of changes happening (maybe even having a leadership role in some changes) rather than at the back of them (coming into a school where changes have happened without my input).
> If it is only a 3rd tier school, presumably the salary and benefits aren't
> that great anyway. Why not look for a better school and move on. A few
> negative and nasty people can make life hell. I had two of them in the
> small secondary department of my last school and left because of them. They
> were allowed to poison the students with negative remarks, deliberately
> undermined anything that my department did and the spineless jellyfish of a
> 'principal' did nothing. I could see it wouldn't change. After leaving, I
> felt like a weight had been lifted and began to enjoy life again and I'm
> now at a school with more professional colleagues who don't run round
> trying to stab me in the back and a secure principal.Should have left
> sooner. Life is too short for nastiness and trust me, the students will
> know all about it.
Actually salary and benefits are great despite it being a third tier school. A lot of people at this school have probably stayed for more than two years because of it. Just wanted to make that correction.
It's only my first year so I haven't had the chance to do two years. I guess the main reason I'd want to stay past two years (if I do) would be because I like the idea of being at the front of changes happening (maybe even having a leadership role in some changes) rather than at the back of them (coming into a school where changes have happened without my input).
Re: Negativity in the workplace
Lastname_Z wrote:
>
> It's only my first year so I haven't had the chance to do two years. I guess the main
> reason I'd want to stay past two years (if I do) would be because I like the idea of
> being at the front of changes happening (maybe even having a leadership role in some
> changes) rather than at the back of them (coming into a school where changes have
> happened without my input).
There's definite value to staying on, if you can make your mark on the school. There's the obvious career boost - being able to say you were instrumental in X, Y and Z - but there's also the more communal/social benefits.
Something to remember is that there's always more teachers (young or old) getting on the international circuit, and every school is going to have newbies at some stage. It's never fun being in your first year abroad, away from friends, family, and your old routine. If you can have a positive impact on not only the school's curriculum and development, but also in making the school a nicer, friendlier place to be for new teachers, then that is a genuinely meaningful thing to do.
Obviously, you would hope to not make the "bitches" (for want of a better word) lives better, because there's no justice in them being nasty and having a good life. And you can't devote your life to making schools better places for complete strangers... But it's a way to (possibly) make your life and the lives of others happier in the short-to-medium term. And that's no small thing.
On the whole, it is definitely something to consider alongside how you feel about the country you're in, and the salary/benefits. And in a lot of schools, once you're past the initial 2 year contract, re-ups are only 1 year, so... :)
>
> It's only my first year so I haven't had the chance to do two years. I guess the main
> reason I'd want to stay past two years (if I do) would be because I like the idea of
> being at the front of changes happening (maybe even having a leadership role in some
> changes) rather than at the back of them (coming into a school where changes have
> happened without my input).
There's definite value to staying on, if you can make your mark on the school. There's the obvious career boost - being able to say you were instrumental in X, Y and Z - but there's also the more communal/social benefits.
Something to remember is that there's always more teachers (young or old) getting on the international circuit, and every school is going to have newbies at some stage. It's never fun being in your first year abroad, away from friends, family, and your old routine. If you can have a positive impact on not only the school's curriculum and development, but also in making the school a nicer, friendlier place to be for new teachers, then that is a genuinely meaningful thing to do.
Obviously, you would hope to not make the "bitches" (for want of a better word) lives better, because there's no justice in them being nasty and having a good life. And you can't devote your life to making schools better places for complete strangers... But it's a way to (possibly) make your life and the lives of others happier in the short-to-medium term. And that's no small thing.
On the whole, it is definitely something to consider alongside how you feel about the country you're in, and the salary/benefits. And in a lot of schools, once you're past the initial 2 year contract, re-ups are only 1 year, so... :)
Reply
@interteach
I do but my writing is nothing to be concerned about in this instance. Only data matters, I consider my position sufficiently strong to withstand debate. You might be in a corner.
@Lastname_Z
Are those things going to happen though?
Are you really going to get to put your name on something thats going to stay beyond your time there? Are you going to get to move into leadership, is that something being discussed? My experience is that when ITs start thinking about those things they are rationalizing the scenario they are in, and while hope is a good thing, disillusioning yourself is not. If some or all of those goals can actually materialize than theres some value and return in staying on and taking on those responsibilities. If however the only realistic motivation is your compensation for the effort and work you do, than that and that alone is what you have to measure against being successful, everything else is just wishful thinking, to cheer yourself up.
Contract renewals can be 1 too 3 years, most are 1 year.
I do but my writing is nothing to be concerned about in this instance. Only data matters, I consider my position sufficiently strong to withstand debate. You might be in a corner.
@Lastname_Z
Are those things going to happen though?
Are you really going to get to put your name on something thats going to stay beyond your time there? Are you going to get to move into leadership, is that something being discussed? My experience is that when ITs start thinking about those things they are rationalizing the scenario they are in, and while hope is a good thing, disillusioning yourself is not. If some or all of those goals can actually materialize than theres some value and return in staying on and taking on those responsibilities. If however the only realistic motivation is your compensation for the effort and work you do, than that and that alone is what you have to measure against being successful, everything else is just wishful thinking, to cheer yourself up.
Contract renewals can be 1 too 3 years, most are 1 year.
Re: Negativity in the workplace
I am at a 3rd tier school with a bunch of older teachers i.e. over 65s who are just there for the medical insurance and to pad their pensions. They are a pain in the neck - always off sick, always complaining and always dominating. Admin. loves them because they are inexpensive to hire and put up with crappy housing. I just ignore them all and do my own thing in my own class room. Being mid forties, I will outlast them anyway!
-
Amusing User Name
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:27 pm
Re: Negativity in the workplace
Sounds like an eminently sensible approach @Cooldude. As I don't foresee any 1st tier compensation packages in my immediate future, I pretty sure I'll be teaching (while not being a sink of negativity and schmuck-like behavior) in my mid-sixties. Can I ask, which country employs people in their mid-sixties?