The International Schools Review Forum

I actually have a question, or more a poll for advice. To those long time veteran admins:

1) How long is a typical service period before moving from a junior admin position to a senior admin position ( such as assistant principal to school head)?

2) Professional growth/advancement wise exclusive of compensation package. It is more advantages to lead a lower tier school, such Asa tier 3 school as its head, then a support.junior admin at a tier 2 school?

3) Again compensation aside, would stepping down from a tier 2 admin school be detrimental, in accepting a teaching position a a top tier 1 school (though or elite school)?

I know what Id advise to someone else (what's the better package? Work is work.), but I can't be objective this time since it's actually me.

If is helps the tier 3 head position is in a rural part of China. My current junior admin, tier 2 position position is in Denmark, and my tier 1 teaching position is in Brazil. Any advice, or discussion would be appreciated.

While I have no advice to offer you really, I'm sorry no one else has either. I realize you are a controversial poster, but nonetheless have offered responses which many people deem valuable. Sorry nobody has give some insight to yours.

Good luck making a decision.

Thanks, its a pretty niche/esoteric question to ask on a teacher forum. I wanted to see if the option was someone else's what their thought process would be.

Id be a principal/head of a 3rd tier school in China, and its not even a good 3rd tier school, but it will be "my ship". The teaching position is a really nice general science position in Brazil, at a 1st tier school. Great package, great kids, good reviews, lots of resources, big metropolitan, fun place to be. The other option is to stay here where I am. June 1 is the final day to get out of my contract, otherwise its 2 more years here.

I think it depends on what your career goals are. If you don't like school admin then head to brazil. If you want to run a school , head to china.

Personally, you couldn't pay me enough to be an admin type. Dealing with students is hard enough, but add dealing with teachers!.... No way!

Seems like tier 1 jobs would be no problem for you to find, but do entry level head positions grow on trees, especially with your little admin experience.

But then again we know how much you like the Brazilian ladies.

When you interview do the schools ask why you only serve one year and out for most of your career?

I would think it depends on your ambitions. If you really want o be an admin then tier shouldn't matter too much. If the school in China would really give you FULL control maybe your could right it.

Whats your read of the ownership group? Is there a lot of room for growth?

If you could significantly improve the school then you would think you'd have interest from more reputable schools in the future. It just depends on if you think the school ownership will provide an environment which will allow for major institutional improvement.

Alright, fwiw I'm a mid-level admin (mentioned solely to add context- insert sarcastic golf clap here) and here's my 2 bits:

1) How long is a typical service period before moving from a junior admin position to a senior admin position ( such as assistant principal to school head)?

When interviewing other admin candidates, when someone comes in having spent 4 or more years in one junior admin position people ask why? Is it a lack of ambition, is there a reason, are they a perpetual candidate, or are they simply in a good position.

2) Professional growth/advancement wise exclusive of compensation package. It is more advantages to lead a lower tier school, such Asa tier 3 school as its head, then a support.junior admin at a tier 2 school?

IMHO- being head is different. Once you are a head- tier whatever, you've done it. We look at position before school. Have you held responsibility, have you been 'the man', have you had to make the decisions that others won't? This all relates to what you want to do and where you want to be in five years. Want to be head somewhere good, do it for a while were others won't.

3) Again compensation aside, would stepping down from a tier 2 admin school be detrimental, in accepting a teaching position a a top tier 1 school (though or elite school)?

Yes. If you want to be and admin at a tier 1 down the road.

I have been in the same situation. I was offered a vice principal position at a truly awful school and low pay. I am so glad that I did not take it, it kind of comes down to how you can change the school.....in my case I think that in the end I would have been fired....no matter how hard I worked

@liketotravel

Yes they ask sometimes.

@tdaley26

Im already a junior admin, so its less an issue of trading teaching for administration, and thats one of my option is staying here in my academic coordinator role, which is nice, but there isnt really any money and two more years of this would be a bit boring and I dont know what it would do for my advancement. I also dont know how going to a bad tier 3 school as the head would work, or if going to a tier 1 school as a teacher would doom my advancement opportunities.

@gr8teach

Thats one of the issues its principal and head of school BUT its a for profit, and the board is comprised of basically owner/family members. There is a lot of room for growth because they are as bottom as it gets. The school has 130 students spread across 12 grades. Most of those students (about 100) are in secondary, and the entire primary is about 30 kids. Its not a major city, its on the southern coast. Most of the faculty are unqualified, and have been given 1 year contracts for next year to "get qualified". I have to hire 5 qualified HODs (Science, Social studies, Arts, Language Arts, Enrichment) to collaborate on curriculum and train staff. Its a single new (2 years old) building, there is a lot of technology but no one knows how to use it. They want whats basically a three year plan to be done in a year. They would like full WASC accreditation for next year.

@Dunany

I can agree with that but being a junior admin as in assistant principal is different then being in charge. when your a junior admin, your just implementing what your told to do with some input. When your the head its your call, your ship.

@JISAlum

So teaching at a tier one school is a prerequisite for moving into administration at a tier 1 school?

"Thats one of the issues its principal and head of school BUT its a for profit, and the board is comprised of basically owner/family members"

You will want to give this careful consideration. You may wind up as a junior admin, no matter the title. The best advice I ever got, "Don't accept a position unless you know you can be successful."

It's your life but it would see another junior admin position at a "power school" would be a better way to move on up.

Good luck with your decision making!

Sounds like a challenge and if you can steer the ship in the right direction, you will have taken a gigantic step forward in your career.

If it turns out you're a puppet to the board you're going to sink fast.

Good luck!

If your goal is top tier admin, you should stick to admin posts in tier 1 or tier 2 schools. I've seen a good handful of tier 3 admin get stuck in tier 3 forever, or at least that's my conclusion after knowing them for years and years and never seeing them able to move up.

In my experience, you can/should move up one notch at a time, and there are two scales you could choose from. If you move from tier 3 to tier 2, expect to stay at the same responsibility level: teacher/junior admin/senior admin/head of school. If you move from teacher to to junior admin, expect to stay at the same tier. The reason for this... expectations and responsibilities increase significantly whether you change tier or change post. If you go up in both at the same time, you'll be swimming above your head before you know it.

Now, your question in interesting. Using my theory, moving from junior admin tier 2 to head of school tier 3 would mean you'd be moving down a tier but up 2 steps in the responsibility ladder. Technically it's still only net one step up, but is it really? Are you ready to sit across the table from someone and tell them they're fired? New admin always get excited about being able to hire people and make the decisions that get people smiling, but it takes experience with the really painful decisions to make a good head. If you're an academic coordinator, I'm guessing you haven't had to pull the plug on someone's career, booting him and his small children and wife who makes the tasty treats to the curb with no prospects. You may have known that the person eventually had to go, but did you actually make the decision? Tell him the news? Stand firm when he cried in front of you and promised to do better? Are you ready to be the one who says 'no, we can't implement this program/go on that PD, that you've planned, even though it looks fantastic, even though you've done all the research, even though it appears to be the right thing to do... because we can't afford it'. Ready to be the one who gets blamed for every decision?

Similarly, can you make a budget? For the whole school? Do you know how to set priorities for the whole school? Can you navigate labor law, and make it work for the best of the school? Are you used to thinking about secretaries' needs and how to maintain nurses' certifications? Can you advise the public relations officer on how you want this year's ad campaign handled? Are you familiar with learning theory and do you have pedagogical beliefs about how to run/improve programs for subjects and age levels beyond the ones you're working in now? When you see a problem, do you immediately start running through solutions in your head?

I've been in senior admin for years, and I'd hesitate to take a head of school position, regardless of the tier. In part I just don't want one, and in part I feel I wouldn't be ready. If I decide I want such a post some day, I know what I need to do to get ready, I know where to go to get those skills, and I know how long (ish) it would take me. If you, or anyone, doesn't know the answers to those questions, I wouldn't recommend jumping up to head of school.

I appreciate the feedback, as overseasvet2 pointed out. My biggest concern, is exactly how much "REAL" autonomy I would have. I do not want to be the designated scapegoat/puppet.

excellent topic, as I am in the same position and having the same questions. thanks for all of the responses. I am curious to know why staying 4 years or more in a position would cause people to be skeptical of one's ambition - is the ladder that short that I should look to move from jr. admin to sr. admin to head of school in ten years or less? or from jr. admin to head of school in less than 5 years? would love to hear from more people about this...

Because in international education, there are only three options when it comes to professional growth:

1) Youre happy where you are.

2) Youre looking for the next better position/school/region.

3) Youre going home.

Where there is change, there is always a why. If you were somewhere for 4-5 years, you must have been content, so why the move now? There are a lot of valid responses but your going to be asked, and youre going to have to answer.