Hi, Clearly with "competitive salary" we are talking a game of Texas hold em with the recruiter trying to seal a deal as low as possible and the teacher aiming or as high as possible without losing the offer.
Any tips on this. I'm thinking mainly Middle east posts....
When is it best to negotiate this?
Is it like a deal in the local souk? Bid..bid again...Walk away, pause and return if you really want it?
What has worked for you?..What didn't....
Tips for negotiating salary.
Re: Tips for negotiating salary.
Established schools have a set salary scale. There are 20 others behind you to grab that job. Only lower tier schools and those in hardship locations might give you some leeway. International teaching is longer the best kept secret and there are dime a dozen math and physics teachers and if Brexit does really happen, expect a lot more competition for IT jobs.
Response
Again open and closed salary/comp scales, upper tier ISs or reputable ISs will have an open salary scale, you have X step (years of experience) below or at the cap and you have Y degree the salary is thus Z. While you cant just demand more coin or a better OSH package there is some negotiating room. What you can do with an IS that has an open salary/comp schedule is appeal to the recruiter or leadership that you have some attribute or quality such as an additional degree, or cross curriculum experience, or maybe a special skill set they would find valuable, or previous mentoring experience, something that you have observed from the discussion interview that they have indicated would be valuable to them. You can use that to appeal to the recruiter for additional step or a higher band. Maybe you dont have a masters but you have two bachelors in subjects you ill be teaching and maybe thats worth moving you to the Masters or advance degree band. Maybe you have STEM experience in robotics and would be able to offer an advance physics course in robotics with the intention of entering the students in a competition sponsored by a major elite Uni such as Cambridge or MIT, and then pitch to them thats worth a step. You also would be comfortable teaching some maths classes as well, and maybe thats worth an extra step. The IS is hiring a number of new ITs with little experience, and your 20+ years experience would be a benefit to mentoring them, and since the IS doesnt have any TLR, you could pitch that that is worth an extra level on step. Thats three special characteristics 2 steps for each is 6 steps, you settle on one step for each at 3 extra steps on the salary scale.
Lower tier ISs yes you will need to and want to bargain. Generally one of two things happen, either the interview suddenly becomes a negotiation, and you dont know if they are just feeling out what your salary expectations would be or if your negotiating, but you could find yourself at the bargaining table and thats where you get what you want. First, its okay to say you dont know (you would need a specification of the duties and task expectations), then ask for some clarifications and descriptions (number of contract hours, number of teaching hours, number of preps), take a breath, center yourself. Anything you say here could be an immediate deal breaker, but anything you say and ask for is going to establish the anchor points of the offer. If you ask for £50K/yr and their salary limit is £40K/yr then you may get the "well its early we have other candidates to interview), but if you say £40K/yr and they would be prepared to pay £50K/yr you will never hear anything above £40K/yr. You may be able to claw your way up a little bit as the specifications are developed, but you wont see £50K/yr, usually 5% is what you can climb up too if you make a really good case. Most ITs make the mistake of underbidding because they are still in an interview mindset and think they are still competing for the job and not negotiating the offer.
Second, most ISs will focus the conversation on the coin, and many young ITs dont thnk much of the OSH package thinking that its firm, when in reality if your negotiating the salary than you can negotiate a lot of the OSH package. The key is knowing what is and isnt negotiable. You can negotiate benefits that have a direct coin equivalency, if you as a consumer can put a coin value on it you can negotiate it. Benefits like flights, tuition places, allowances, those you can negotiate. Benefits that you cant negotiate are those that are indirect, you cant negotiate a better medical/health care plan, or social insurance scheme. You can negotiate a housing allowance but not provided housing (the IS has a revolving lease on a number of flats/apartments in a building, you will get one of those).
Third, you need to know hen and be prepared to walk away. Not making a deal is not a personal failure.
The second scenario that happens (and is more common), is sometime after the interview you get an email congratulating you with a contract offer. Usually with an accept by date and time, you will then have one maybe two opportunities to reply with a counter offer by email. You probably want to move quickly, do your research, make your counter offer and then either accept or decline. There are ISs that will make multiple offers for the same position at the same time and the first IT to accept gets the appointment and the others get their offers withdrawn. Reputable ISs wont do that, but they wont wait forever. If an IS provides a very narrow or short consideration period, you can ask for more time, but generally they wont give you more than a week. The only time you really need more time is when youre playing against other potential offers or ISs that you havent received offers from but are at some point in the recruiting process that involves more than just submitting an application (you have had an interview and are waiting or have scheduled an interview, etc.). Usually its you got an offer from X IS but youre waiting for something to happen with a youre dream IS.
No, its not like haggling in the bazaar, recruiters and leadership wont waste their time. Its generally offer, counter offer, appeal, decision, with any . walking away at any point being final, there isnt any come back. Leadership is generally thin skinned, they all believe their IS is awesome and their offer generous, and any rejection they generally perceive as a personal affront or that they were lucky as you arent clearly smart enough to know a good offer when you see one. There are leadership who will hold a grudge forever. There are ITs who have been to fairs and interviewed with leadership at one IS, declined and then years later when the leadership is at a different IS, have a candidate walk in the room (it was scheduled by another member on the recruiting trip) and summarily dismiss the candidate.
@mathman85
I dont see Brexit impacting IE very much at this point, even if UK citizens arent in the same category as EU citizens they will be in a category that makes them easier and more desirable to hire than US/CAN/AUS ITs. Even if there is "no deal" its in the UKs and the EUs top interests to keep high quality employees moving freely. I just dont see a no deal exit that involves mass deportations on both sides.
Lower tier ISs yes you will need to and want to bargain. Generally one of two things happen, either the interview suddenly becomes a negotiation, and you dont know if they are just feeling out what your salary expectations would be or if your negotiating, but you could find yourself at the bargaining table and thats where you get what you want. First, its okay to say you dont know (you would need a specification of the duties and task expectations), then ask for some clarifications and descriptions (number of contract hours, number of teaching hours, number of preps), take a breath, center yourself. Anything you say here could be an immediate deal breaker, but anything you say and ask for is going to establish the anchor points of the offer. If you ask for £50K/yr and their salary limit is £40K/yr then you may get the "well its early we have other candidates to interview), but if you say £40K/yr and they would be prepared to pay £50K/yr you will never hear anything above £40K/yr. You may be able to claw your way up a little bit as the specifications are developed, but you wont see £50K/yr, usually 5% is what you can climb up too if you make a really good case. Most ITs make the mistake of underbidding because they are still in an interview mindset and think they are still competing for the job and not negotiating the offer.
Second, most ISs will focus the conversation on the coin, and many young ITs dont thnk much of the OSH package thinking that its firm, when in reality if your negotiating the salary than you can negotiate a lot of the OSH package. The key is knowing what is and isnt negotiable. You can negotiate benefits that have a direct coin equivalency, if you as a consumer can put a coin value on it you can negotiate it. Benefits like flights, tuition places, allowances, those you can negotiate. Benefits that you cant negotiate are those that are indirect, you cant negotiate a better medical/health care plan, or social insurance scheme. You can negotiate a housing allowance but not provided housing (the IS has a revolving lease on a number of flats/apartments in a building, you will get one of those).
Third, you need to know hen and be prepared to walk away. Not making a deal is not a personal failure.
The second scenario that happens (and is more common), is sometime after the interview you get an email congratulating you with a contract offer. Usually with an accept by date and time, you will then have one maybe two opportunities to reply with a counter offer by email. You probably want to move quickly, do your research, make your counter offer and then either accept or decline. There are ISs that will make multiple offers for the same position at the same time and the first IT to accept gets the appointment and the others get their offers withdrawn. Reputable ISs wont do that, but they wont wait forever. If an IS provides a very narrow or short consideration period, you can ask for more time, but generally they wont give you more than a week. The only time you really need more time is when youre playing against other potential offers or ISs that you havent received offers from but are at some point in the recruiting process that involves more than just submitting an application (you have had an interview and are waiting or have scheduled an interview, etc.). Usually its you got an offer from X IS but youre waiting for something to happen with a youre dream IS.
No, its not like haggling in the bazaar, recruiters and leadership wont waste their time. Its generally offer, counter offer, appeal, decision, with any . walking away at any point being final, there isnt any come back. Leadership is generally thin skinned, they all believe their IS is awesome and their offer generous, and any rejection they generally perceive as a personal affront or that they were lucky as you arent clearly smart enough to know a good offer when you see one. There are leadership who will hold a grudge forever. There are ITs who have been to fairs and interviewed with leadership at one IS, declined and then years later when the leadership is at a different IS, have a candidate walk in the room (it was scheduled by another member on the recruiting trip) and summarily dismiss the candidate.
@mathman85
I dont see Brexit impacting IE very much at this point, even if UK citizens arent in the same category as EU citizens they will be in a category that makes them easier and more desirable to hire than US/CAN/AUS ITs. Even if there is "no deal" its in the UKs and the EUs top interests to keep high quality employees moving freely. I just dont see a no deal exit that involves mass deportations on both sides.
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Physicsisfun
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:50 am
Re: Tips for negotiating salary.
PsyGuy...
Wow!
Can I buy you a drink :-)
Your advice is Gold dust.
The good news for us, is my partner and I are both at the top of our game and financially secure. No rush or desperation, but excited about going overseas again after so many years.. And very happy to go up against the best. I've interviewed a lot of Physics teachers in my time.
Thank you once again.
I agree, I can't see Brexit making much difference, lots of moaning but it is generally the same people who actually get up and do it.
Wow!
Can I buy you a drink :-)
Your advice is Gold dust.
The good news for us, is my partner and I are both at the top of our game and financially secure. No rush or desperation, but excited about going overseas again after so many years.. And very happy to go up against the best. I've interviewed a lot of Physics teachers in my time.
Thank you once again.
I agree, I can't see Brexit making much difference, lots of moaning but it is generally the same people who actually get up and do it.
Discussion
There was a lot of hysteria in the beginning of Brexit, no one could really imagine how leaving would work and losing the single market would be disastrous, all over more control of immigration. I think everyone is seeing that there really cant be a hard exit with a neighbor, and that trade existed before the EU. I see the UK getting access to the single market, but theyre going to pay for it and more than what they did as part of the EU, and the UK asserting control over immigration allowing the desirables easy transit and keeping the undesirables out. When all is said and done it will be a pretty soft 'Brexit lite', love makes the world go round, love of coin, and the economics dont support walls with the UKs EU neighbors, its just not good for business.