Looking for my first intl. job, been a teacher for10+ years. I've got a package offer from one school, and expect another school's soon.
Is salary a take it or leave it proposition? I want to come back with a number at least 5k higher just on principle. Will schools shut the door if you just ask for it? Other benefits seem fine.
Negotiating Salary- Take it or leave it?
Kind of depends
Kinds of depends on supply and demand I'd expect. If your subject is in demand, then maybe negotiating is possible. If not, then they'll let you know.
You might be able to say "I'm getting paid 'this much' at my current job" and ask if they can improve their offer.
If they say 'No', then you'll know... Also depends on your motives for taking the job. If you've got bills to pay, then maybe you have to negotiate.
You might be able to say "I'm getting paid 'this much' at my current job" and ask if they can improve their offer.
If they say 'No', then you'll know... Also depends on your motives for taking the job. If you've got bills to pay, then maybe you have to negotiate.
doesn't hurt to ask
I'll take that as a start. It doesn't hurt to ask. I was curious if they had any impatience. Will they be offended just by the idea that a teacher is asking for more than they offer? In my private U.S. world, I don't think it is anything negative. But in this position I have to worry about other cultures and also international school culture. So far, I see teachers being treated like cattle. I guess I'll just try to moo a little louder, and see if I get the hammer. Thanks for responding JISalum, this ol' board is a little lonely.
Many schools, ok at least the ones I have worked at, use a salary grid to determine you starting salary. Often, but not always, schools will only recognize a certain number of years of experience and will plug you in at step 7 or 8 for example despite the fact that you have taught for 20. My impression is that there is a bit more flexibility in the benefits, for example I had my third child paid for at one school.
Thank you, Overhere.
I thought that might work, too. The moving fees are exempt from taxation in Vietnam, but I'm hoping the housing stipend is too. I'm hoping to bump up the housing allowance. That is nice, but that doesn't really help me. I need that salary to go up. Here's another thing I was going to ask for on the backend, in stead of salary- school gets me a cell phone and pays the bill, or Hi-speed internet. I need those to do my job well.
I know how to negotiate, but I was just wondering if schools find it offensive. Do you see my question? I guess I'm pretty committed to negotiating because that is my personality, but I want to know if I'm tripping emotional land mines instead of business land mines. Or if that is an unknowable factor, how 'bout how common it is? I'll let everyone on this forum know how it goes. Somebody needs to post here.
I thought that might work, too. The moving fees are exempt from taxation in Vietnam, but I'm hoping the housing stipend is too. I'm hoping to bump up the housing allowance. That is nice, but that doesn't really help me. I need that salary to go up. Here's another thing I was going to ask for on the backend, in stead of salary- school gets me a cell phone and pays the bill, or Hi-speed internet. I need those to do my job well.
I know how to negotiate, but I was just wondering if schools find it offensive. Do you see my question? I guess I'm pretty committed to negotiating because that is my personality, but I want to know if I'm tripping emotional land mines instead of business land mines. Or if that is an unknowable factor, how 'bout how common it is? I'll let everyone on this forum know how it goes. Somebody needs to post here.
Random points in no particular order:
In the category of Mistakes I Won't Be Making Twice:
I want to SEE the salary scale and where they say they want to put me before accepting any offers. That one I learned at home, incidentally.
Is it a for-profit school? If you are in Vietnam and not happy with what they've offered you, is it because it is lower than what other schools in Vietnam are paying for the same amount of experience (this seems to be a trend in for profit schools in general) or because it is lower than you can do at home? Because at home can introduce a lot of variability, if you are in a high cost of living place or high need area or inner city vs rural, public, private... You don't have to go into detail about that unless you want advice on the number. Just food for thought.
Whether they are offended by your wanting more pay may not have any relationship to whether your counter was a reasonable one. That's going to depend, I think, more on the personalities involved and could be a red flag. After reading some of the antics of people on the other side of the ISR reviews... An experienced, reasonable person would not be offended by negotiation of pay. They might not have the ability to negotiate much around a set pay scale, but IMHO, a set pay scale would be one mark of a professional operation.
In the category of Mistakes I Won't Be Making Twice:
I want to SEE the salary scale and where they say they want to put me before accepting any offers. That one I learned at home, incidentally.
Is it a for-profit school? If you are in Vietnam and not happy with what they've offered you, is it because it is lower than what other schools in Vietnam are paying for the same amount of experience (this seems to be a trend in for profit schools in general) or because it is lower than you can do at home? Because at home can introduce a lot of variability, if you are in a high cost of living place or high need area or inner city vs rural, public, private... You don't have to go into detail about that unless you want advice on the number. Just food for thought.
Whether they are offended by your wanting more pay may not have any relationship to whether your counter was a reasonable one. That's going to depend, I think, more on the personalities involved and could be a red flag. After reading some of the antics of people on the other side of the ISR reviews... An experienced, reasonable person would not be offended by negotiation of pay. They might not have the ability to negotiate much around a set pay scale, but IMHO, a set pay scale would be one mark of a professional operation.
I just want to clarify that last bit, I don't mean to come across as saying that 5k more than your offer is an unreasonable thing. My point is more that there
are unreasonable people out there. If your doing what you need to do to best look out for your interests makes them upset, better you know NOW.
are unreasonable people out there. If your doing what you need to do to best look out for your interests makes them upset, better you know NOW.
Thank you and I get it.
Haven't seen the scale.
But thank you for suggesting I do more research on other schools in VN. I am familiar with China and the US, but I need to look more closely at the country in question.
Personalities, indeed. That is pure truth and I was hoping it was more generic and universal. This is a school with a full HR dept. so I'll assume it more professional than the others that have had teachers in their off time interview me.
Thanks Red, you are a credit to this website!
But thank you for suggesting I do more research on other schools in VN. I am familiar with China and the US, but I need to look more closely at the country in question.
Personalities, indeed. That is pure truth and I was hoping it was more generic and universal. This is a school with a full HR dept. so I'll assume it more professional than the others that have had teachers in their off time interview me.
Thanks Red, you are a credit to this website!
better to know, now
I agree.
If asking for a little more puts them into a tailspin, that is a bad sign for the school that I'm going to spend the next 2 years with.
If asking for a little more puts them into a tailspin, that is a bad sign for the school that I'm going to spend the next 2 years with.
Negotiate!!!
If you are not able to live with or are unhappy with your salary they can only say no. And if the admin is the type to get offended by such a universal method of discourse then do you REALLY want to work with them?
Be choosy and value your abilities because once you are "onboard" and sign that contract the opportunities to negotiate about anything are pretty much gone.
This is the ONLY time in the whole process when you are actually on equal footing - or even have more advantage than - the admin, so don't blow it because you don't want to offend.
If you are not able to live with or are unhappy with your salary they can only say no. And if the admin is the type to get offended by such a universal method of discourse then do you REALLY want to work with them?
Be choosy and value your abilities because once you are "onboard" and sign that contract the opportunities to negotiate about anything are pretty much gone.
This is the ONLY time in the whole process when you are actually on equal footing - or even have more advantage than - the admin, so don't blow it because you don't want to offend.
derPhysik.
I'm surprised but the amount of money you want to up the offer by. One thing to consider is the cost of living and the savings potential in Vietnam. I am all for trying to negotiate a higher salary. But when you make a counter offer, my best suggestion is to consider what the cost of living is a particular country is like and what your savings potential is. You may discover that the extra 5K you want may not be necessary. If it's a job you really desire, you might consider settling for less.
Good luck.
I'm surprised but the amount of money you want to up the offer by. One thing to consider is the cost of living and the savings potential in Vietnam. I am all for trying to negotiate a higher salary. But when you make a counter offer, my best suggestion is to consider what the cost of living is a particular country is like and what your savings potential is. You may discover that the extra 5K you want may not be necessary. If it's a job you really desire, you might consider settling for less.
Good luck.
Thank you
Ichiro, I thank you and your words are valuable. Your time and thought are appreciated by a community of teachers.
Let me clarify something, that I think everyone reading noticed but you may have missed. I did NOT say that teachers are cattle. I DID say that they are, "treated like cattle". There is a world of difference in those two statements.
Secondly, your opinions are interesting and everyone can read them with their own mind. For myself, I love students and love my job. But if you think that I am going sacrifice my own fiscal well-being so that the school can save money, you are naive. I am not a missionary, and I am not interested in working to enrich the owners of a school. I am a professional, who can help students learn with experience and expertise. I will participate in a fair exchange my knowledge and work for money and all that represents. The market place is where you ask for what you want. How you handle rejection, laughing, or loss is your personal business. For myself, I'm going to get paid every single dime I am in a position to earn and possibly join a long line of people who were laughed at on their way to getting everything they want.
I've discussed my counter offer with my home-boys and most think I'm overboard. Still working on it. I've gotten the contract and will be signing it (or not) in 48 hours. I'll post here how it went.
Let me clarify something, that I think everyone reading noticed but you may have missed. I did NOT say that teachers are cattle. I DID say that they are, "treated like cattle". There is a world of difference in those two statements.
Secondly, your opinions are interesting and everyone can read them with their own mind. For myself, I love students and love my job. But if you think that I am going sacrifice my own fiscal well-being so that the school can save money, you are naive. I am not a missionary, and I am not interested in working to enrich the owners of a school. I am a professional, who can help students learn with experience and expertise. I will participate in a fair exchange my knowledge and work for money and all that represents. The market place is where you ask for what you want. How you handle rejection, laughing, or loss is your personal business. For myself, I'm going to get paid every single dime I am in a position to earn and possibly join a long line of people who were laughed at on their way to getting everything they want.
I've discussed my counter offer with my home-boys and most think I'm overboard. Still working on it. I've gotten the contract and will be signing it (or not) in 48 hours. I'll post here how it went.
ichiro, I definitely feel your ambivalence about negotiating with a non profit school. Being in a low demand area, last year I was unable to find work here at home and a sudden, fantastic vacancy came up due to a runner. This was at an excellent school & I was really lucky to be in the right spot at the right time. They're definitely non profit. I had no idea what I was doing, but like I said, was very lucky. The school gave me credit for years that were not teaching full time but were in my profession (I wasn't sure if I was going to be applying to colleges or to secondary schools, so the CV was written really for college teaching: professional activity, research, service, etc.). When I asked one other teacher (only) about whether she ever got credit for years that a union at home might not allow, she said in essence, that she considered that the offer that the school was making her. I did not go into specifics with her and decided to shut up. : ) But those years could be justified with professional activity in my field.
I came home last Sept because the position was a temporary one and my local district is giving me credit for exactly ZERO years of teaching, even though they wanted me very specifically for each year that I have taught full time, each for their own reasons. In light of how little I'm working (it's not a full time gig), that money would have meant so little to them. I think they thought they might keep me, and that I'd be fine spending the rest of my career having started from zero with them. I'm not. But I guess this is just to say that negotiating, even with a public school with a salary scale, is a delicate and subtle business but still exists and should be done. It's important. In April I'm still unhappy about it. Hopefully something good will happen for next year.
I came home last Sept because the position was a temporary one and my local district is giving me credit for exactly ZERO years of teaching, even though they wanted me very specifically for each year that I have taught full time, each for their own reasons. In light of how little I'm working (it's not a full time gig), that money would have meant so little to them. I think they thought they might keep me, and that I'd be fine spending the rest of my career having started from zero with them. I'm not. But I guess this is just to say that negotiating, even with a public school with a salary scale, is a delicate and subtle business but still exists and should be done. It's important. In April I'm still unhappy about it. Hopefully something good will happen for next year.