The International Schools Review Forum

@zanyplum

That doesnt really mean anything. Exclusivity isnt a measure of quality, many schools say reject applicants (staff and student) and spin it as an indicator of excellence. Fit is also a major factor, an exceptional teacher may not fit in well with the culture and ethos of the school but doesnt indicate they are substandard. UWC is just a well paying cult, they arent any different than other chain schools like QSI, minus the theology.

@tck4life

Thank you for the sales pitch. Its still a 2nd tier chain school with a scholarship program for the non-affluent. There are domestic public and regulated IB schools with kids that have high IB exam scores as well. So there are affluent kids, who arent as high performers, or with high levels of achievement as their parents upper class resources would imply. Thats nothing new or surprising to anyone in public policy or educational policy. Of course your program is exclusive your marketed to a MUCH larger client/student base. If every US student applied to the UN school in NY, because they offered such a scholarship program, they would have an artificially and extremely high rejection rate as well.
Thats really the issue here, its a 2nd tier (nothing wrong with that) school with a GREAT scholarship program. Its the scholarship, not the school. The school and the quality of education delivered is no different or betetr than any well resourced private school, and that success isnt your school or your faculty, its your students you get to select the best of the best who wouldnt otherwise be contenders without the financial incentive. So yes their are highly intelligent and motivated under privileged, water is also wet.
Take away the scholarship and the financing and talk about your bragging rights when you have to compete for tuition dollars in the market like everyone else, and then pound your chest and proclaim your first tier.
Your altruism is notable and even applaud-able, but it is simply not a variable in the metric of tier status, and you dont get extra credit for having angels on your side.

@Donald

I am not dear to you.

This is a conversation not formal writing, and when admin cheerleaders have too wear the spelling/grammar police hat, its indicative that 1) their position is too weak to withstand debate, and 2) the ad hominem attacks are forthcoming.

I was not attacking you, I was categorizing you, your an admin cheerleader (since your not an admin). That conclusion based on my assumptions is still true.

You didnt have a point, you had chest beating and rhetoric and oratory, that relied on the presumption that your claims were either self evident (they are not) or self authenticating (they are not).

Every IS is a product of its process, UWCs pathway is no more meritorious than any other ISs. You got to the same destination, there is no nobility of value in how you got there or in how internationalization was born of necessity or desire. Outcomes matter, everything else is sales and marketing. Survival is a virtue of necessity the necessity does not mitigate the virtue. Purpose doesnt matter, intent doesnt matter, realized outcomes and products matter.
Your not completely different, your very much the same. Your a school, you deliver a curriculum, in an environment that promotes individual growth, delf development and realization of global citizens. That or whatever one of the thousands of warm feel good statements you want to use to define education. Your doing the exact same thing as every other schools that thinks its special too, and when everyone is special, no ones special. The VAST majority of ISs recruit international students and international faculty, in addition Birds fly, and fish swim, grass is green, and on a clear day the sky is blue.

Your pitch reads as a late night infomercial about:
"Some revolutionary TOTALLY DIFFERENT and new learning process by which academics and scholars have determined that if you put a young person/participant in a room with other like aged participants and surround them with amazing resources and technology under the guidance and tutelage of a specially trained and educated mentor facilitator, this revolutionary process with transfer the knowledge from the mentor facilitator into the participants, this TOTALLY DIFFERENT and revolutionary new process can be yours for the sum of $80,000USD, but for a select few we have available financial benefit programs that will reduce your cost to ZERO. Act now as quantities are limited, and competition is expected to be high."
Thats called teaching and learning and its the same thing everyone else is doing.

I have no problem admitting my errors and mistakes, and I have done so in the past. Im just not wrong because you deem is so. Your opinion does not invalidate my opinion. Nor does your rhetoric and oratory and organizational ego invalidate my conclusions or -.
There is nothing foolish or in error about my claims. Your characterizations of them as foolish, idiotic, etc are not self authenticating or self evident merely because those are your opinions. Those qualities do not exist because you declare them to be. This is not a popularity contest, nor is it "Pop Ed.), reality is not malleable to social pressure or popular opinion, regardless of the quantity of dissenting opinion.

Your process of evaluation is exactly as described in the ownership model. You believe exclusivity makes you tier one. It does not.
UWC is a 2nd tier chain school, with a nice scholarship program, and a brutal admissions/recruiting process, but still a second tier school.

PsyGuy - for a select few it costs $80,000 USD a year. For everybody else, it is free for them. As mentioned, I have had several students attend a UWC, from public school in Canada. The process was far far more rigorous than getting into any international school that I know of.

You're wrong on this one.

shad

@shadowjack

We disagree
Exclusivity and selective admissions do not influence the quality of a schools tier status.
Its not free, its $80K for everyone, the difference is who is absorbing the cost and paying the invoice.

For the last 8 years I have been in South East Asia working at schools in the IASAS conference. IASAS includes schools that most folks routinely rank as Tier 1; Singapore American, IS Bangkok, ISKL, etc. UWCSEA in Singapore is considered by everyone I have ever spoken with in the region to be on par with the very best schools in the region, and the world. I have no idea about the other UWC locations, but there really isn't any debate among educators in Asia about the quality of UWCSEA.

Years ago I failed to even get a second interview there. Think I messed up the initial question of "What makes you think you are good enough to work for UWCSEA?'" I thought they were joking...they weren't. Pompous little Brits, but a quality school.

@jesatlarge

We disagree.

As has been discussed UWC SG is an outlier, its their flag ship "showplace" school. The post was originally about the new UWC Armenia, and my response is an evaluation of the UWC group at large. UWC is a second tier school group, but even in SG I wouldnt put them in 1st tier with SAS and Tanglin, the first tier is just small, the top couple of percent, and I see no rational based on merit to make room for them in first tier. Its UWC SG that gets them up too second tier. There is nothing wrong with second tier.

I would have replied "If I wasnt good enough why are you talking with me."

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like a decent group of schools to work for. My biggest concern is having enough to do in my free time. I'm in my 30s and whilst I don't expect to be some sort of . animal in terms of the local nightlife, it does seem out of the way of everywhere.

Dear PsyGuy,

You are certainly a person of strong opinions - a kind of Sarah Palin of international school commentary, though perhaps without Sarah's charm and intellect.
Rather than point out the flaws in your argument, let's try to approach this from a different angle by focusing on two claims that you make with such certainty.
First of these is that UWC Singapore is the flagship of the movement. I know the UWCs well, and I have never heard this notion before. I am very sure that the Singapore school itself would never dare to make such a statement, so tell us what is your evidence for saying this.
Second is your assertion that the UWC schools are some kind of second tier chain. Have you ever worked in a UWC? Have you ever interviewed for a job at a UWC? Have your children been to a UWC? Have you read or heard reviews that encourage you to reach such a conclusion?
My suspicion is that you have no rational, substantive evidence to back up either claim, and that you will respond with more bluster. Prove me wrong.

Psyguy, you might as well just say the entire IB is a cult and a second-rate curriculum model. Do you know the history of the IB and UWCs? I don't think anyone, including yourself, has any idea what you're talking about.

Not that the IB is perfect. Indeed many of the best international schools are not IB, and many IB schools are very bad. But that's another subject.

@SonnyCrockett
The issue of isolation does present itself at some UWCs. Though the campus life can be almost overwhelmingly active, some of the schools do struggle with separation of school/CAS/dorm life and ones personal life. It's a double edge sword because in order to create the intense experiential nature, the communities can function in a bit of a "bubble." For teachers with small children this can be ideal, like any boarding school. But for singles and teachers with kids who are still too young to apply to the program it can be a challenge-- especially UWC Pearson, USA, Atlantic, India, Swaziland, Armenia and Shanghai. If a family has children, it can be hard to find good local schools to send your own children. The schools in the Netherlands, Costa Rica, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bosnia, Germany and Italy are located nearer to towns with public transportation and more of a night life for teachers (and students!)

To clarify what Shadowjack mentioned about fee payers..only Singapore and Maastricht have fee payers for the K-10 grades that go through a regular individual school process for admission. This tuition is set by the school and is certainly not the 80,000 mentioned. For the DP program only, students go through the National Committees. In the past, the schools had an agreement to only accept those who went through the process. If a student did not get accepted, but made it in to the final interviews, they could choose to become fee payers at certain schools. The scholarship is worth 80,000 for 2 years because it is room/board/education. However, the national committees pay substantially less and donors like Davis make up the difference.
That is why Singapore is unlike any other UWC and clearly NOT "the flagship". They function more like a regular international school and compete with other international schools in the region. It is probably why so many International teachers are familiar with it. Certainly, College of the Atlantic is considered the flagship of the movement Each school has its strengths and weaknesses. They are in NO way a chain. The UWCs were some of the first schools in the world to adopt the IB and its teachers were involved in writing much of the early curriculum.

Having facts, experience and information does not make it a "sales pitch." It enable one to answer questions based on something other than farfetched theory and stubborn ignorance.

Strangely enough, I just heard from a former student about something unconnected with this. However, I asked him about UWCSEA because I know my student had gone there after leaving the school I was at. It turns out that my student went to both SAS AND UWCSEA - SAS first and then UWC. I will share with you some excerpts that my student had to share with me...

"SAS is larger, more "American" and follows the AP system. More importantly, the atmosphere is very very different. SAS is the typical "Expat American School". It has smart students and good faculty, but they are not on the same level as UWC."

My student goes on to say, "UWC has a very different approach to education. It is far more liberal, the students are extremely academically focused, but follow it up with a holistic knowledge.: The faculty isn't rigid at all and most of them act as entrepreneurs in education."

[Teachers] have their own personal interests, while it may be rock music, green initiatives, etc, and they take this forward by creating external programs for kids who ACTUALLY care about these initiatives and dedicate dedicate time to them. There is a whole GC (global concern) system which is essentially school based NGO programs. Here, students get involved with (or create their onw, at a later stage), social initiatives."

"Essentially, UWC is far more holistic and liberal than SAS. For a simple example, there is no such thing as a detention at UWC, never has been and I don't think there has ever been a need either. But by no means is SAS a bad school."

My student goes on to say that, "Most likely you'll find the opposite (of our former school we were both at), kids that care to much about work. And surprisingly, while there might be parents that push them, the majority of the kids push themselves."

My student is pretty astute. So, for those who are wondering about some of the differences between SAS and UWC, here are some "from the student's mouth". In the end, both are tier 1 schools for Singapore.

Hope this helps,

shad

Wow. This thread is hilarious.

Psy Guy has managed to invent 4 different methodologies for establishing a school's "tier" without actually describing a single criterion or providing a single metric. That's some feat.

@SonnyCrockett

It depends what you mean and define as decent. The pay is good, but youll work for every single penny, and theyll take a pound of flesh. They dont just want IB they want innovative IB. Its not reinventing the wheel, they want a better wheel.

@Donald

Prove your right, I see no reason to absorb the sole burden of proof. You have claims prove them, you have no fiat power or presumption of the status quo.

More ad hominem attacks, if you really considered your position superior, meritorious, you would refrain from the character and personal assassination, and allow the strength of your position stand on its own merits.

Im sure they wouldnt speak against doctrine either. UWCSEA is an IS (International School) UWC Atlantic College is a domestic school. Its a UK school, in the UK that runs an IB program. Its no different then the other 100+ regulated and independent schools in the UK running an IB program. UWCSEA is the flagship INTERNATIONAL SCHOOL for UWC, of which it is referred to by a significant number of professionals.

I dont have children.
Yes I have, Ive been there twice, and met with a number of staff at IB workshops in SG and Asia. Ive been the recipient of a number of reports from former UWC staff, supporting my position. Before you attack the veracity of "these fallen", thats the typical defense of everyone for politicians and cults that those dispelled or having left from the organization should have their complaints dismissed, as sour grapes.

@lookingforlefty

The IB is a cult, Ive written as much before and completely agree with you. Its a glorious, wonderful cult, and I love their Koolaid, but they are still a cult.

I am very familiar with the IBs history.

Curriculum doesnt make tier status (unless your using the ownership model, and thats your criterion). There are third tier, second tier, and first tier IB schools. Yokohama IS is a first tier IB school in Asia.

@tck4life

80,000 is still the value and cost for those services and the program, regardless of the source of funding thats the ledger book value of the scholarship award, and its real money that pays for the costs of operation.

That is the very definition of a school chain, a group of schools united under one ethos.

Nothing ive stated that are regarded as facts are any less factual then your statements. Claims that its not a chain, and this school isnt a flagship, and lifestyle differences are opinions. You spin those opinions into marketing and that is a sales pitch.

@shadowjack

Thats a great description between the two schools, and its the same general description of any American curriculum and IB school, which has nothing to do with tier status. Its nothing more than too different educational methodologies and pedagogues.

Still doesnt makes UWC SG a tier one school.

@auntiesocial

They arent methods, methods are procedures and protocols (IE. instruments) for achieving prescribed outcomes in an algorithmic or heuristic process. They are models, which describe conceptual systems. Several of these models have intrinsic criterion, based on definition inherent to the model. Two of them do not (though I do have a methodology and criterion for the educator model), they arent relevant though, because the models describe the shape and form of the data and how they are aggregated. Models are not instruments.

Psy Guy.

A Criterion: (n) 'a standard why which something may be judged'. (OED). If you had any form of statistical literacy, you would know that any discussion of percentiles, curves or standard deviation requires values or quantifiable measurements to be -. You have not provided a single way of establishing your "data" in order to "shape and form" it, as you so put it.

Your attempts to obfuscate through pseudo statistical and pseudo scientific language, in addition to your vast armoury of red-herrings and non-sequiturs, do not remove the fact that you have not provided a objective justification for why UWC Singapore is a "2nd Tier" school. You've also employed the burden-of-proof fallacy - suggesting that others need to disprove your position, without the need to actually justify your own position. Remember that it is you that advanced the argument that UWC Singapore is a 2nd Tier school, yet you still fail to tell us why.

The fact remains that the 'Teir' "system" is your own subjective invention. There is no generally established basis to evaluate a school's relative standing in the community - only hearsay and unreliable anecdotal evidence from current and former staff and parents. And because you yourself have correctly discounted examination results from being a reliable metric, you are left with no real justification for awarding a particular tier.

Perhaps it's time you cut your losses with this argument? It's clear that you have some sort of chip on your shoulder with respect to UWC, which is obviously clouding your judgement.

I'm with @auntiesocial on this one, this is a cracking thread. It's like a "Hall of Fame" of Psyguy's dross, we have the admin cheerleader, the Tier status definition, the random statistics, the "facts" according to Psyguy, paragraphs of edu-speak which actually say nothing and at the end a total inability to accept any opinion other than his own. Classic!

@tck4life Thanks for sharing some really good info and insight that related to the initial thread. UWCSEA is well known and respected by those with any sense, but the other UWC schools are less well known I suspect, other than by those who have first hand experience of them, that was very useful.

Even though I applied to UWCSEA (and never heard back), I got the feeling that whatever the UWCs were looking for, it wasn't me. At least I know why my current school is in business and who I have to keep happy so they can make money. I don't really know how a UWC works. A lot of people have great reverence for UWC, and they seem to have a big name in some circles, but not a lot of crossover between them and mainstream international schools.

I definitely wouldn't go out to Armenia to work for one unless I was their 'type'.