This is a very broad question. There are many factors involved (let alone interplaying with each other ) to create a "toxic" or "non-toxic" environment:
a) For-profit or not-for-profit : Some not-for-profit are corrupt in terms of office politics, who rises above all others etc. But yet, you also have not-for-profit schools that really do care about the curriculum standards, children etc. This goes the same for the for-profit ones.
b) Curriculum standards : Each school has its own unique degree of how well they are sticking to the curriculum standards or even improving the standards....or on the other end of the spectrum, NOT doing their job and making up a mish-mash of curriculum of sorts that COULD or COULD not work for the actual learning of the kids which is a subjective matter altogether.
c) Salary & Benefits Package: Some teachers could consider the salary and benefits package as the determinants of happiness in life. So if a school pays low and yet the curriculum standards are applied, the students are wonderfully happy and the parents are overall supportive and kind...the school can be still considered " toxic " by the individual teachers who define success and happiness in other ways.
d) Location: You can have the best school ( package, benefits, student body, parental support, principal guidance ) at the worst location in the world. Does this mean that the school is " toxic"? Or on the other end of the spectrum, you can have the most terrible school in a great location ( e.g. one school in Istanbul ).
e) Co-workers: Some staff are just naturally toxic and "bullyish". Some administrators and bosses are toxic and " bullyish ". This is a whole complex system of relationships that play with each other to create a context / environment!
f) Public system and Private system "autonomy" : With the public school system, you don't have much freedom with what you really teach. With the private school system, you do ( and yet, some schools do not offer this as well ).
And there are hundreds more of factors such as the ones above that I have mentioned.
I think that one has to read between the lines of criticism on international schools around the world. For one thing, you mentioned that there is an overall negative view of international schools around the world...BY WHOM? According to whom? The PUBLIC school teachers? The PUBLIC school administrators? Private schools in NORTH AMERICA ? ( where every standards seems to be defined by! ).
Are international schools toxic?
I don't think its any different from the North American scene. You have to remember that these reviews represent a small fraction of the teachers out there and lets be honest, if you are having a great experience are you going to take the time to sit down and write about it. That is unless you are coming to the defense of a school or an admin that has been blasted.
I think people lose sight of the fact that it's school, you are working with a wide variety of people both as colleagues, students, parents and support staff and the frustrations are going to be there and the excitement and mystery of living overseas can only mask it for so long. I also think the fact that international teachers have mobility makes them prone to pining for the other side of the fence where the grass is always greener. Lets face it, if you were back in North America how often are you going to move? In my case, the answer was probably zero once I got seniority in my district.
Its also a big commitment to move overseas and we all want the best, especially if we are hauling our children with us, or made financial commitments back home or did a little bragging about moving overseas or went against family wishes. Its easy to get disappointed fast and now the ISR has made it easy for us to vent.
I think people lose sight of the fact that it's school, you are working with a wide variety of people both as colleagues, students, parents and support staff and the frustrations are going to be there and the excitement and mystery of living overseas can only mask it for so long. I also think the fact that international teachers have mobility makes them prone to pining for the other side of the fence where the grass is always greener. Lets face it, if you were back in North America how often are you going to move? In my case, the answer was probably zero once I got seniority in my district.
Its also a big commitment to move overseas and we all want the best, especially if we are hauling our children with us, or made financial commitments back home or did a little bragging about moving overseas or went against family wishes. Its easy to get disappointed fast and now the ISR has made it easy for us to vent.
Good Comments and Replies
The past posters have given some really useful responses, especially Android (some of the simplest things can make a job go so bad).
Understand that his website is a dump site for negative comments. Its pretty much the complaint department that people use to vent, and to give a different perspective to the idea of "Toxic". Its because their is so little closure when a job goes bad and the reason I feel is because loosing an international position doesnt just interrupt your life, it uproots your home.
When your back home (in the States) and your job ata school district or with a private school goes wrong, and you loose your job. First, you know what to do, you understand the legal system, the language, what your recourses are. Maybe you have a union you can contact. Maybe you know the district has to give you a hearing, that you can appeal. You can if you want probabley hire an attorney and sue. Whatever you do, eventually you go home. And maybe you have a couple beers, or put in a movie and eat icecream, but you have a home to go to. Youve lost your job not your life.
When you loose an international job, which is usually in the first year, when the country is still pretty new and foreign to you. You dont know anything, and access to information is likely to be in a language you dont understand, so you dont know what you can do if anything. If your in asia, and you have provided housing the school isnt likely to let you stay in it for very long. On top of that your visa/wor permit is likely to become invalidated pretty quickly. Lastly, the school is likely to provide you a plane ticket with a very early departure. Basically, when you loose your job at an international school you have to go home and pack.
So you go home, pack, get on the plane and then where do you go when you land? You dont have a job, and probabley dont have a home. Its this feeling of powerlessness, that makes people so very angry, and thats why they describe such toxic experiences.
Understand that his website is a dump site for negative comments. Its pretty much the complaint department that people use to vent, and to give a different perspective to the idea of "Toxic". Its because their is so little closure when a job goes bad and the reason I feel is because loosing an international position doesnt just interrupt your life, it uproots your home.
When your back home (in the States) and your job ata school district or with a private school goes wrong, and you loose your job. First, you know what to do, you understand the legal system, the language, what your recourses are. Maybe you have a union you can contact. Maybe you know the district has to give you a hearing, that you can appeal. You can if you want probabley hire an attorney and sue. Whatever you do, eventually you go home. And maybe you have a couple beers, or put in a movie and eat icecream, but you have a home to go to. Youve lost your job not your life.
When you loose an international job, which is usually in the first year, when the country is still pretty new and foreign to you. You dont know anything, and access to information is likely to be in a language you dont understand, so you dont know what you can do if anything. If your in asia, and you have provided housing the school isnt likely to let you stay in it for very long. On top of that your visa/wor permit is likely to become invalidated pretty quickly. Lastly, the school is likely to provide you a plane ticket with a very early departure. Basically, when you loose your job at an international school you have to go home and pack.
So you go home, pack, get on the plane and then where do you go when you land? You dont have a job, and probabley dont have a home. Its this feeling of powerlessness, that makes people so very angry, and thats why they describe such toxic experiences.
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
All good points raised here. PsyGuy, I think you've hit the nail on the head with your comment about people feeling that they have no control over a situation. After 15 years in the international circuit, I have nothing but good things to say about this lifestyle. One has to be savvy about the types of schools to avoid and be strategic about getting to one's dream school. Get the trainining you need, build experiences so you really are the best professional the school could hope for and network, network, network. If the place isn't working for you, keep moving - there are lots of jobs out there. We left a very high paying job because we were tired of working 6 -7 days a week and couldn't stand the "high school -like" social scene. The old timers were the "in crowd" and there were rumors, politics and games played. Yuck - who needs all that? We're now at a much smaller school with nice colleagues, great kids and supportive families. We still make decent money but life is much less stressful.
Take the reviews on this site with a grain of salt, be on the lookout for patterns and get to know the administrators and school cultures to avoid. We'd love to find a place in Europe but the buzz is that teachers stay forever and that a sense of entitlement settles in. I can have that in any large high school in the US - that's not what I came overseas to experience. Now we're re-thinking the desire to go to Europe - we'll save it for vacations!
Take the reviews on this site with a grain of salt, be on the lookout for patterns and get to know the administrators and school cultures to avoid. We'd love to find a place in Europe but the buzz is that teachers stay forever and that a sense of entitlement settles in. I can have that in any large high school in the US - that's not what I came overseas to experience. Now we're re-thinking the desire to go to Europe - we'll save it for vacations!
I am only speaking from my own experience ( most specifically to Tokyo, Japan and one school in Europe)....but for around 10 years of international teaching experience at three international schools, I can honestly state that I would NEVER EVER want to go back home to teach. Life is too good abroad.
There's an adventurous " high roller " quality to teaching in the international sphere, especially in Tokyo. Why else would I go home if I have a huge student body who wants to learn and deliver results that are off the chart? Parents are genuinely caring, concerned and ACTUALLY respect teachers because of the way the culture has regarded teachers and their roles in society for centuries. Now of course, we don't get that same type of attitude from the foreign parents but they are just as supportive, caring and involved at home in the children's education. The school provides a lot of perks, opens up opportunities all over the world because of its name and reputation and overall, Japan is a pretty awesome place to live. Last but definitely not least, the salary and benefits package is wonderful. Most of us here past the 7 years with additional qualifications and postgraduate degrees are making the 6-figure digits, AS WE DESERVE. With yen being so strong and the only East Asian currency to beat out the North American dollars, I actually profit by a fair bit just by playing the exchange game. Parents are from the richest of the stock in politics, economics and medicine. We are provided opportunities to invest in stocks at the TSE (Tokyo Stock Exchange) and the Board of Directors take very good care of us in that sometimes, I feel that they are our "union" out here. We also have autonomy in our classrooms. Yes, there is THE standard curriculum that we have to abide by, but the private international sphere tends to give more autonomy to teachers in the classroom set up, strategies, materials to bring in for extra reading etc etc.
The main point here is this : First and foremost, Japan and its culture suits my character and personality. That's why I am able to be healthy (physically, psychologically, emotionally etc etc ) to be the best teacher that I can be at a school that is genuinely great. Even if I was in a school that was less appealing, I think I would still be able to thwart off the negatives with ease ( like water rolling off a duck's back ) because the culture is not stressful to my character. I think many newbies tend to choose some random country for adventure without really considering the consequences of actually WORKING there. It's not a vacation. It's a job ...most of all, a career.
Yes, there are some downs too: We don't have the protection of a union and you have to play the "office political field" a fair bit but I think it provides a lot of valuable lessons. We work pretty hard ( but this is not enforced. One just becomes obligated to work when you live in the Japanese culture for so long ).
But for me, the ups have outweighed the downs by far. I suppose, it's a matter of really looking at the schools and being critical of whether they will also suit one's personality, character, professional / future goals.
There's an adventurous " high roller " quality to teaching in the international sphere, especially in Tokyo. Why else would I go home if I have a huge student body who wants to learn and deliver results that are off the chart? Parents are genuinely caring, concerned and ACTUALLY respect teachers because of the way the culture has regarded teachers and their roles in society for centuries. Now of course, we don't get that same type of attitude from the foreign parents but they are just as supportive, caring and involved at home in the children's education. The school provides a lot of perks, opens up opportunities all over the world because of its name and reputation and overall, Japan is a pretty awesome place to live. Last but definitely not least, the salary and benefits package is wonderful. Most of us here past the 7 years with additional qualifications and postgraduate degrees are making the 6-figure digits, AS WE DESERVE. With yen being so strong and the only East Asian currency to beat out the North American dollars, I actually profit by a fair bit just by playing the exchange game. Parents are from the richest of the stock in politics, economics and medicine. We are provided opportunities to invest in stocks at the TSE (Tokyo Stock Exchange) and the Board of Directors take very good care of us in that sometimes, I feel that they are our "union" out here. We also have autonomy in our classrooms. Yes, there is THE standard curriculum that we have to abide by, but the private international sphere tends to give more autonomy to teachers in the classroom set up, strategies, materials to bring in for extra reading etc etc.
The main point here is this : First and foremost, Japan and its culture suits my character and personality. That's why I am able to be healthy (physically, psychologically, emotionally etc etc ) to be the best teacher that I can be at a school that is genuinely great. Even if I was in a school that was less appealing, I think I would still be able to thwart off the negatives with ease ( like water rolling off a duck's back ) because the culture is not stressful to my character. I think many newbies tend to choose some random country for adventure without really considering the consequences of actually WORKING there. It's not a vacation. It's a job ...most of all, a career.
Yes, there are some downs too: We don't have the protection of a union and you have to play the "office political field" a fair bit but I think it provides a lot of valuable lessons. We work pretty hard ( but this is not enforced. One just becomes obligated to work when you live in the Japanese culture for so long ).
But for me, the ups have outweighed the downs by far. I suppose, it's a matter of really looking at the schools and being critical of whether they will also suit one's personality, character, professional / future goals.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
[quote="Android"]I am only speaking from my own experience ( most specifically to Tokyo, Japan and one school in Europe)....but for around 10 years of international teaching experience at three international schools, I can honestly state that I would NEVER EVER want to go back home to teach. Life is too good abroad.
There's an adventurous " high roller " quality to teaching in the international sphere, especially in Tokyo. Why else would I go home if I have a huge student body who wants to learn and deliver results that are off the chart? Parents are genuinely caring, concerned and ACTUALLY respect teachers because of the way the culture has regarded teachers and their roles in society for centuries. Now of course, we don't get that same type of attitude from the foreign parents but they are just as supportive, caring and involved at home in the children's education. The school provides a lot of perks, opens up opportunities all over the world because of its name and reputation and overall, Japan is a pretty awesome place to live. Last but definitely not least, the salary and benefits package is wonderful. Most of us here past the 7 years with additional qualifications and postgraduate degrees are making the 6-figure digits, AS WE DESERVE. [/quote]
Yes, you are definitely in one of the dream postings. Well deserved I am sure (and so I will try not to hate you too much). Do you ever get take out from Stamina by the train station? Mmmm. Karaage with chili sauce.
We also loved Japan and found (most days) the culture and differences to be a huge plus as opposed to a hardship. Even in China, although life can be a bit rougher around the edges, I truly enjoy the adventurous aspects of daily living overseas. In the end, most of life is work, what's for dinner and we need toilet paper. Why not be buying toilet paper in Tokyo or Beijing?
Getting back to the OP, if there was a dumping ground for anonymous reviews of public schools/administrators in the US/UK, I am certain that the negative reviews would far outweigh the positives (even with labor laws and the comforts of one's home culture to soften the impact of a negative work environment).
There's an adventurous " high roller " quality to teaching in the international sphere, especially in Tokyo. Why else would I go home if I have a huge student body who wants to learn and deliver results that are off the chart? Parents are genuinely caring, concerned and ACTUALLY respect teachers because of the way the culture has regarded teachers and their roles in society for centuries. Now of course, we don't get that same type of attitude from the foreign parents but they are just as supportive, caring and involved at home in the children's education. The school provides a lot of perks, opens up opportunities all over the world because of its name and reputation and overall, Japan is a pretty awesome place to live. Last but definitely not least, the salary and benefits package is wonderful. Most of us here past the 7 years with additional qualifications and postgraduate degrees are making the 6-figure digits, AS WE DESERVE. [/quote]
Yes, you are definitely in one of the dream postings. Well deserved I am sure (and so I will try not to hate you too much). Do you ever get take out from Stamina by the train station? Mmmm. Karaage with chili sauce.
We also loved Japan and found (most days) the culture and differences to be a huge plus as opposed to a hardship. Even in China, although life can be a bit rougher around the edges, I truly enjoy the adventurous aspects of daily living overseas. In the end, most of life is work, what's for dinner and we need toilet paper. Why not be buying toilet paper in Tokyo or Beijing?
Getting back to the OP, if there was a dumping ground for anonymous reviews of public schools/administrators in the US/UK, I am certain that the negative reviews would far outweigh the positives (even with labor laws and the comforts of one's home culture to soften the impact of a negative work environment).
Different
I worked in Kyoto/Japan and I loved Japan, but hated the work. It wasnt the classes, the school the kids, the coworkers, the admins, the community. It was a top shelf experience and school, that being said the deal breaker for me was the amount of work. It was 60+ hours a week, 6/7 days a week. It just burned me out, and i never found enough time to do all the stuff "I" wanted to do. I always got the feeling that even though i wasnt required to do that much, I really couldnt say no, and i was always hearing from coworkers that if admins were not "pleased with your dedication/commitment" they would be able to quickly find someone who would "please" them. I didnt develop, or build a sense of "mutually content obligation". So while i'd like to go back to Japan, Id be weary about accepting another position at a high stress/pressure school.
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inspiration
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:52 am
Not Fair
Thats not a fair generalization. First of all, Japan is not "Cheap" its consistently ranked the most expensive country to live in (and Tokyo, takes the crown). Given there are top schools in other countries that make 6 figures.
I have to think that your coming from a place in the States at either a public school, or a very average private school. I'm not trying to be rude, but the workload, and performance stress at the top schools in the WORLD, are just not in the same class as the typical teacher experience. These schools arent like NY union teachers who make $100K a year and do nothing. These are schools were teachers are in competition with EVERY OTHER school in the world to see their students out perform EVERY OTHER student on the PLANET....
Thats a tall mandate for an educator, and its a work flow that requires ever increasing and unprecedented creativity, energy, and mastery of ones field. It is a position that requires zombie levels of stamina, and persistence. These are students, teachers, administrators, and parents chasing the ephemeral last .01% down the rabbit hole, and when thats done, THEN being offered the blue or red pill....
The best explanation i can give you is its the difference between taking a kid whos training for their High School Sports Team, and that same kid training for Olympic Gold....
(and even thats a poor description)
My point is, those teachers earn their gold, because they do something only a small minority of professional educators can do over a sustained period of time (have you ever done the NTSB certification process? Theres several demo lessons on video you have to submit. Imagine having each and every lesson, of each and every day at that same level of delivery and performance. Thats what its like).
I have a great deal of respect for teachers like Android, who can work professionally at that level, and for the record, im not one of them. I tried, and couldnt do it, I also dont make 6 figures either.
I have to think that your coming from a place in the States at either a public school, or a very average private school. I'm not trying to be rude, but the workload, and performance stress at the top schools in the WORLD, are just not in the same class as the typical teacher experience. These schools arent like NY union teachers who make $100K a year and do nothing. These are schools were teachers are in competition with EVERY OTHER school in the world to see their students out perform EVERY OTHER student on the PLANET....
Thats a tall mandate for an educator, and its a work flow that requires ever increasing and unprecedented creativity, energy, and mastery of ones field. It is a position that requires zombie levels of stamina, and persistence. These are students, teachers, administrators, and parents chasing the ephemeral last .01% down the rabbit hole, and when thats done, THEN being offered the blue or red pill....
The best explanation i can give you is its the difference between taking a kid whos training for their High School Sports Team, and that same kid training for Olympic Gold....
(and even thats a poor description)
My point is, those teachers earn their gold, because they do something only a small minority of professional educators can do over a sustained period of time (have you ever done the NTSB certification process? Theres several demo lessons on video you have to submit. Imagine having each and every lesson, of each and every day at that same level of delivery and performance. Thats what its like).
I have a great deal of respect for teachers like Android, who can work professionally at that level, and for the record, im not one of them. I tried, and couldnt do it, I also dont make 6 figures either.
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inspiration
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:52 am
Not really
Not really unheard of, I had a similar opportunity when I was in Hong Kong. That being said its not usually part of the "standard" compensation package.