HK RT question
HK RT question
Hi all, I completed student teaching in the states and I hold an expired level 1 NC license which I used (before it expired) to get QTS, NJ CEAS, and a preliminary CA credential. I'm one year away from upgrading my CA cert but my placement is within a non-accredited school. Also hold a Celta. I have a few years experience teaching esl and some math. How competitive would I be if I apply to HK's net scheme? Do I have enough to get RT status or would I need to take classes somewhere? Is QTS useful without a PGCE? Is a DELTA worth considering? Thanks in advance.
Re: HK RT question
I cannot see any credible international school in Hong Kong hiring you if you do not have a PGCE. I know a few people who tried to teach having American licenses in Hong Kong, but they were very strict about having PGCE.
Reponse
In direct reply to your inquiry.
Having a pro.edu credential is an advantage in NET, but your experience is on the lite side. All together its probably a wash, but depends what the recruiters are looking for in any particular year.
HK is an academic region. So much so that a PGCEi can get you RT but QTS alone or any pro.edu credential does not. The requirement is having the equivalent of a HK PGDE. If you do you can get RT status otherwise you would only be eligible for PT status. You would thus have to level up your academics with more courses to qualify for RT status.
QTS is very helpful even without a PGCE, its just that QTS with a PGCE is significantly more helpful. The PGCE (academic) pathway is still the norm by a substantial margin in BSs, despite the availability of other pathways.
A DELTA would fill a niche for an IT or ET depending on which career track they are wanting. A pro.edu credential will get you into IE, and within IE will get you through and even up into TLR roles, but without more such a Masters in Ed.Ld or other advanced degree you will hit a ceiling relatively fast. With a DELTA in private/corporate ESOL centers there are more leadership and management options without a Masters that a DELTA could make accessible. In IE a DELTA isnt worth anything, you could maybe negotiate for an extra step. Ina small IS you could potentially negotiate for a title upgrade, maybe even coordinating PTE ESOL instructors and conducting assessments, etc. if youre fortunate.
There are plenty of US and non-UK ETs/ITs working in HK. A substantial number have various edu Masters but many of them have US pro.edu credentials, but they got them through a Uni academic pathway either through a undergrad program, a post-graduate credentialing program (equivalent to a PGCE), or a Masters program.
A DELTA is generally less coin than a Masters but there are Uni (I.E. Buckingham) where the cost of a Masters (MA) would be about the same cost as a DELTA after the exam fees, etc. In comparison, the UPe M.Ed would be about £3100. Time is another issue. A Masters generally takes a year at a minimum. A DELTA can be done FTE in a F2F center in a few months. Distance/Online PTE programs take about 9 months to a year. The availability of a local training center and pursuing the program FTE in a f2F setting could have you done over a summer.
Having a pro.edu credential is an advantage in NET, but your experience is on the lite side. All together its probably a wash, but depends what the recruiters are looking for in any particular year.
HK is an academic region. So much so that a PGCEi can get you RT but QTS alone or any pro.edu credential does not. The requirement is having the equivalent of a HK PGDE. If you do you can get RT status otherwise you would only be eligible for PT status. You would thus have to level up your academics with more courses to qualify for RT status.
QTS is very helpful even without a PGCE, its just that QTS with a PGCE is significantly more helpful. The PGCE (academic) pathway is still the norm by a substantial margin in BSs, despite the availability of other pathways.
A DELTA would fill a niche for an IT or ET depending on which career track they are wanting. A pro.edu credential will get you into IE, and within IE will get you through and even up into TLR roles, but without more such a Masters in Ed.Ld or other advanced degree you will hit a ceiling relatively fast. With a DELTA in private/corporate ESOL centers there are more leadership and management options without a Masters that a DELTA could make accessible. In IE a DELTA isnt worth anything, you could maybe negotiate for an extra step. Ina small IS you could potentially negotiate for a title upgrade, maybe even coordinating PTE ESOL instructors and conducting assessments, etc. if youre fortunate.
There are plenty of US and non-UK ETs/ITs working in HK. A substantial number have various edu Masters but many of them have US pro.edu credentials, but they got them through a Uni academic pathway either through a undergrad program, a post-graduate credentialing program (equivalent to a PGCE), or a Masters program.
A DELTA is generally less coin than a Masters but there are Uni (I.E. Buckingham) where the cost of a Masters (MA) would be about the same cost as a DELTA after the exam fees, etc. In comparison, the UPe M.Ed would be about £3100. Time is another issue. A Masters generally takes a year at a minimum. A DELTA can be done FTE in a F2F center in a few months. Distance/Online PTE programs take about 9 months to a year. The availability of a local training center and pursuing the program FTE in a f2F setting could have you done over a summer.
Re: HK RT question
Thanks for the replies. If I wanted to work in international schools in HK then would I benefit from doing a distance PGCE with Sunderland? Would it also help me if I wanted to get on the NET scheme?
Reply
@intltchr
Theres really three questions here but first how did you get the NC credential? You state you did student teaching which is used more often with traditional academic pathways, so do you have a transcript from some Uni with edu coursework on it?
The Sunderland PGCEi (whatever they are calling it) specifically has been successfully used for meeting equivalency of a HK PGDE by the HKCAAVQ (there is a Sunderland campus in HK). Otherwise, generally to meet the requirements for RT status you need a pro.edu credential and suitable academic coursework.
You already have the credential (both the NJ CEAS, and QTS are acceptable) the question is if you have academic Uni coursework. If you dont the Sunderland PGCEi will likely meet the requirement. The Sunderland PGCEi is specifically valuable because you dont need a separate credential when applying. This is the position most ETs/ITs are in when applying. Yours is different you already have the credential. Its likely any PGCEi will meet the academic requirements along with your QTS, but as there is little difference you may as well do the Sunderland PGCEi.
It depends what NET is focusing on in any given year. Sometimes they just want younger people, sometimes they want people with a stronger edu background. It really just depends. A PGCEi or PGCE will probably increase the utility of a NET applicant. The issue is why you would do a PGCEi as opposed to a Masters. They take about the same length of time and cost about the same coin.
In IE a PGCEi or PGCE both with a credential would have some marketability and utility. In BSs leadership has a strong preference for a traditional PGCE and QTS, despite the many other pathways of getting QTS, and while a PGCEi is a working qualification in many (mostly third tier ISs) it typically doesnt serve well as you move to upper tiers. What will have far better utility is a Masters. You will get more coin with a Masters than with a PGCE(i) and an Ed.Ld Masters is the defacto qualification for leadership. There are other Masters programs that can open opportunities into other positions (counseling, library, technology, etc.).
If you have Uni edu coursework already you may want to first apply with what you have to the HKCAAVQ for equivalence based on what you have and see what the report generates. You may have no deficiencies or fewer deficiencies than a full PGDE/PGCE(i). At that point you can refine what your goals are.
Theres really three questions here but first how did you get the NC credential? You state you did student teaching which is used more often with traditional academic pathways, so do you have a transcript from some Uni with edu coursework on it?
The Sunderland PGCEi (whatever they are calling it) specifically has been successfully used for meeting equivalency of a HK PGDE by the HKCAAVQ (there is a Sunderland campus in HK). Otherwise, generally to meet the requirements for RT status you need a pro.edu credential and suitable academic coursework.
You already have the credential (both the NJ CEAS, and QTS are acceptable) the question is if you have academic Uni coursework. If you dont the Sunderland PGCEi will likely meet the requirement. The Sunderland PGCEi is specifically valuable because you dont need a separate credential when applying. This is the position most ETs/ITs are in when applying. Yours is different you already have the credential. Its likely any PGCEi will meet the academic requirements along with your QTS, but as there is little difference you may as well do the Sunderland PGCEi.
It depends what NET is focusing on in any given year. Sometimes they just want younger people, sometimes they want people with a stronger edu background. It really just depends. A PGCEi or PGCE will probably increase the utility of a NET applicant. The issue is why you would do a PGCEi as opposed to a Masters. They take about the same length of time and cost about the same coin.
In IE a PGCEi or PGCE both with a credential would have some marketability and utility. In BSs leadership has a strong preference for a traditional PGCE and QTS, despite the many other pathways of getting QTS, and while a PGCEi is a working qualification in many (mostly third tier ISs) it typically doesnt serve well as you move to upper tiers. What will have far better utility is a Masters. You will get more coin with a Masters than with a PGCE(i) and an Ed.Ld Masters is the defacto qualification for leadership. There are other Masters programs that can open opportunities into other positions (counseling, library, technology, etc.).
If you have Uni edu coursework already you may want to first apply with what you have to the HKCAAVQ for equivalence based on what you have and see what the report generates. You may have no deficiencies or fewer deficiencies than a full PGDE/PGCE(i). At that point you can refine what your goals are.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: HK RT question
I was hired by English Schools Foundation (but ended up having to turn down the position) quite a few years back now. At the time I had a BA in a non-education field, a professional US certificate from FL (that I obtained through an alternative route with no student teaching) and a few years teaching in the US + a couple of years teaching in a small int’l school. At that time they seemed quite unconcerned by my credential/background were very happy to offer me a job.
Re: HK RT question
Thanks for the replies everyone. I applied for HK RT status so now we'll see what I get in 15 business days. In response to PsyGuy, I enrolled in a traditional two year education course for graduate students back home that involves 3 semesters of observation and 1 semester of student teaching (all within local schools) along with in person edu classes at a state university. I have transcripts and a letter documenting my student teaching experience. If the edu coursework and student teaching isn't enough to get RT then I guess I can apply again after I upgrade my California cert as that will come with additional edu credits although I am not working at a regionally accredited school now.
Discussion
@WT123
Were they going to employ you as a PT or RT though? Getting PT status requires a bachelors/first degree and little else. Some HK ISs prefer employing an IT under the PT status scheme because the PT status is directly tied to the employer IS. The PT status is only valid for placement with the IS that sponsored it. The IS knows that PT status is less marketable than RT status which provides the IS an additional measure of control over the IT. They know the IT cant jump across or down the street so readily to another IS/DS. That a new IS would have to apply for a new issuance of a PT permit, which takes time, that the IS may not be able or willing to wait. The issuance can also be delayed for various administrative reasons that can be a deal breaker for the new IS. The IT gives notice to Acme AS, Acme AS dismisses the IT immediately. Genovia IS applies for PT status for the IT and waits 10 days. The application is denied with note that the application must be accompanied by the original degree scroll instead of a certified copy. Now the IT has to get the original degree which they either cant do, or the IS is unwilling to wait any longer. They void the contract and now the IT is jobless and has rent due in a few weeks, and now has to go job hunting. They may find something at another IS but if not they are going to have to contend themselves with ESOL work for the rest of the recruiting cycle. Not the best position to be in and is an incentive to stay with whatever the current IS is.
Were they going to employ you as a PT or RT though? Getting PT status requires a bachelors/first degree and little else. Some HK ISs prefer employing an IT under the PT status scheme because the PT status is directly tied to the employer IS. The PT status is only valid for placement with the IS that sponsored it. The IS knows that PT status is less marketable than RT status which provides the IS an additional measure of control over the IT. They know the IT cant jump across or down the street so readily to another IS/DS. That a new IS would have to apply for a new issuance of a PT permit, which takes time, that the IS may not be able or willing to wait. The issuance can also be delayed for various administrative reasons that can be a deal breaker for the new IS. The IT gives notice to Acme AS, Acme AS dismisses the IT immediately. Genovia IS applies for PT status for the IT and waits 10 days. The application is denied with note that the application must be accompanied by the original degree scroll instead of a certified copy. Now the IT has to get the original degree which they either cant do, or the IS is unwilling to wait any longer. They void the contract and now the IT is jobless and has rent due in a few weeks, and now has to go job hunting. They may find something at another IS but if not they are going to have to contend themselves with ESOL work for the rest of the recruiting cycle. Not the best position to be in and is an incentive to stay with whatever the current IS is.
Re: HK RT question
The report says my teacher training qualifications meet the requirements of the Education Bureau and is equivalent to a PgDE but no mention of RT or PT. I guess I need to be residing in HK before I can apply for RT but I think I meet all academic requirements. If I want to apply for the NET scheme then I think I can satisfy Category 5 requirements if I get a delta.
Reply
@intltchr
The HKCAAVQ is reporting you meet the professional/academic requirements for RT status (Professional grade) credential.
There are two agencies involved in the process. The HKCAAVQ which provides you the report you cited does not issue PT/RT status. This is made by the MOE (Education Bureau). You will now need to complete an application Form 8 and attach your documents. As part of the process you need to include a copy of your landing slip of entry into HK (thus you really need to be in HK when you apply).
Your qualifications are at the level of a PGDE. If you have an acceptable Diploma level TESOL certificate you would be eligible for appointment at category 1 or some other kind of acceptable certificate at less than Diploma level at category 2.
With RT status you can teach in HK for any IS/DS that will appoint you.
The HKCAAVQ is reporting you meet the professional/academic requirements for RT status (Professional grade) credential.
There are two agencies involved in the process. The HKCAAVQ which provides you the report you cited does not issue PT/RT status. This is made by the MOE (Education Bureau). You will now need to complete an application Form 8 and attach your documents. As part of the process you need to include a copy of your landing slip of entry into HK (thus you really need to be in HK when you apply).
Your qualifications are at the level of a PGDE. If you have an acceptable Diploma level TESOL certificate you would be eligible for appointment at category 1 or some other kind of acceptable certificate at less than Diploma level at category 2.
With RT status you can teach in HK for any IS/DS that will appoint you.
Re: HK RT question
Thanks for all of the input. I have one more issue. Do I need my California cert to work in HK? I don't want to pay out of pocket and go through the process to upgrade at my current school. If I let it expire then could I get it reinstated later? With QTS and CEAS, how much of a disadvantage am I at without it?
Reply
@intltchr
Your CA credential doesnt mean anything from the POV of the HK MOE. You either are an exempt ET teaching ESOL, or youre a permitted teacher (PT) or registered teacher (RT).
No, the CA Preliminary (Entry grade) credential is not renewable. You cant freeze it, and you cant renew it. There is a grey area where a DT with really good cause and sponsorship from an LEA can get an extension but thats not really applicable in this scenario. If the Preliminary credential expires you will have to clear whatever deficiencies that were included with your Preliminary credential to obtain the CLEAR (Professional grade) credential. No amount of lapsed time would allow you reapply for another Preliminary credential. Nor can you apply for a different clearance pathway than the one you were given with your initial pathway.
CA is the gold standard in the US NC but you dont need the CA credential with QTS and the NJ CEAS. The disadvantage if any is rather technical but from a practical position probably amounts to a trivial difference if any at all.
Your CA credential doesnt mean anything from the POV of the HK MOE. You either are an exempt ET teaching ESOL, or youre a permitted teacher (PT) or registered teacher (RT).
No, the CA Preliminary (Entry grade) credential is not renewable. You cant freeze it, and you cant renew it. There is a grey area where a DT with really good cause and sponsorship from an LEA can get an extension but thats not really applicable in this scenario. If the Preliminary credential expires you will have to clear whatever deficiencies that were included with your Preliminary credential to obtain the CLEAR (Professional grade) credential. No amount of lapsed time would allow you reapply for another Preliminary credential. Nor can you apply for a different clearance pathway than the one you were given with your initial pathway.
CA is the gold standard in the US NC but you dont need the CA credential with QTS and the NJ CEAS. The disadvantage if any is rather technical but from a practical position probably amounts to a trivial difference if any at all.
Re: HK RT question
It looks like the NET scheme now requires an English degree. Is there a cheap one I can do online that they might accept? Is there any chance they accept me without an English degree?
Another question I have is can I apply for RT status without a HK ID, employment, or permanent residence?
Are there other ways to get a work permit aside from the net scheme?
What can I do while I'm waiting in order to increase my chances of finding employment here?
Another question I have is can I apply for RT status without a HK ID, employment, or permanent residence?
Are there other ways to get a work permit aside from the net scheme?
What can I do while I'm waiting in order to increase my chances of finding employment here?
Reply
@intltchr
::looking for @Sid::
Depends how long is a piece of string?
Whats cheap and fast to you? It also depends how risk adverse you are when defining "degrees in education with specialism in English", how much English needs to be a part of the program of study.
HK will accept English degrees at either undergrad or graduate degree level so the best value for you in coin would be a Masters. The main issue is going to be how risk adverse are you between a specific TESOL Masters which will very very likely meet the requirements (assuming acceptable accreditation) and a more or less generic Masters in Education. The generic Education masters have much lower costs and generally shorter time to completion, with more open start times.
UPe has an online M.Ed thats about USD$5K and would take about a year, they have rolling admission times so you could start this summer and possibly have your degree in hand for NETs application season next year. Buckingham has an online MA in Edu. thats also about £5K and takes a year, their admission is fixed for Autumn intake, but youd be finished at about the same time as UPe. Both of these degrees though are generic Edu. Masters without an in depth focus on TESOL. UPe would have two literacy courses you could take, this might be enough for the HK MOE. Buckingham doesnt have any.
On the TESOL side. In the UK, Derby has an online MA TESOL that at the accelerated rate would take two years, though you may be able to get some credit for your previous studies to reduce that. The cost is about £8K. In the US, ACE has an M.Ed TESOL that you might be able to get done in a year. The cost is about USD$9K. Both programs have rolling or semi rolling admission dates. You could maybe, get the ACE program done in time for NETs application season next year. Which might also be possible at Derby if you have significant prior learning you can transfer/apply (not likely unless you have a DELTA). Another option might be Horizon Uni. (FR). Its an online, year long, MA TESOL for about €4K, but the main concern is it would essentially be a unaccredited degree.
There are many other options for an English degree. Your next best approach would be looking at returning to your undergrad Uni and doing a second major in English Lit. since most US general Edu. programs require two years of English Lit. courses in the form of a year of composition and a year of literature (genres) thats 12 credits out of a 30-36 hour program. You could possibly complete a second major in a year assuming the right courses are available and you can start with the summer term.
Another option to consider would be doing an MFA in Creative Writing. This would meet the HK NET requirements and is typically considered a terminal degree which might get you doctoral level coin. It would also qualify you for tenure/permanent university level appointments, which might be an option if your goal is to reside in HK long term. Concordia University has an online, two year, MFA Creative Writing program thats about USD$19K. What singles this program out from the others is that you can focus in non-fiction (though there are substantial course requirements in various genres of fiction) you can do your workshops and thesis on non-fiction such as an English Learners curriculum, which would be some form of textbook that youd complete as part of the degree.
No, they wouldnt accept you without the relevant English degree. NET isnt like JET where "acceptance" means a job placement. NET is a funding category. You still have to find an appointment at a DS. The DS though if your eligible (accepted) can apply their NET grant to your employment. A DS could still appoint/hire you from their general staffing fund its just not going to include the housing benefit and will probably be at a lower salary. Thats all NET really is. If you dont meet the requirements for the NET designation you arent going to be eligible for it.
Yes, you can apply for RT status without a HK ID, employment, or permanent residence. You will need to submit your Form 8 with all your documentation including your evaluation from the HKCAAVQ along with a copy of your Landing slip. To do this you must apply in person, which will necessitate your travel to HK to do so.
Yes, you can obtain a work permit by being offered employment/appointment with a HK IS/DS/ES. The same DSs that would hire you under the NET program can do so outside of NET.
Aside from obtaining your RT status (professional grade credential), which will require you to travel to HK to apply, the best thing you can do is go to HK. You will find MANY more opportunities available to you by being on site and able to interview in person. While those who have NET designation can usually arrange meaningful online interviews those outside of the IE circuit generally require in person interviews. You should understand that these will essentially be LH packages on the DSs compensation scale. We are coming up on the main DE recruiting time in HK which starts in May. Id plan for a month to get your RT credential in hand and provide you several weeks of interviewing and applying.
You should understand that NET is shrinking two fold. First, it is and always has been an expensive program to fund and the HK government sees this is an easy budget cut to make. Second, with the new grant scheme options there’s a lot of interest in Dis taking the staffing grant that will allow them to hire less expensive TAs/ATs an ETs allowing them more flexibility in their staffing. Its likely that the number of full NET DTs is going to shrink substantially.
::looking for @Sid::
Depends how long is a piece of string?
Whats cheap and fast to you? It also depends how risk adverse you are when defining "degrees in education with specialism in English", how much English needs to be a part of the program of study.
HK will accept English degrees at either undergrad or graduate degree level so the best value for you in coin would be a Masters. The main issue is going to be how risk adverse are you between a specific TESOL Masters which will very very likely meet the requirements (assuming acceptable accreditation) and a more or less generic Masters in Education. The generic Education masters have much lower costs and generally shorter time to completion, with more open start times.
UPe has an online M.Ed thats about USD$5K and would take about a year, they have rolling admission times so you could start this summer and possibly have your degree in hand for NETs application season next year. Buckingham has an online MA in Edu. thats also about £5K and takes a year, their admission is fixed for Autumn intake, but youd be finished at about the same time as UPe. Both of these degrees though are generic Edu. Masters without an in depth focus on TESOL. UPe would have two literacy courses you could take, this might be enough for the HK MOE. Buckingham doesnt have any.
On the TESOL side. In the UK, Derby has an online MA TESOL that at the accelerated rate would take two years, though you may be able to get some credit for your previous studies to reduce that. The cost is about £8K. In the US, ACE has an M.Ed TESOL that you might be able to get done in a year. The cost is about USD$9K. Both programs have rolling or semi rolling admission dates. You could maybe, get the ACE program done in time for NETs application season next year. Which might also be possible at Derby if you have significant prior learning you can transfer/apply (not likely unless you have a DELTA). Another option might be Horizon Uni. (FR). Its an online, year long, MA TESOL for about €4K, but the main concern is it would essentially be a unaccredited degree.
There are many other options for an English degree. Your next best approach would be looking at returning to your undergrad Uni and doing a second major in English Lit. since most US general Edu. programs require two years of English Lit. courses in the form of a year of composition and a year of literature (genres) thats 12 credits out of a 30-36 hour program. You could possibly complete a second major in a year assuming the right courses are available and you can start with the summer term.
Another option to consider would be doing an MFA in Creative Writing. This would meet the HK NET requirements and is typically considered a terminal degree which might get you doctoral level coin. It would also qualify you for tenure/permanent university level appointments, which might be an option if your goal is to reside in HK long term. Concordia University has an online, two year, MFA Creative Writing program thats about USD$19K. What singles this program out from the others is that you can focus in non-fiction (though there are substantial course requirements in various genres of fiction) you can do your workshops and thesis on non-fiction such as an English Learners curriculum, which would be some form of textbook that youd complete as part of the degree.
No, they wouldnt accept you without the relevant English degree. NET isnt like JET where "acceptance" means a job placement. NET is a funding category. You still have to find an appointment at a DS. The DS though if your eligible (accepted) can apply their NET grant to your employment. A DS could still appoint/hire you from their general staffing fund its just not going to include the housing benefit and will probably be at a lower salary. Thats all NET really is. If you dont meet the requirements for the NET designation you arent going to be eligible for it.
Yes, you can apply for RT status without a HK ID, employment, or permanent residence. You will need to submit your Form 8 with all your documentation including your evaluation from the HKCAAVQ along with a copy of your Landing slip. To do this you must apply in person, which will necessitate your travel to HK to do so.
Yes, you can obtain a work permit by being offered employment/appointment with a HK IS/DS/ES. The same DSs that would hire you under the NET program can do so outside of NET.
Aside from obtaining your RT status (professional grade credential), which will require you to travel to HK to apply, the best thing you can do is go to HK. You will find MANY more opportunities available to you by being on site and able to interview in person. While those who have NET designation can usually arrange meaningful online interviews those outside of the IE circuit generally require in person interviews. You should understand that these will essentially be LH packages on the DSs compensation scale. We are coming up on the main DE recruiting time in HK which starts in May. Id plan for a month to get your RT credential in hand and provide you several weeks of interviewing and applying.
You should understand that NET is shrinking two fold. First, it is and always has been an expensive program to fund and the HK government sees this is an easy budget cut to make. Second, with the new grant scheme options there’s a lot of interest in Dis taking the staffing grant that will allow them to hire less expensive TAs/ATs an ETs allowing them more flexibility in their staffing. Its likely that the number of full NET DTs is going to shrink substantially.
Re: HK RT question
I made a trip to the HK EDB office and they told me I need a visa to apply for RTS. Either a dependent visa or a work visa would be enough but it seems like I can't apply as a visitor with only the landing slip. Seems like this contradicts number 3 on the application form. I'll email their office just to make sure I'm not missing anything.