Thanks for all the information guys. If anything, this debate between you too has provided a lot of information on this topic for other people who come across the same issue.
@Thames Pirate
Do you know which state in Germany has the most simplified process to be recognized? And, is it even feasible to do any of this while outside of the country?
Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
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Alchemeister
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:17 am
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
Can I ask why you want to do this? Do you simply want to work in Germany as an international teacher? Target the international schools. Most are Ergänzungsschulen, where no such qualification is needed or are schools that basically takes care process (not just assisting you with documents, as PsyGuy implied, but submitting them for you and likely exempting you from submitting proof of German language). It sounds like the school that gave you the information is the latter, and they may be able to get a lot done, but even they are limited in what they can do depending on your degrees. But unless your goal is to work in a German public school, there is no real reason to go through this. If your goal is to work in a public school, my first question is why?
I can't tell you what state would be the easiest as it depends on a lot of factors, including your own qualifications. You mentioned American--do you have an M.Ed or other Masters? What subject and level? Other degrees? Work experience? Language ability (German) and proof thereof?You might also already need a work permit for some Bundesländer. Furthermore, there is a Wohnortsprinzip, the rule that the rules of the Land in which you live is the one you need to use. It's not a case of simply getting a teaching license in one state from afar, then getting a reciprocity recognition in the state you want, although this may work (not sure). I can tell you that Bavaria has no process and you're SOL barring some crazy bureaucratic gymnastics.
There is a portal you can use if you speak German, and they offer consultation as well as options for work if you aren't at a German school (they even list international schools as an option). https://www.anerkennung-in-deutschland. ... raefte.php
I can't tell you what state would be the easiest as it depends on a lot of factors, including your own qualifications. You mentioned American--do you have an M.Ed or other Masters? What subject and level? Other degrees? Work experience? Language ability (German) and proof thereof?You might also already need a work permit for some Bundesländer. Furthermore, there is a Wohnortsprinzip, the rule that the rules of the Land in which you live is the one you need to use. It's not a case of simply getting a teaching license in one state from afar, then getting a reciprocity recognition in the state you want, although this may work (not sure). I can tell you that Bavaria has no process and you're SOL barring some crazy bureaucratic gymnastics.
There is a portal you can use if you speak German, and they offer consultation as well as options for work if you aren't at a German school (they even list international schools as an option). https://www.anerkennung-in-deutschland. ... raefte.php
Reply
@Alchemeister
I get why you would want to undertake the process in advance if you dont have an EU passport, and need an appointment to sponsor a visa. While its possible to do so OS, its going to be a long term exercise in frustration and futility. An absent applicant who isnt there to push and doesnt have a right to work just isnt a priority, an will just get rejected as a matter of clearing the application. Youre also not likely to receive a different outcome, as written previously Germany as a whole tends to be rather rigid in regards to subject adjacent degrees.
There isnt a state MOE thats particularly easier than another, not one thats going to have a more flexible acceptance of a subject adjacent degree. Germany is a lot like CAN in this regard while the provinces (German states) are separate they all have a model that doesnt have much room for interpretation, you need one of X degrees to qualify and there just isnt room for meaningful interpretation. Even if you were to slip through a crack, mutual recognition isnt at the national but the regional level so your credential from Region A doesnt automatically get you recognition in any other region.
Just like the rest of IE, Germany has 1st, 2nd, 3rd tier ISs, the best route forward is finding a bottom third tier DS/IS that will sponsor a visa for you and have them walk your application through the process, which as I wrote earlier will handle the entire process but its mostly getting supporting documents accepted.
You should be aware youre going to need a substantial degree of German language proficiency for this route unless your position is in ESOL and you sell them on the immersion approach, even then a lot of work is going to be in German and its not a positive selling point if everyone has to switch to English to handle the one expat.
I get why you would want to undertake the process in advance if you dont have an EU passport, and need an appointment to sponsor a visa. While its possible to do so OS, its going to be a long term exercise in frustration and futility. An absent applicant who isnt there to push and doesnt have a right to work just isnt a priority, an will just get rejected as a matter of clearing the application. Youre also not likely to receive a different outcome, as written previously Germany as a whole tends to be rather rigid in regards to subject adjacent degrees.
There isnt a state MOE thats particularly easier than another, not one thats going to have a more flexible acceptance of a subject adjacent degree. Germany is a lot like CAN in this regard while the provinces (German states) are separate they all have a model that doesnt have much room for interpretation, you need one of X degrees to qualify and there just isnt room for meaningful interpretation. Even if you were to slip through a crack, mutual recognition isnt at the national but the regional level so your credential from Region A doesnt automatically get you recognition in any other region.
Just like the rest of IE, Germany has 1st, 2nd, 3rd tier ISs, the best route forward is finding a bottom third tier DS/IS that will sponsor a visa for you and have them walk your application through the process, which as I wrote earlier will handle the entire process but its mostly getting supporting documents accepted.
You should be aware youre going to need a substantial degree of German language proficiency for this route unless your position is in ESOL and you sell them on the immersion approach, even then a lot of work is going to be in German and its not a positive selling point if everyone has to switch to English to handle the one expat.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Reply
Once again, nonsense.
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Alchemeister
>
> I get why you would want to undertake the process in advance if you dont
> have an EU passport, and need an appointment to sponsor a visa. While its
> possible to do so OS, its going to be a long term exercise in frustration
> and futility. An absent applicant who isnt there to push and doesnt have a
> right to work just isnt a priority, an will just get rejected as a matter
> of clearing the application. Youre also not likely to receive a different
> outcome, as written previously Germany as a whole tends to be rather rigid
> in regards to subject adjacent degrees.
The online portal is designed for both before and after arrival and offers consultation. It's designed to help simplify and streamline the process, something that has been an increasing issue with all the refugees from Syria and Ukraine (and with globalisation in general). It's about killing two birds with one stone--getting people integrated and solving the labor shortages in fields like education.
You don't need a sponsored visa for Germany as an American. You can show up and, if in the first 90 days you find a job, you THEN get the visa. Furthermore, the visa and the Anerkennung are different offices, completely unrelated.
>
> There isnt a state MOE thats particularly easier than another, not one
> thats going to have a more flexible acceptance of a subject adjacent
> degree. Germany is a lot like CAN in this regard while the provinces
> (German states) are separate they all have a model that doesnt have much
> room for interpretation, you need one of X degrees to qualify and there
> just isn't room for meaningful interpretation. Even if you were to slip
> through a crack, mutual recognition isnt at the national but the regional
> level so your credential from Region A doesnt automatically get you
> recognition in any other region.
Actually, as I have repeatedly said, there are some that are virtually impossible (Bavaria) while others are simpler. They don't have a process at all for third states (non-European), so you have to go some weird and complex routes. But way to state a whole lot of nothing.
>
> Just like the rest of IE, Germany has 1st, 2nd, 3rd tier ISs, the best
> route forward is finding a bottom third tier DS/IS that will sponsor a visa
> for you and have them walk your application through the process, which as I
> wrote earlier will handle the entire process but its mostly getting
> supporting documents accepted.
> You should be aware youre going to need a substantial degree of German
> language proficiency for this route unless your position is in ESOL and you
> sell them on the immersion approach, even then a lot of work is going to be
> in German and its not a positive selling point if everyone has to switch to
> English to handle the one expat.
Again, utter rot and ignores the differentiation between Ersatz and Ergänzungsschule. That has little to do with tiers. Most of the ISs find they need the flexibility of being an Ergänzungsschule--especially in Bavaria, where credentialing is harder and, more importantly, the calendar would not work well for international teachers! Thus most truly international schools--the ones typically on the Search / ISS / circuit--are Ergänzungsschulen, meaning you do not need a German teaching credential. A small number are Ersatzschulen, and these are going to help you get your credential--but even they have limits on what they can do. Remember, they don't walk you through the process (the consultant at the portal can do that). They have a different process entirely. They may be able to exempt the German language bit, but not the subject degrees as these would be essentially the 1. Staatsexamen equivalent. And if you use the independent route, you have to provide language certificates, so there is no "selling them on the immersion approach"--after all, you are being credentialed in your subject for a German public school, where you would be required to attend staff meetings, communicate with parents, etc. It's a required document.
If you want to teach in an adult language course, you don't need a credential for that.
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Alchemeister
>
> I get why you would want to undertake the process in advance if you dont
> have an EU passport, and need an appointment to sponsor a visa. While its
> possible to do so OS, its going to be a long term exercise in frustration
> and futility. An absent applicant who isnt there to push and doesnt have a
> right to work just isnt a priority, an will just get rejected as a matter
> of clearing the application. Youre also not likely to receive a different
> outcome, as written previously Germany as a whole tends to be rather rigid
> in regards to subject adjacent degrees.
The online portal is designed for both before and after arrival and offers consultation. It's designed to help simplify and streamline the process, something that has been an increasing issue with all the refugees from Syria and Ukraine (and with globalisation in general). It's about killing two birds with one stone--getting people integrated and solving the labor shortages in fields like education.
You don't need a sponsored visa for Germany as an American. You can show up and, if in the first 90 days you find a job, you THEN get the visa. Furthermore, the visa and the Anerkennung are different offices, completely unrelated.
>
> There isnt a state MOE thats particularly easier than another, not one
> thats going to have a more flexible acceptance of a subject adjacent
> degree. Germany is a lot like CAN in this regard while the provinces
> (German states) are separate they all have a model that doesnt have much
> room for interpretation, you need one of X degrees to qualify and there
> just isn't room for meaningful interpretation. Even if you were to slip
> through a crack, mutual recognition isnt at the national but the regional
> level so your credential from Region A doesnt automatically get you
> recognition in any other region.
Actually, as I have repeatedly said, there are some that are virtually impossible (Bavaria) while others are simpler. They don't have a process at all for third states (non-European), so you have to go some weird and complex routes. But way to state a whole lot of nothing.
>
> Just like the rest of IE, Germany has 1st, 2nd, 3rd tier ISs, the best
> route forward is finding a bottom third tier DS/IS that will sponsor a visa
> for you and have them walk your application through the process, which as I
> wrote earlier will handle the entire process but its mostly getting
> supporting documents accepted.
> You should be aware youre going to need a substantial degree of German
> language proficiency for this route unless your position is in ESOL and you
> sell them on the immersion approach, even then a lot of work is going to be
> in German and its not a positive selling point if everyone has to switch to
> English to handle the one expat.
Again, utter rot and ignores the differentiation between Ersatz and Ergänzungsschule. That has little to do with tiers. Most of the ISs find they need the flexibility of being an Ergänzungsschule--especially in Bavaria, where credentialing is harder and, more importantly, the calendar would not work well for international teachers! Thus most truly international schools--the ones typically on the Search / ISS / circuit--are Ergänzungsschulen, meaning you do not need a German teaching credential. A small number are Ersatzschulen, and these are going to help you get your credential--but even they have limits on what they can do. Remember, they don't walk you through the process (the consultant at the portal can do that). They have a different process entirely. They may be able to exempt the German language bit, but not the subject degrees as these would be essentially the 1. Staatsexamen equivalent. And if you use the independent route, you have to provide language certificates, so there is no "selling them on the immersion approach"--after all, you are being credentialed in your subject for a German public school, where you would be required to attend staff meetings, communicate with parents, etc. It's a required document.
If you want to teach in an adult language course, you don't need a credential for that.
Discussion
Yes once again more TPF non-sense.
Yes, you do, what your describing is your classic @Thames Pirate TPF thinking that a tourist visa/landing permit is some how a work visa. Its not, and German ISs and DSs have labor regulations that make your "you just need a contract" non-sense.
They arent unrelated, you need both of them to live and work as a pro.edu. in Germany.
Different regions vary considerably. Bavaria might be some degree of impossible for you and less so for others. All of Germany in general is rather rigid in accepting subject adjacent degrees.
Utter bunk, again, more TPF. There isnt a meaningful difference. Either a DS/IS needs to follow regulations, it doesnt, or it chooses to.
Having an IS walk the application through the process is simpler and far more likely to be successful, regardless of being in Bavaria or another region. Everyone has limits. Water is also wet.
Again, Germany in general is rather rigid in what subject matter degrees they will accept and have very little flexability in subject adjacent degrees.
Yes, there is youd have to sell the IS/DS on the immersion angle to get them to offer you an appointment and move forward with the mutual recognition process.
You need one if the employer wants one.
Yes, you do, what your describing is your classic @Thames Pirate TPF thinking that a tourist visa/landing permit is some how a work visa. Its not, and German ISs and DSs have labor regulations that make your "you just need a contract" non-sense.
They arent unrelated, you need both of them to live and work as a pro.edu. in Germany.
Different regions vary considerably. Bavaria might be some degree of impossible for you and less so for others. All of Germany in general is rather rigid in accepting subject adjacent degrees.
Utter bunk, again, more TPF. There isnt a meaningful difference. Either a DS/IS needs to follow regulations, it doesnt, or it chooses to.
Having an IS walk the application through the process is simpler and far more likely to be successful, regardless of being in Bavaria or another region. Everyone has limits. Water is also wet.
Again, Germany in general is rather rigid in what subject matter degrees they will accept and have very little flexability in subject adjacent degrees.
Yes, there is youd have to sell the IS/DS on the immersion angle to get them to offer you an appointment and move forward with the mutual recognition process.
You need one if the employer wants one.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
Bla bla wrong.
I realise a tourist visa is not a work visa. But Americans can enter on a tourist visa and stay for up to 90 days. If they find a job during that time, they can get a work visa. Obviously finding the job is tricky, but it really is that simple (I mean, the paperwork is always a pain, and getting the appointment at the Amt for the visa can take you past your 90 days, but it can be that simple). Here it is laid out: https://www.welcome-hub-germany.com/blo ... or-germany
And no, they are not related. You don't need an Anerkennung to work in Germany; you need one to work in public schools or Ersatzschulen. An Anerkennung will also not help you get a visa--a job does that (for Americans, anyway). So you can work as a teacher in Germany without the Anerkennung and you can get a work visa without it. The two things are completely unrelated.
Again, Bavaria is super tricky for anyone not licensed in the EU, EEA (EWR), or Switzerland. A straight Anerkennung for anyone else--including the OP--is not possible. Workarounds are required, and these are really not worth it in most cases. But schools may have a process that serves as a workaround (Phorms Munich, for example, has a process with the KMK according to their website). This isn't walking an application through the normal channels. It doesn't involve things like your marriage certificate or language certificates, but it does involve submitting lesson plans and being observed--again, a TOTALLY DIFFERENT process. And again, Anerkennung is not solely about the subject degrees. If you have a BA in Psychology and an M.Ed., you can teach in the subjects for which Psychology qualifies you (depending on the Bundesland it could be any social studies courses or only psychology related courses), but not English--even if you have years of experience and a teaching license with an endorsement for English. So your Anerkennung could go through for certain subjects, but not for the ones to which you are applying. That's what it sounds like happened here.
If you haven't figured it out yet, there are two types of private schools in Germany. Ersatzschulen are essentially semi-private; they are strictly regulated by the state and have to follow all the same standards as the state schools and rules regarding access to education (they must offer scholarships, for example). In return, they are funded almost at the same rate as public schools. There are a very few international schools that fall into this category (by far the most well known is Phorms in Munich, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, and a few others). These schools can and even must offer German exams such as the MSA or Abi (depending on the school's level).
Ergänzungsschulen are fully private and must negotiate for any local or state funding. They generally have to be niche to receive approval. Approval is necessary because Germany has a Schulpflicht (mandatory school attendance--homeschooling is not allowed), and these niche schools must be approved for attendance to meet this legal requirement. But because they are niche and meeting a highly specific and often unusual need, they are freed from a lot of the regulation. These might include sports academies for high level student athletes, for example. International schools are obviously a niche market as well. Most international schools fall into this category. Being freed from regulation (obviously within certain parameters--child safeguarding standards, data protection, and other safety protocols still apply) means the school can decide whom it hires for what teaching roles and could, if so inclined, put someone without a teaching license into a teaching role. They can set their own calendars and curriculums and budgets and tuition fees. Most international schools in Germany are also accredited through organisations such as CIS, so they would be subject to those requirements, but not any state requirements. However, they cannot issue an Abitur or an MSA--only equivalents such as the IBDP.
So yeah, pretty significant difference in the two in almost all respects.
International schools pretty much never require host country language unless that is what you are teaching, so no, you don't need to sell anyone on immersion. ISs are pretty aware of how language acquisition works. And since most ISs don't require Anerkennung because they are Ergänzungsschulen, language is not required. If the school is an Ersatzschule and has its own process (like Phorms), then they can tell you if German is required. For an Anerkennung done independently (again, not really sure why you would bother), it is absolutely required.
And sure, you need a credential for a language school if the employer wants it, but the state doesn't require it. An employer can always require extraneous qualifications. They won't, though. If you have a teacher qualification in Germany, you can work at a public school for a LOT more money and a chance at Verbeamtung. No qualified teacher would work at a language school, so of course they won't require it. But sure, theoretically they could.
I realise a tourist visa is not a work visa. But Americans can enter on a tourist visa and stay for up to 90 days. If they find a job during that time, they can get a work visa. Obviously finding the job is tricky, but it really is that simple (I mean, the paperwork is always a pain, and getting the appointment at the Amt for the visa can take you past your 90 days, but it can be that simple). Here it is laid out: https://www.welcome-hub-germany.com/blo ... or-germany
And no, they are not related. You don't need an Anerkennung to work in Germany; you need one to work in public schools or Ersatzschulen. An Anerkennung will also not help you get a visa--a job does that (for Americans, anyway). So you can work as a teacher in Germany without the Anerkennung and you can get a work visa without it. The two things are completely unrelated.
Again, Bavaria is super tricky for anyone not licensed in the EU, EEA (EWR), or Switzerland. A straight Anerkennung for anyone else--including the OP--is not possible. Workarounds are required, and these are really not worth it in most cases. But schools may have a process that serves as a workaround (Phorms Munich, for example, has a process with the KMK according to their website). This isn't walking an application through the normal channels. It doesn't involve things like your marriage certificate or language certificates, but it does involve submitting lesson plans and being observed--again, a TOTALLY DIFFERENT process. And again, Anerkennung is not solely about the subject degrees. If you have a BA in Psychology and an M.Ed., you can teach in the subjects for which Psychology qualifies you (depending on the Bundesland it could be any social studies courses or only psychology related courses), but not English--even if you have years of experience and a teaching license with an endorsement for English. So your Anerkennung could go through for certain subjects, but not for the ones to which you are applying. That's what it sounds like happened here.
If you haven't figured it out yet, there are two types of private schools in Germany. Ersatzschulen are essentially semi-private; they are strictly regulated by the state and have to follow all the same standards as the state schools and rules regarding access to education (they must offer scholarships, for example). In return, they are funded almost at the same rate as public schools. There are a very few international schools that fall into this category (by far the most well known is Phorms in Munich, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, and a few others). These schools can and even must offer German exams such as the MSA or Abi (depending on the school's level).
Ergänzungsschulen are fully private and must negotiate for any local or state funding. They generally have to be niche to receive approval. Approval is necessary because Germany has a Schulpflicht (mandatory school attendance--homeschooling is not allowed), and these niche schools must be approved for attendance to meet this legal requirement. But because they are niche and meeting a highly specific and often unusual need, they are freed from a lot of the regulation. These might include sports academies for high level student athletes, for example. International schools are obviously a niche market as well. Most international schools fall into this category. Being freed from regulation (obviously within certain parameters--child safeguarding standards, data protection, and other safety protocols still apply) means the school can decide whom it hires for what teaching roles and could, if so inclined, put someone without a teaching license into a teaching role. They can set their own calendars and curriculums and budgets and tuition fees. Most international schools in Germany are also accredited through organisations such as CIS, so they would be subject to those requirements, but not any state requirements. However, they cannot issue an Abitur or an MSA--only equivalents such as the IBDP.
So yeah, pretty significant difference in the two in almost all respects.
International schools pretty much never require host country language unless that is what you are teaching, so no, you don't need to sell anyone on immersion. ISs are pretty aware of how language acquisition works. And since most ISs don't require Anerkennung because they are Ergänzungsschulen, language is not required. If the school is an Ersatzschule and has its own process (like Phorms), then they can tell you if German is required. For an Anerkennung done independently (again, not really sure why you would bother), it is absolutely required.
And sure, you need a credential for a language school if the employer wants it, but the state doesn't require it. An employer can always require extraneous qualifications. They won't, though. If you have a teacher qualification in Germany, you can work at a public school for a LOT more money and a chance at Verbeamtung. No qualified teacher would work at a language school, so of course they won't require it. But sure, theoretically they could.
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Alchemeister
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:17 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
@thames pirate @psyguy
I heard back from about the reasoning. Apparently the school said they weren’t able to get a visa for a teacher that didn’t do their first degree in the subject they’re going to teach, regardless if they had a license to teach it. Is this a thing? Like say someone had bachelors in Business and had a license to teach math, are they not able to get a visa in Germany because the bachelors isn’t specifically in Math?
I heard back from about the reasoning. Apparently the school said they weren’t able to get a visa for a teacher that didn’t do their first degree in the subject they’re going to teach, regardless if they had a license to teach it. Is this a thing? Like say someone had bachelors in Business and had a license to teach math, are they not able to get a visa in Germany because the bachelors isn’t specifically in Math?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
Well, sort of.
So the "getting the visa" part really means "employing you to teach X." They could give you a job cleaning floors and you'd get a visa. But if you had an EU passport and didn't need a visa, they still couldn't have you teach X. So telling you it's about the visa is a bit dishonest, but far simpler.
It IS true (for an Ersatzschule) that you need a degree in what you are teaching. See my post above (the example about Psychology and English)--if you are teaching maths, you need some sort of maths degree. What your teaching license says has absolutely zero bearing on what subjects you are allowed to teach. I know someone whose entire career was teaching one thing, and the ministry approved them only to teach a completely different subject they had never taught because of what their undergraduate degree was. As it turned out, the school had an opening in that for the coming school year, so they moved the person over. It was a huge learning curve and the teacher did struggle along for a few year or two before deciding to move on.
It sounds like the school is using "visa" in place of the more complex explanation. A bit misleading, but understandable that they wouldn't want to go into the explanation about the ministry and Ersatzschulen and all that if you aren't coming anyway. And of course it may always be an excuse, though if they bothered with getting and looking at your documents, it probably wasn't. My gut is that this is an Ersatzschule, they liked you, and your documents didn't match what the ministry said, and it was my suspicion from your first post (see all my previous posts all the way back).
If this is an Ergänzungsschule, they are lying to you 100% because they are the ones allowed to choose what qualifies you.
You can easily check which type of school this was by seeing what types of degrees they offer. If they offer Abi or MSA (also known by other names such as Mittlere Reife), they are an Ersatzschule (this doesn't preclude them from offering IB). If they offer ONLY the IB or AP or A Levels or other non-German qualification, they are an Ergänzungsschule.
So the "getting the visa" part really means "employing you to teach X." They could give you a job cleaning floors and you'd get a visa. But if you had an EU passport and didn't need a visa, they still couldn't have you teach X. So telling you it's about the visa is a bit dishonest, but far simpler.
It IS true (for an Ersatzschule) that you need a degree in what you are teaching. See my post above (the example about Psychology and English)--if you are teaching maths, you need some sort of maths degree. What your teaching license says has absolutely zero bearing on what subjects you are allowed to teach. I know someone whose entire career was teaching one thing, and the ministry approved them only to teach a completely different subject they had never taught because of what their undergraduate degree was. As it turned out, the school had an opening in that for the coming school year, so they moved the person over. It was a huge learning curve and the teacher did struggle along for a few year or two before deciding to move on.
It sounds like the school is using "visa" in place of the more complex explanation. A bit misleading, but understandable that they wouldn't want to go into the explanation about the ministry and Ersatzschulen and all that if you aren't coming anyway. And of course it may always be an excuse, though if they bothered with getting and looking at your documents, it probably wasn't. My gut is that this is an Ersatzschule, they liked you, and your documents didn't match what the ministry said, and it was my suspicion from your first post (see all my previous posts all the way back).
If this is an Ergänzungsschule, they are lying to you 100% because they are the ones allowed to choose what qualifies you.
You can easily check which type of school this was by seeing what types of degrees they offer. If they offer Abi or MSA (also known by other names such as Mittlere Reife), they are an Ersatzschule (this doesn't preclude them from offering IB). If they offer ONLY the IB or AP or A Levels or other non-German qualification, they are an Ergänzungsschule.
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Alchemeister
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:17 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
@thames pirate
So I don’t think they’re a publicly funded school. The only curriculum they have listed on their website is IB PYP and MYP. I could be missing something, but yeah just the information I’m getting from them is they need a BA in the subject I’d teach in addition to a license in order to get a visa for me. Do you have any idea what government agency I could reach out to confirm or deny that? I’m a little dismayed here about applying to other jobs in Germany.
So I don’t think they’re a publicly funded school. The only curriculum they have listed on their website is IB PYP and MYP. I could be missing something, but yeah just the information I’m getting from them is they need a BA in the subject I’d teach in addition to a license in order to get a visa for me. Do you have any idea what government agency I could reach out to confirm or deny that? I’m a little dismayed here about applying to other jobs in Germany.
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Thames Pirate
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- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
I can understand why you don't want to name the school, but I am not sure they are being honest if this is the case.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
I should add that PYP and MYP means the school only goes to 10th grade? And are you absolutely sure they don't offer German qualifications as well?
If it's a school like BIS or MIS in Munich, they are not being honest; those are Ergänzungsschulen and can hire anyone to teach anything (and they have). If it's a school like Phorms, you might have overlooked their MSA and Abi mentions; it is an Ersatzschule, in which case they are telling the truth.
I will say that according to the IBO website:
Every school in Germany that officially offers the PYP and the MYP also offers the DP (except Stuttgart, but you said Bavaria). All of the Bavarian ones listed are Ergänzungsschulen.
There are the SIS and Phorms schools that are Ersatzschulen.
I found one Ersatzschule in Bavaria offering the DP (and not the MYP or PYP) and one offering the PYP (it was only an elementary school, so no MYP or DP).
My guess is you missed something on the website.
If it's a school like BIS or MIS in Munich, they are not being honest; those are Ergänzungsschulen and can hire anyone to teach anything (and they have). If it's a school like Phorms, you might have overlooked their MSA and Abi mentions; it is an Ersatzschule, in which case they are telling the truth.
I will say that according to the IBO website:
Every school in Germany that officially offers the PYP and the MYP also offers the DP (except Stuttgart, but you said Bavaria). All of the Bavarian ones listed are Ergänzungsschulen.
There are the SIS and Phorms schools that are Ersatzschulen.
I found one Ersatzschule in Bavaria offering the DP (and not the MYP or PYP) and one offering the PYP (it was only an elementary school, so no MYP or DP).
My guess is you missed something on the website.
-
Alchemeister
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:17 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
@thames pirate
Sorry, they do offer a diploma program too. So goes until 12th. My mistake. Also, it’s not Phorms. Yes, in Bavaria.
My guess is they are missing something on their end. Or they’re being told wrong info by their visa department people.
Sorry, they do offer a diploma program too. So goes until 12th. My mistake. Also, it’s not Phorms. Yes, in Bavaria.
My guess is they are missing something on their end. Or they’re being told wrong info by their visa department people.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Yes more blah, blah and youre wrong.
More non-sense TPF. Its not that simple, putting words together is simple, going to the moon is simple, all you have to do is go through space.
Yes they are related. You need a visa if you dont have a right to residency, you have to live there to work there. Its a concept of proximity that I know your lack of vocabulary struggles with.
Bavaria is not super tricky any more than the rest of Germany is. @Thames Pirate may find Bavaria more difficult but thats just @Thames Pirate.
Yes, walking an application through the process is different than doing it yourself, happy to hear you agree with me, finally.
Yes there are two types of edus, ISs and DSs, ISs are independent/private, and DSs are maintained/public. In between there are trust ISs/DSs that are a hybrid of the two.
No, not different.
Yes you would need to sell the IS on immersion if you were teaching in an IS that delivered its curriculum in German but had an exception for ESOL and would be willing to appoint an IT who only spoke English. It would still be a hassle for the IS.
Applicants must meet the requirements of the position the IS/DS has established whether they are their own policies or mandated by rule or regulation.
No they are using visa correctly. They nee to get the LW a visa.
No, Organizations, do not get to set there own immigration policy. This is just more TPF non-sense.
It could be a Candidate IS/DS and not listed on the IB website yet.
@Alchemeister
Yes, its a thing.
If you dont have a right of residency you will need a visa and you must meet the visa department for the the applicable ministry (Labor, Immigration, etc.). This is separate process from what an MOE requires for a credential. This is how it works everywhere, Germany or otherwise.
As I wrote previously, Germany has rather rigid requirements what in comes to subject adjacent degrees. Germany goes by what is inscribed on the degree/qualification scroll. As I wrote previously, foreign credentials arent as valuable in Germany. Like most of the IE world outside of the US. Credentials generally fill the requirement of pro.edu training and competency, and tend to be generic rather than subject specific. In general, applicants need to meet the pro.edu requirement, which a credential does, regardless of its subject matter (though age range may be an issue) and then need to meet subject matter competence, which is often accomplished by possession of a specific qualification or range of qualifications. Germany has a very limited range of qualifications per subject area.
Credentials with specific subject areas generally dont meet the requirements in demonstrating single subject competence. So a credential in maths is no more qualifying to teach match than a credential in social studies, economics, or, physics is. An IT with a degree qualification in math and a credential in business is far more acceptable for a maths appointment were it the inverse (a maths appointment with a credential in maths, and a degree qualification in business).
Per your example, a business degree usually would not be accepted to meet the requirements of a a maths appointment. A degree inscribed in the subject of " Business -" for example may be acceptable. But if all the degree is inscribed with includes such subject titles as: "Business Administration", "General Business", "Business", or "Business.. Management/Marketing/Human Resources/Supply Chain Management, etc." than its not. Even highly maths adjacent fields such as "Economics" are likely to be denied (though its happened before).
This is just more TPF nonsense. Getting you the visa is the primary issue. The issue of credentials and what pathways are available for mutual recognition of credentials is not very relevant at this stage. If its an IS (independent/private) then they dont really have to contend with the mutual recognition process (though they may choose to), but they still have to get you a visa and meet the requirements for that ministry. If its a DS or a Trust IS and they do have to be successful in the mutual recognition process, than FIRST issue is still being able to get you a visa by meeting those requirements and then SECOND to that is investigating the mutual recognition pathways.
The German terms for IS/DS, etc, all vary by nation and region, Germany isnt any different. Youre going down the rabbit hole into @Thames Pirate wonderland of TPF non-sense. Of course you need to meet visa requirements, if you dont have a right to residency. They are more important than mutual recognition of credentials and are the priority everywhere. Germany is no different from China, India, France, Italy, UK, AUS, CAN, US, JP, SG, TW, HK, the NE or EE, etc. The primary issue is can the IS/DS get you a visa. Whether its a State Department, a Foreign Office, or Ministry of Immigration/Labor, the MOE doesnt make immigration/visa decisions, thats bunk. In TPF wonderland those OS ministries/offices/departments would all be subservient to organizations and business because in TPF wonderland "all you need is a contract". No national immigration/labor policy, regulations, statutes, rules, procedures, standards, oversight, even purview would matter because "all you need is a contract". Its bunk TPF non-sense. Organizations and businesses dont dictate immigration or labor policy.
While its very possible they could be lying to you, why would they? They arent going to be working with you, they dont have a need to save face, they could much more easily say "we are exploring other candidates" or "have moved forward with other candidates". Why pass on and pass it off as a visa issue, they owe you nothing?
In Germany the Ministry responsible would be the Federal Foreign Office, but they largely delegate the OS process to their embassies and consulates. So find out what embassy/consulate service the region you would be applying from and send them an email or call them and ask what would be required to secure a skilled workers visa as a grade/subject matter edu.
Options:
THE GOOD
Relocate to Germany now. Its not all you need is a contract, but by being local youd be applying directly to the local ministry office for your visa which may have a much easier time if an IS is walking your application through the process than through an OS embassy/consulate. In addition youre already there and a much more viable candidate. The big fear a leader/IS has with a new OS hire is they wont get on the plane.
As an alternative, an IS may be more amendable to getting your visa changed under an appointment you would be qualified for and just assigning you to maths.
THE BAD
You could add a credential in whatever your degree qualification is in and pursue appointments in that field.
THE UGLY
You could do a second major/degree in maths. Its July you could be done by this time 2025, with degree in hand if you went full time and only needed 30-36 hr. credits. You could potentially get CLEP credit for College Maths, Algebra, Pre-Calculus , and Calculus through testing alone, thats 12 hrs, spread the rest out over 2 semesters, maybe a summer semester and thats a very doable work load, assuming you know what youre doing and your courses are the skill-drill type where you just have to do proof sets and exams, of which the vast majority of UG/1stD online programs are. It wouldnt help you now but next year would be very doable.
SNHU has an online degree in maths, they also have their own assessment program (up to 12 credits), you transfer in your current Bachelors/1st degree (90 credits), pass all the credit exams leaving you with 18 credits (6 courses) would be just under USD$6K.
Yes more blah, blah and youre wrong.
More non-sense TPF. Its not that simple, putting words together is simple, going to the moon is simple, all you have to do is go through space.
Yes they are related. You need a visa if you dont have a right to residency, you have to live there to work there. Its a concept of proximity that I know your lack of vocabulary struggles with.
Bavaria is not super tricky any more than the rest of Germany is. @Thames Pirate may find Bavaria more difficult but thats just @Thames Pirate.
Yes, walking an application through the process is different than doing it yourself, happy to hear you agree with me, finally.
Yes there are two types of edus, ISs and DSs, ISs are independent/private, and DSs are maintained/public. In between there are trust ISs/DSs that are a hybrid of the two.
No, not different.
Yes you would need to sell the IS on immersion if you were teaching in an IS that delivered its curriculum in German but had an exception for ESOL and would be willing to appoint an IT who only spoke English. It would still be a hassle for the IS.
Applicants must meet the requirements of the position the IS/DS has established whether they are their own policies or mandated by rule or regulation.
No they are using visa correctly. They nee to get the LW a visa.
No, Organizations, do not get to set there own immigration policy. This is just more TPF non-sense.
It could be a Candidate IS/DS and not listed on the IB website yet.
@Alchemeister
Yes, its a thing.
If you dont have a right of residency you will need a visa and you must meet the visa department for the the applicable ministry (Labor, Immigration, etc.). This is separate process from what an MOE requires for a credential. This is how it works everywhere, Germany or otherwise.
As I wrote previously, Germany has rather rigid requirements what in comes to subject adjacent degrees. Germany goes by what is inscribed on the degree/qualification scroll. As I wrote previously, foreign credentials arent as valuable in Germany. Like most of the IE world outside of the US. Credentials generally fill the requirement of pro.edu training and competency, and tend to be generic rather than subject specific. In general, applicants need to meet the pro.edu requirement, which a credential does, regardless of its subject matter (though age range may be an issue) and then need to meet subject matter competence, which is often accomplished by possession of a specific qualification or range of qualifications. Germany has a very limited range of qualifications per subject area.
Credentials with specific subject areas generally dont meet the requirements in demonstrating single subject competence. So a credential in maths is no more qualifying to teach match than a credential in social studies, economics, or, physics is. An IT with a degree qualification in math and a credential in business is far more acceptable for a maths appointment were it the inverse (a maths appointment with a credential in maths, and a degree qualification in business).
Per your example, a business degree usually would not be accepted to meet the requirements of a a maths appointment. A degree inscribed in the subject of " Business -" for example may be acceptable. But if all the degree is inscribed with includes such subject titles as: "Business Administration", "General Business", "Business", or "Business.. Management/Marketing/Human Resources/Supply Chain Management, etc." than its not. Even highly maths adjacent fields such as "Economics" are likely to be denied (though its happened before).
This is just more TPF nonsense. Getting you the visa is the primary issue. The issue of credentials and what pathways are available for mutual recognition of credentials is not very relevant at this stage. If its an IS (independent/private) then they dont really have to contend with the mutual recognition process (though they may choose to), but they still have to get you a visa and meet the requirements for that ministry. If its a DS or a Trust IS and they do have to be successful in the mutual recognition process, than FIRST issue is still being able to get you a visa by meeting those requirements and then SECOND to that is investigating the mutual recognition pathways.
The German terms for IS/DS, etc, all vary by nation and region, Germany isnt any different. Youre going down the rabbit hole into @Thames Pirate wonderland of TPF non-sense. Of course you need to meet visa requirements, if you dont have a right to residency. They are more important than mutual recognition of credentials and are the priority everywhere. Germany is no different from China, India, France, Italy, UK, AUS, CAN, US, JP, SG, TW, HK, the NE or EE, etc. The primary issue is can the IS/DS get you a visa. Whether its a State Department, a Foreign Office, or Ministry of Immigration/Labor, the MOE doesnt make immigration/visa decisions, thats bunk. In TPF wonderland those OS ministries/offices/departments would all be subservient to organizations and business because in TPF wonderland "all you need is a contract". No national immigration/labor policy, regulations, statutes, rules, procedures, standards, oversight, even purview would matter because "all you need is a contract". Its bunk TPF non-sense. Organizations and businesses dont dictate immigration or labor policy.
While its very possible they could be lying to you, why would they? They arent going to be working with you, they dont have a need to save face, they could much more easily say "we are exploring other candidates" or "have moved forward with other candidates". Why pass on and pass it off as a visa issue, they owe you nothing?
In Germany the Ministry responsible would be the Federal Foreign Office, but they largely delegate the OS process to their embassies and consulates. So find out what embassy/consulate service the region you would be applying from and send them an email or call them and ask what would be required to secure a skilled workers visa as a grade/subject matter edu.
Options:
THE GOOD
Relocate to Germany now. Its not all you need is a contract, but by being local youd be applying directly to the local ministry office for your visa which may have a much easier time if an IS is walking your application through the process than through an OS embassy/consulate. In addition youre already there and a much more viable candidate. The big fear a leader/IS has with a new OS hire is they wont get on the plane.
As an alternative, an IS may be more amendable to getting your visa changed under an appointment you would be qualified for and just assigning you to maths.
THE BAD
You could add a credential in whatever your degree qualification is in and pursue appointments in that field.
THE UGLY
You could do a second major/degree in maths. Its July you could be done by this time 2025, with degree in hand if you went full time and only needed 30-36 hr. credits. You could potentially get CLEP credit for College Maths, Algebra, Pre-Calculus , and Calculus through testing alone, thats 12 hrs, spread the rest out over 2 semesters, maybe a summer semester and thats a very doable work load, assuming you know what youre doing and your courses are the skill-drill type where you just have to do proof sets and exams, of which the vast majority of UG/1stD online programs are. It wouldnt help you now but next year would be very doable.
SNHU has an online degree in maths, they also have their own assessment program (up to 12 credits), you transfer in your current Bachelors/1st degree (90 credits), pass all the credit exams leaving you with 18 credits (6 courses) would be just under USD$6K.
-
Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> Yes more blah, blah and youre wrong.
Ha, so original!
>
> More non-sense TPF. Its not that simple, putting words together is simple,
> going to the moon is simple, all you have to do is go through space.
>
> Yes they are related. You need a visa if you dont have a right to
> residency, you have to live there to work there. Its a concept of proximity
> that I know your lack of vocabulary struggles with.
Yes, you need a visa to work in Germany as an American. I never said otherwise. I said that as an American you could show up, then find a job and a place to rent (in either order), then go to the Amt and get the visa.
>
> Bavaria is not super tricky any more than the rest of Germany is. @Thames
> Pirate may find Bavaria more difficult but thats just @Thames Pirate.
No, Bavaria really is different. It's the outlier in pretty much all respects in Germany. But don't take my word for it; use the official documents or play around in the portal. Post your own evidence. But hey, you'd rather just claim I am wrong.
>
> Yes, walking an application through the process is different than doing it
> yourself, happy to hear you agree with me, finally.
Meh, beating a dead horse to try and explain that there are different processes--as in, different requirements--not just the school taking your application to the Amt for you. But if you are unable to comprehend that, that's okay. I don't need you to believe or understand that. You can keep claiming you know all about it and that I am right or wrong or agreeing with what you said or whatever. I know what I am talking about.
>
> Yes there are two types of edus, ISs and DSs, ISs are independent/private,
> and DSs are maintained/public. In between there are trust ISs/DSs that are
> a hybrid of the two.
>
No. International schools can be Ersatzschulen (Phorms) or Ergänzungsschulen (MIS, BIS). Ersatzschulen are not a hybrid; they are their own category. This "trust" nonsense is completely made up.
> No, not different.
Okay, sure--no difference at all between a school can hire anyone and one that must hire according to German ministry. No difference at all between a school can set its own graduation requirements and one that must administer German standardised exams. No difference at all between a school that can choose which units they teach or how many lessons of each subject a student takes and one where these things are prescribed. No difference at all between a school that get thousands of Euros per student in automatic funding and schools that must get that money from families or elsewhere.
> Yes you would need to sell the IS on immersion if you were teaching in an
> IS that delivered its curriculum in German but had an exception for ESOL
> and would be willing to appoint an IT who only spoke English. It would
> still be a hassle for the IS.
If it's an international school it has a concept of which classes are taught in which language. It isn't going to suddenly decide that kids who speak English because they have science in English should have maths in English because you convinced them of the merits of immersion. Either the school requires the teacher to speak German or it doesn't. And it has absolutely zero bearing on Anerkennung as you initially implied.
> Applicants must meet the requirements of the position the IS/DS has
> established whether they are their own policies or mandated by rule or
> regulation.
Sure, and that includes language. The difference is that an Ergänzungsschule can relax its own hiring requirements because they set them themselves.
>
> No they are using visa correctly. They nee to get the LW a visa.
If the school gives the OP a contract, they can get them a visa. However, an Ersatzschule won't give a contract to a teacher who will not be approved because then they could get stuck paying someone who can't actually teach the classes. An Ergänzungsschule can hire anyone they want from the US (and other specific countries) and get them a visa.
>
> No, Organizations, do not get to set there own immigration policy. This is
> just more TPF non-sense.
It isn't that they are setting policy. It's that the policy is pretty chill regarding Americans.
>
> It could be a Candidate IS/DS and not listed on the IB website yet.
>
That's true, but then it should still have the Abi or MSA listed as this is a requirement from the get go for an Ersatzschule.
>
> @Alchemeister
>
> Yes, its a thing.
>
> If you dont have a right of residency you will need a visa and you must
> meet the visa department for the the applicable ministry (Labor,
> Immigration, etc.). This is separate process from what an MOE requires for
> a credential. This is how it works everywhere, Germany or otherwise.
>
True, but as I said, if it is an Ergänzungsschule, they can simply give you a contract, which gets you the visa--in which case they are less than honest. If they are an Ersatzschule, then they can't have you teach, so they won't give you a contract--regardless of your visa status. If you were married to a German and had a permanent visa, they still wouldn't hire you if you can't get Anerkennung.
> As I wrote previously, Germany has rather rigid requirements what in comes
> to subject adjacent degrees. Germany goes by what is inscribed on the
> degree/qualification scroll. As I wrote previously, foreign credentials
> arent as valuable in Germany. Like most of the IE world outside of the US.
> Credentials generally fill the requirement of pro.edu training and
> competency, and tend to be generic rather than subject specific. In
> general, applicants need to meet the pro.edu requirement, which a
> credential does, regardless of its subject matter (though age range may be
> an issue) and then need to meet subject matter competence, which is often
> accomplished by possession of a specific qualification or range of
> qualifications. Germany has a very limited range of qualifications per
> subject area.
> Credentials with specific subject areas generally dont meet the
> requirements in demonstrating single subject competence. So a credential in
> maths is no more qualifying to teach match than a credential in social
> studies, economics, or, physics is. An IT with a degree qualification in
> math and a credential in business is far more acceptable for a maths
> appointment were it the inverse (a maths appointment with a credential in
> maths, and a degree qualification in business).
>
> Per your example, a business degree usually would not be accepted to meet
> the requirements of a a maths appointment. A degree inscribed in the
> subject of " Business -" for example may be acceptable. But if
> all the degree is inscribed with includes such subject titles as:
> "Business Administration", "General Business",
> "Business", or "Business.. Management/Marketing/Human
> Resources/Supply Chain Management, etc." than its not. Even highly
> maths adjacent fields such as "Economics" are likely to be denied
> (though its happened before).
A long winded way of saying what I have twice said already. ;)
> This is just more TPF nonsense. Getting you the visa is the primary issue.
> The issue of credentials and what pathways are available for mutual
> recognition of credentials is not very relevant at this stage. If its an IS
> (independent/private) then they dont really have to contend with the mutual
> recognition process (though they may choose to), but they still have to get
> you a visa and meet the requirements for that ministry. If its a DS or a
> Trust IS and they do have to be successful in the mutual recognition
> process, than FIRST issue is still being able to get you a visa by meeting
> those requirements and then SECOND to that is investigating the mutual
> recognition pathways.
See my explanations above.
>
> The German terms for IS/DS, etc, all vary by nation and region, Germany
> isnt any different. Youre going down the rabbit hole into @Thames Pirate
> wonderland of TPF non-sense. Of course you need to meet visa requirements,
> if you dont have a right to residency. They are more important than mutual
> recognition of credentials and are the priority everywhere. Germany is no
> different from China, India, France, Italy, UK, AUS, CAN, US, JP, SG, TW,
> HK, the NE or EE, etc. The primary issue is can the IS/DS get you a visa.
> Whether its a State Department, a Foreign Office, or Ministry of
> Immigration/Labor, the MOE doesnt make immigration/visa decisions, thats
> bunk. In TPF wonderland those OS ministries/offices/departments would all
> be subservient to organizations and business because in TPF wonderland
> "all you need is a contract". No national immigration/labor
> policy, regulations, statutes, rules, procedures, standards, oversight,
> even purview would matter because "all you need is a contract".
> Its bunk TPF non-sense. Organizations and businesses dont dictate
> immigration or labor policy.
The visa requirement is to have a job (again, for the OP, who is American). From the Auswärtiges Amt: "Sie können als Fachkraft einen Aufenthaltstitel zur Beschäftigung erhalten, wenn Sie bereits ein konkretes Arbeitsplatzangebot erhalten haben." You can obtain a residence permit for work if you have a firm job offer.
>
> While its very possible they could be lying to you, why would they? They
> arent going to be working with you, they dont have a need to save face,
> they could much more easily say "we are exploring other
> candidates" or "have moved forward with other candidates".
> Why pass on and pass it off as a visa issue, they owe you nothing?
Schools do this all the time, and in any other thread you would be the first to say that it is code for "we don't want you." But I said it, so you have to disagree.
I don't know if they are directly lying; there could be other factors at work (Ergänzungsschulen can hire anyone for any given position, but their approval might have contingencies such as certain percentage EU hires, certain numbers of staff must meet certain requirements). But they could hire you to clean floors and you'd get a visa. So they aren't being 100% straightforward, but they may be giving you the simple answer (again, Ergänzungsschulen could have weird percentages and Ersatzschulen would require Anerkennung).
>
> In Germany the Ministry responsible would be the Federal Foreign Office,
> but they largely delegate the OS process to their embassies and consulates.
> So find out what embassy/consulate service the region you would be applying
> from and send them an email or call them and ask what would be required to
> secure a skilled workers visa as a grade/subject matter edu.
Not for Americans! You can apply for the visa upon arrival (again, the challenge since Covid has been the processing times that might take you past the 90 days). But if you call to ask about a visa, they will refer you to the Anerkennung process of the relevant Bundesland, but as an individual.
>
> Options:
>
> THE GOOD
>
> Relocate to Germany now. Its not all you need is a contract, but by being
> local youd be applying directly to the local ministry office for your visa
> which may have a much easier time if an IS is walking your application
> through the process than through an OS embassy/consulate. In addition youre
> already there and a much more viable candidate. The big fear a leader/IS
> has with a new OS hire is they wont get on the plane.
> As an alternative, an IS may be more amendable to getting your visa changed
> under an appointment you would be qualified for and just assigning you to
> maths.
You can get a job cleaning floors while going through the Anerkennung, for which you would need German and the right subject degrees (sounds like you don't have that). No school is going to walk you through this process. You are on your own.
You can also offer to teach the subject for which your degree qualifies you if you feel comfortable doing that. You might need a subject endorsement added to your US license, but that should be the smaller hurdle. Of course, that is assuming the school has an opening for that subject and wants someone with no experience teaching it. But if they will take you for your degree subject, great! Then it won't matter if it's an Ersatz- or Ergänzungsschule.
>
> THE BAD
>
> You could add a credential in whatever your degree qualification is in and
> pursue appointments in that field.
See above.
>
> THE UGLY
>
> You could do a second major/degree in maths. Its July you could be done by
> this time 2025, with degree in hand if you went full time and only needed
> 30-36 hr. credits. You could potentially get CLEP credit for College Maths,
> Algebra, Pre-Calculus , and Calculus through testing alone, thats 12 hrs,
> spread the rest out over 2 semesters, maybe a summer semester and thats a
> very doable work load, assuming you know what youre doing and your courses
> are the skill-drill type where you just have to do proof sets and exams, of
> which the vast majority of UG/1stD online programs are. It wouldnt help you
> now but next year would be very doable.
> SNHU has an online degree in maths, they also have their own assessment
> program (up to 12 credits), you transfer in your current Bachelors/1st
> degree (90 credits), pass all the credit exams leaving you with 18 credits
> (6 courses) would be just under USD$6K.
Also an option.
> Yes more blah, blah and youre wrong.
Ha, so original!
>
> More non-sense TPF. Its not that simple, putting words together is simple,
> going to the moon is simple, all you have to do is go through space.
>
> Yes they are related. You need a visa if you dont have a right to
> residency, you have to live there to work there. Its a concept of proximity
> that I know your lack of vocabulary struggles with.
Yes, you need a visa to work in Germany as an American. I never said otherwise. I said that as an American you could show up, then find a job and a place to rent (in either order), then go to the Amt and get the visa.
>
> Bavaria is not super tricky any more than the rest of Germany is. @Thames
> Pirate may find Bavaria more difficult but thats just @Thames Pirate.
No, Bavaria really is different. It's the outlier in pretty much all respects in Germany. But don't take my word for it; use the official documents or play around in the portal. Post your own evidence. But hey, you'd rather just claim I am wrong.
>
> Yes, walking an application through the process is different than doing it
> yourself, happy to hear you agree with me, finally.
Meh, beating a dead horse to try and explain that there are different processes--as in, different requirements--not just the school taking your application to the Amt for you. But if you are unable to comprehend that, that's okay. I don't need you to believe or understand that. You can keep claiming you know all about it and that I am right or wrong or agreeing with what you said or whatever. I know what I am talking about.
>
> Yes there are two types of edus, ISs and DSs, ISs are independent/private,
> and DSs are maintained/public. In between there are trust ISs/DSs that are
> a hybrid of the two.
>
No. International schools can be Ersatzschulen (Phorms) or Ergänzungsschulen (MIS, BIS). Ersatzschulen are not a hybrid; they are their own category. This "trust" nonsense is completely made up.
> No, not different.
Okay, sure--no difference at all between a school can hire anyone and one that must hire according to German ministry. No difference at all between a school can set its own graduation requirements and one that must administer German standardised exams. No difference at all between a school that can choose which units they teach or how many lessons of each subject a student takes and one where these things are prescribed. No difference at all between a school that get thousands of Euros per student in automatic funding and schools that must get that money from families or elsewhere.
> Yes you would need to sell the IS on immersion if you were teaching in an
> IS that delivered its curriculum in German but had an exception for ESOL
> and would be willing to appoint an IT who only spoke English. It would
> still be a hassle for the IS.
If it's an international school it has a concept of which classes are taught in which language. It isn't going to suddenly decide that kids who speak English because they have science in English should have maths in English because you convinced them of the merits of immersion. Either the school requires the teacher to speak German or it doesn't. And it has absolutely zero bearing on Anerkennung as you initially implied.
> Applicants must meet the requirements of the position the IS/DS has
> established whether they are their own policies or mandated by rule or
> regulation.
Sure, and that includes language. The difference is that an Ergänzungsschule can relax its own hiring requirements because they set them themselves.
>
> No they are using visa correctly. They nee to get the LW a visa.
If the school gives the OP a contract, they can get them a visa. However, an Ersatzschule won't give a contract to a teacher who will not be approved because then they could get stuck paying someone who can't actually teach the classes. An Ergänzungsschule can hire anyone they want from the US (and other specific countries) and get them a visa.
>
> No, Organizations, do not get to set there own immigration policy. This is
> just more TPF non-sense.
It isn't that they are setting policy. It's that the policy is pretty chill regarding Americans.
>
> It could be a Candidate IS/DS and not listed on the IB website yet.
>
That's true, but then it should still have the Abi or MSA listed as this is a requirement from the get go for an Ersatzschule.
>
> @Alchemeister
>
> Yes, its a thing.
>
> If you dont have a right of residency you will need a visa and you must
> meet the visa department for the the applicable ministry (Labor,
> Immigration, etc.). This is separate process from what an MOE requires for
> a credential. This is how it works everywhere, Germany or otherwise.
>
True, but as I said, if it is an Ergänzungsschule, they can simply give you a contract, which gets you the visa--in which case they are less than honest. If they are an Ersatzschule, then they can't have you teach, so they won't give you a contract--regardless of your visa status. If you were married to a German and had a permanent visa, they still wouldn't hire you if you can't get Anerkennung.
> As I wrote previously, Germany has rather rigid requirements what in comes
> to subject adjacent degrees. Germany goes by what is inscribed on the
> degree/qualification scroll. As I wrote previously, foreign credentials
> arent as valuable in Germany. Like most of the IE world outside of the US.
> Credentials generally fill the requirement of pro.edu training and
> competency, and tend to be generic rather than subject specific. In
> general, applicants need to meet the pro.edu requirement, which a
> credential does, regardless of its subject matter (though age range may be
> an issue) and then need to meet subject matter competence, which is often
> accomplished by possession of a specific qualification or range of
> qualifications. Germany has a very limited range of qualifications per
> subject area.
> Credentials with specific subject areas generally dont meet the
> requirements in demonstrating single subject competence. So a credential in
> maths is no more qualifying to teach match than a credential in social
> studies, economics, or, physics is. An IT with a degree qualification in
> math and a credential in business is far more acceptable for a maths
> appointment were it the inverse (a maths appointment with a credential in
> maths, and a degree qualification in business).
>
> Per your example, a business degree usually would not be accepted to meet
> the requirements of a a maths appointment. A degree inscribed in the
> subject of " Business -" for example may be acceptable. But if
> all the degree is inscribed with includes such subject titles as:
> "Business Administration", "General Business",
> "Business", or "Business.. Management/Marketing/Human
> Resources/Supply Chain Management, etc." than its not. Even highly
> maths adjacent fields such as "Economics" are likely to be denied
> (though its happened before).
A long winded way of saying what I have twice said already. ;)
> This is just more TPF nonsense. Getting you the visa is the primary issue.
> The issue of credentials and what pathways are available for mutual
> recognition of credentials is not very relevant at this stage. If its an IS
> (independent/private) then they dont really have to contend with the mutual
> recognition process (though they may choose to), but they still have to get
> you a visa and meet the requirements for that ministry. If its a DS or a
> Trust IS and they do have to be successful in the mutual recognition
> process, than FIRST issue is still being able to get you a visa by meeting
> those requirements and then SECOND to that is investigating the mutual
> recognition pathways.
See my explanations above.
>
> The German terms for IS/DS, etc, all vary by nation and region, Germany
> isnt any different. Youre going down the rabbit hole into @Thames Pirate
> wonderland of TPF non-sense. Of course you need to meet visa requirements,
> if you dont have a right to residency. They are more important than mutual
> recognition of credentials and are the priority everywhere. Germany is no
> different from China, India, France, Italy, UK, AUS, CAN, US, JP, SG, TW,
> HK, the NE or EE, etc. The primary issue is can the IS/DS get you a visa.
> Whether its a State Department, a Foreign Office, or Ministry of
> Immigration/Labor, the MOE doesnt make immigration/visa decisions, thats
> bunk. In TPF wonderland those OS ministries/offices/departments would all
> be subservient to organizations and business because in TPF wonderland
> "all you need is a contract". No national immigration/labor
> policy, regulations, statutes, rules, procedures, standards, oversight,
> even purview would matter because "all you need is a contract".
> Its bunk TPF non-sense. Organizations and businesses dont dictate
> immigration or labor policy.
The visa requirement is to have a job (again, for the OP, who is American). From the Auswärtiges Amt: "Sie können als Fachkraft einen Aufenthaltstitel zur Beschäftigung erhalten, wenn Sie bereits ein konkretes Arbeitsplatzangebot erhalten haben." You can obtain a residence permit for work if you have a firm job offer.
>
> While its very possible they could be lying to you, why would they? They
> arent going to be working with you, they dont have a need to save face,
> they could much more easily say "we are exploring other
> candidates" or "have moved forward with other candidates".
> Why pass on and pass it off as a visa issue, they owe you nothing?
Schools do this all the time, and in any other thread you would be the first to say that it is code for "we don't want you." But I said it, so you have to disagree.
I don't know if they are directly lying; there could be other factors at work (Ergänzungsschulen can hire anyone for any given position, but their approval might have contingencies such as certain percentage EU hires, certain numbers of staff must meet certain requirements). But they could hire you to clean floors and you'd get a visa. So they aren't being 100% straightforward, but they may be giving you the simple answer (again, Ergänzungsschulen could have weird percentages and Ersatzschulen would require Anerkennung).
>
> In Germany the Ministry responsible would be the Federal Foreign Office,
> but they largely delegate the OS process to their embassies and consulates.
> So find out what embassy/consulate service the region you would be applying
> from and send them an email or call them and ask what would be required to
> secure a skilled workers visa as a grade/subject matter edu.
Not for Americans! You can apply for the visa upon arrival (again, the challenge since Covid has been the processing times that might take you past the 90 days). But if you call to ask about a visa, they will refer you to the Anerkennung process of the relevant Bundesland, but as an individual.
>
> Options:
>
> THE GOOD
>
> Relocate to Germany now. Its not all you need is a contract, but by being
> local youd be applying directly to the local ministry office for your visa
> which may have a much easier time if an IS is walking your application
> through the process than through an OS embassy/consulate. In addition youre
> already there and a much more viable candidate. The big fear a leader/IS
> has with a new OS hire is they wont get on the plane.
> As an alternative, an IS may be more amendable to getting your visa changed
> under an appointment you would be qualified for and just assigning you to
> maths.
You can get a job cleaning floors while going through the Anerkennung, for which you would need German and the right subject degrees (sounds like you don't have that). No school is going to walk you through this process. You are on your own.
You can also offer to teach the subject for which your degree qualifies you if you feel comfortable doing that. You might need a subject endorsement added to your US license, but that should be the smaller hurdle. Of course, that is assuming the school has an opening for that subject and wants someone with no experience teaching it. But if they will take you for your degree subject, great! Then it won't matter if it's an Ersatz- or Ergänzungsschule.
>
> THE BAD
>
> You could add a credential in whatever your degree qualification is in and
> pursue appointments in that field.
See above.
>
> THE UGLY
>
> You could do a second major/degree in maths. Its July you could be done by
> this time 2025, with degree in hand if you went full time and only needed
> 30-36 hr. credits. You could potentially get CLEP credit for College Maths,
> Algebra, Pre-Calculus , and Calculus through testing alone, thats 12 hrs,
> spread the rest out over 2 semesters, maybe a summer semester and thats a
> very doable work load, assuming you know what youre doing and your courses
> are the skill-drill type where you just have to do proof sets and exams, of
> which the vast majority of UG/1stD online programs are. It wouldnt help you
> now but next year would be very doable.
> SNHU has an online degree in maths, they also have their own assessment
> program (up to 12 credits), you transfer in your current Bachelors/1st
> degree (90 credits), pass all the credit exams leaving you with 18 credits
> (6 courses) would be just under USD$6K.
Also an option.
-
Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.
Alchemeister wrote:
> @thames pirate
>
> Sorry, they do offer a diploma program too. So goes until 12th. My mistake.
> Also, it’s not Phorms. Yes, in Bavaria.
>
> My guess is they are missing something on their end. Or they’re being told
> wrong info by their visa department people.
Then it is an Ergänzungsschule. There may be super detailed requirements for their overall approval (certain percentage of staff meets X requirement) or they might not have appointments available (because the process can take awhile, schools often make a number of appointments well in advance, but they might not have any left) or they are being dishonest. This wouldn't be their first rodeo, so they are not being told wrong info by visa people; they will know whom they can hire.
> @thames pirate
>
> Sorry, they do offer a diploma program too. So goes until 12th. My mistake.
> Also, it’s not Phorms. Yes, in Bavaria.
>
> My guess is they are missing something on their end. Or they’re being told
> wrong info by their visa department people.
Then it is an Ergänzungsschule. There may be super detailed requirements for their overall approval (certain percentage of staff meets X requirement) or they might not have appointments available (because the process can take awhile, schools often make a number of appointments well in advance, but they might not have any left) or they are being dishonest. This wouldn't be their first rodeo, so they are not being told wrong info by visa people; they will know whom they can hire.