Qualifications recognition to teach in Germany.

[Alchemeister]

Does the German ministry of education have to recognize my qualifications in order for me to teach at an international school in Germany, or is it simply up to the individual school whether or not they think my qualifications match the position?

[Thames Pirate]

If the school is a private school, no. If it is a semi-public, then yes, but the school should assist with that.

[Alchemeister]

A school I applied to told me my degrees and licenses didn’t qualify me to teach a specific subject in Germany. Even though my bachelors is not in the subject, it’s in a related subject and I have a U.S. teaching license with an endorsement for the subject I was applying to teach. I had an interview with them and they seemed to like me, they said they’d check my degrees and follow up with a second interview. I got that response back which made it seem like it was out of their hands, like an outside agency made the decision. Asked for more details, but no response.

[PsyGuy]

If its a truly 100% independent/private IS than no they dont. If its a trust IS (where the IS receives a portion of public/government funding) than yes it does. That being said most ISs at Gymnasium level (SLL) in Germany want ITs who would be fully qualified by MOE standards. Assuming the issue is as presented by the IS (and its not something else), the outside organization/agency likely could have provided guidance as opposed to a ruling or determination and the IS is simply adopting that guidance as their position.

Germany has a rather rigid position on subject adjacent degrees, and foreign credentials arent as valuable, simply that credentialing requirements in the US (in general) arent as high as they are in Germany.

[Thames Pirate]

Ugh, once again PsyGuy is going off on random tangents and doesn't actually know much about the subject.

In Germany, there are different types of schools, and these get different levels of funding and have to follow different rules.

Most international schools are what is called Ergänzungsschule, meaning they offer something different from the regular schools and get less funding (but, contrary to PsyGuy's assertion, they DO get funding). A few are what is called Ersatzschule, meaning they have to follow the state curriculum (in general terms) and calendar. However, they get a lot more federal funding--on par with a public school. A school can even be mixed--an Ersatzschule for certain grades and an Ergänzungsschule for others (often for the IBDP). And if it is a Gymnasium, it is not an international school, but a local school and would thus fall under those rules. There is no such thing as an "IS at a Gymnasium level" as such--any IS offering a diploma, whether IB or otherwise, is essentially at "Gymnasium level." What a German university accepts may depend on the school and the courses, just as with any foreign high school diploma, including the IB DP.

If the school is the Ergänzungsschule--and the major international schools all are--then it is up to the school what qualifications they will require. If it is an Ersatzschule, the school is beholden to the Bundesland. Germany has a federal system, so an Ersatzschule will have different requirements based on its location. One would likely need to have a credential recognised; however, the difficulty of this process AND the level of support from the school can vary. Some schools require you to do all the paperwork yourself, and the states vary wildly on how easy it is to get a foreign credential recognised (varying from "fill out this form" to "German bureaucracy is where you go to die" depending also on your country of origin, degrees, etc). Other schools have a process run through the school, and you may have someone from a ministry come and observe your lessons and look over your lesson plans. A hassle, but not a huge one. But the ministry may be tough on which degrees you need before they will do said visit.

If a school told you that your degrees didn't qualify you, they are likely an Ersatzschule and having to abide by ministry standards. I have known people who taught the IBDP in one subject, but were not permitted to teach it at the lower levels because of the ministry restrictions and such. It DEFINITELY depends on the Bundesland. That's probably what happened in your case. But given the quality of the Ersatzschulen I have known, you probably dodged a bullet.

If you really want to teach there, move to Germany, get your credential recognised yourself (might be more accessible than the school's process primarily due to the teacher shortages in Germany), and then apply. You can do that through the KMK in Germany.

[PsyGuy]

More TPF from @Thames Pirate.

Everywhere there a different types of edu institutions. Germany is not an exception.

As I stated, contrary to @Thames Pirate " trust IS (where the IS receives a portion of public/government funding". A Trust IS/DS covers a number of variations of ISs that receive various levels of public/government funding, the salient point is that they arent 100% Independent/Private. As such they have to follow varying degrees of regulation, some of which pertains to credentialing of faculty. Even in the Trust ISs/DSs that have autonomy in edu selection may still refer to a regulating authority for guidance, and some of them have to less flexibility than others.

Again as stated "Gymnasium LEVEL (SLL)", [emphasis added] and further clarified as SLL (School Leaving Level), not a Gymnasium, but equivalent level.
While Unis do vary on what they accept in terms of admission standards, German Unis accept German SLL certificates (Abitur, etc.) to a far greater extent than they do anything else, including the I.B.

While there are varying requirements on acceptance of foreign credentials, there is a model from the MOE (BMBF) but its up to each State (Bundesländer) to adopt it for this particular issue, but most of them do with only marginal variation.

While its possible someones application could be walked through the process such that filling out an application is the bulk of the recognition process its in general more work than that, requiring authentic copies of various documents (though again, its possible a clerk will sight an original).

Having an observation before recognition of a credential is more than a hassle. Youre being hired from OS so you have to have the job before you can be observed, and then if it doesnt go the way of pixie dust and unicorn farts and your denied, then your contract is nullified, and youre just out of a job.

While there is some subjective variation between applicants in general Germany tends to be more rigid on subject adjacent degrees.

I disagree with @Thames Pirate on the quality of various German DSs, while they differ in experience and quality the worst of them are still by far better than the worst DSs youll find in the US.

If Germany is really your goal, move to Germany, and find a DS/IS that wants you, either they can formulate their own criteria or they will walk your recognition application through the system.

[Alchemeister]

@thamespirate

I thought that I couldn’t get my qualifications recognized if they are from a country outside Europe. At least that’s what I understood from this website https://verwaltung.bund.de/leistungsver ... /region/09.

My degrees and license are from America.

Thames Pirate wrote:
> Ugh, once again PsyGuy is going off on random tangents and doesn't actually
> know much about the subject.
>
> In Germany, there are different types of schools, and these get different
> levels of funding and have to follow different rules.
>
> Most international schools are what is called Ergänzungsschule, meaning
> they offer something different from the regular schools and get less
> funding (but, contrary to PsyGuy's assertion, they DO get funding). A few
> are what is called Ersatzschule, meaning they have to follow the state
> curriculum (in general terms) and calendar. However, they get a lot more
> federal funding--on par with a public school. A school can even be
> mixed--an Ersatzschule for certain grades and an Ergänzungsschule for
> others (often for the IBDP). And if it is a Gymnasium, it is not an
> international school, but a local school and would thus fall under those
> rules. There is no such thing as an "IS at a Gymnasium level" as
> such--any IS offering a diploma, whether IB or otherwise, is essentially at
> "Gymnasium level." What a German university accepts may depend
> on the school and the courses, just as with any foreign high school
> diploma, including the IB DP.
>
> If the school is the Ergänzungsschule--and the major international schools
> all are--then it is up to the school what qualifications they will require.
> If it is an Ersatzschule, the school is beholden to the Bundesland.
> Germany has a federal system, so an Ersatzschule will have different
> requirements based on its location. One would likely need to have a
> credential recognised; however, the difficulty of this process AND the
> level of support from the school can vary. Some schools require you to do
> all the paperwork yourself, and the states vary wildly on how easy it is to
> get a foreign credential recognised (varying from "fill out this
> form" to "German bureaucracy is where you go to die"
> depending also on your country of origin, degrees, etc). Other schools
> have a process run through the school, and you may have someone from a
> ministry come and observe your lessons and look over your lesson plans. A
> hassle, but not a huge one. But the ministry may be tough on which degrees
> you need before they will do said visit.
>
> If a school told you that your degrees didn't qualify you, they are likely
> an Ersatzschule and having to abide by ministry standards. I have known
> people who taught the IBDP in one subject, but were not permitted to teach
> it at the lower levels because of the ministry restrictions and such. It
> DEFINITELY depends on the Bundesland. That's probably what happened in
> your case. But given the quality of the Ersatzschulen I have known, you
> probably dodged a bullet.
>
> If you really want to teach there, move to Germany, get your credential
> recognised yourself (might be more accessible than the school's process
> primarily due to the teacher shortages in Germany), and then apply. You
> can do that through the KMK in Germany.

[Thames Pirate]

No, you absolutely can--but Bavaria is notoriously stupid about this. Is the school in Bavaria?

You may be better off getting one of the easier to get states, then transferring, but even that is problematic for Bavaria; they have a serious complex about a lot of things, and their mindset is that even other German states' qualifications aren't good enough. I have seen that happen to Germans. So I would say if the school offers no support, you can try, but IME German bureaucracy is going to take a year or more, involve myriad visits to some office where you get a different answer every time, sometimes even dependent on the mood of the person processing your request (I wish this were hyperbole, but it isn't), and generally waste a lot of time, energy, and even money getting the right stamp. I knew a guy whose university's records burned down two years after he graduated in the 1980s--nothing digital existed--and the university sent all sorts of stuff saying he was a qualified teacher and that no original transcripts existed--and the German paper pushers didn't care. I also know someone who needed documents submitted per fax only--as if the sending organisation still had a fax machine.

I would honestly say it isn't worth the effort if the school isn't going to support you and you have other options.

On the other hand, if the school IS going to support you, they should have you submit your documents and THEY present them to the ministry and deal with that. If you have institutional support, you can often bypass the little old lady in the Amt and even some of the requirements (I knew people who didn't speak German who got qualifications recognised). If they don't support you in this, you are probably better off avoiding the school.

Or you can dive in and experience what Kafka wrote about firsthand. If this is an opportunity to be near family or other opportunities and you don't want to miss it, then go for it. Just note that having everything in triplicate with apostilles, notarised copies, and originals--every document you can ever imagine, even if it has nothing to do with teaching--will help. We took everything we could think of to a bank in the US to get notarised copies of everything. Show up with a binder sized stack of loose papers and various envelopes and offer to find each document. When they need X, say you have a document in there that explains why you don't need it or that your notarised copy is in here somewhere and start thumbing. This method has been somewhat effective for us to get them to say "never mind." Crazy, but it sometimes works.

[Thames Pirate]

Also, once again PsyGuy is going to talk in circles to cover the fact that someone knows more than he does.

[PsyGuy]

More @Thames Pirate trying to hide their lack of reading comprehension thinking they know more than they do.

[Thames Pirate]

PsyGuy wrote:

> As I stated, contrary to @Thames Pirate " trust IS (where the IS
> receives a portion of public/government funding". A Trust IS/DS covers
> a number of variations of ISs that receive various levels of
> public/government funding, the salient point is that they arent 100%
> Independent/Private. As such they have to follow varying degrees of
> regulation, some of which pertains to credentialing of faculty. Even in the
> Trust ISs/DSs that have autonomy in edu selection may still refer to a
> regulating authority for guidance, and some of them have to less
> flexibility than others.

Utter rot. The term "Trust IS / DS" is something he made up or found on an obscure website.

The correct differentiation is between Ersatzschule, which gets a set amount federal funding per student (I think it's 2/3 or 3/4 of what a public school gets per student--at any rate it's in the ballpark of what public schools get) and is subject to all the regulations of a public school, and Ergänzungsschule, which can get state but not federal funding (the funding is often dependent on negotiation with state or local governments). They are free from the full ministry regulations, though they must still be approved and fulfil a specific target that justifies their existence. So an IS still needs approval to operate, but as they are meeting a niche need, they have great flexibility in how they do so. Ergänzungsschulen can also be subcategorised, with international schools having their own special category. They cannot internally offer Abitur or MSA (German 10th grade leaving certificate) exams or certifications.

The flexibility a school has is determined solely by category--Ersatzschulen have very little flexibility and are in pretty much all ways beholden to the state re: curriculum, calendar, teacher certification, and pretty much anything else. It's all or nothing--either you have a recognised credential or you don't and can't teach. And you MUST follow the ministry guidelines in terms of curriculum. Ergänzungsschulen have minimal regulations (for example, staff still need police checks and first aid, but they need not be licensed teachers to teach a class and the number of hours per subject or other curricular considerations are not regulated). Any connection to the local curriculum or calendar or any other requirements are purely at the discretion of the school. They either have the flexibility (Ergänzungsschule) or they don't (Ersatzschule).


>
> Again as stated "Gymnasium LEVEL (SLL)", [emphasis added] and
> further clarified as SLL (School Leaving Level), not a Gymnasium, but
> equivalent level.
> While Unis do vary on what they accept in terms of admission standards,
> German Unis accept German SLL certificates (Abitur, etc.) to a far greater
> extent than they do anything else, including the I.B.


Yeah, again, not quite right. Yes, they accept the Abitur more easily than the IB, but the same is not true for just any school leaving level. In fact, other than the Abi, the IB is perhaps more widely accepted than most diplomas or certificates, including most German ones. But I believe I said as much when I said, "What a German university accepts may depend on the school and the courses, just as with any foreign high school diploma, including the IB DP." **You just messed it up when you rephrased what I said and turned it into something that was no longer true.**

>
> While there are varying requirements on acceptance of foreign credentials,
> there is a model from the MOE (BMBF) but its up to each State
> (Bundesländer) to adopt it for this particular issue, but most of them do
> with only marginal variation.


Again, what the heck are you talking about? There is no "acceptance" of foreign credentials. There is Anerkennung, or formal recognition of equivalency. This is the process that can be done independently by any individual, whether currently teaching or not, or it can be supported by the school (which basically means they help file the paperwork). An Ersatzschule must have teachers either with a German teaching qualification or a formally recognised foreign equivalent. There is no varying requirement. It's a requirement. An Ergänzungsschule has no such requirement and can hire Joe Schmo to teach their classes if they feel it meets the need.

And again, in a federal system every state obviously has its Anerkennung, but anyone who has ever dealt with German bureaucracy would know that the real variation lies not in the Bundesländer, but in the person in charge of answering your question on that day and often on the time of day you ask. But hey, if your point was that Bundesländer have their own Anerkennung, **way to restate what I already said and call me wrong while you do it. Classic.**


> While its possible someones application could be walked through the process
> such that filling out an application is the bulk of the recognition process
> its in general more work than that, requiring authentic copies of various
> documents (though again, its possible a clerk will sight an original).


Nice, **take my anecdotes, miss the salient point, and add a quip make it seem like you are somehow full of insights and thus more knowledgable than I am on this issue.** Anyone who has ever dealt with an Amt of any kind in Germany knows that while today your person is Dirk who accepts only originals, tomorrow it's Margarete, who only accepts notarised copies. And heaven forbid you are in Gertrud's line right before end of shift--she might require notarised copies from you and originals from the guy behind you (yes, this has happened to me--I usually carry both now so Gertrud has to help me rather than telling me to come back another day, and I definitely try to avoid coming right before the end of shift). But my actual point was that certain states require language certificates, while others might only require a signature, and while some recognise a Bachelor's degree plus a teaching license, others might require a Masters or even an MEd instead of a subject Masters. It depends on location in that regard. Both location of the original credential and location within Germany.

> Having an observation before recognition of a credential is more than a
> hassle. Youre being hired from OS so you have to have the job before you
> can be observed, and then if it doesnt go the way of pixie dust and unicorn
> farts and your denied, then your contract is nullified, and youre just out
> of a job.

That isn't true either! You might be required to attend supplemental courses and undergo additional training, as happened to someone I know. They then had to go through a hellacious process of submitting unit and lesson plans, frequent observations, attending evening courses, and resubmitting. Essentially they were on probation. But for the most part it isn't pixie dust and unicorn farts, either. They are looking for a very specific checklist of items, and if you follow the very specific formula on the day of the observation, you are fine. My acquaintance had nobody to blame but themselves for failing to do what was laid out in black and white. Furthermore, there is a generous timeframe before those visits--often a year or more before they are even scheduled.

>
> While there is some subjective variation between applicants in general
> Germany tends to be more rigid on subject adjacent degrees.
>

Again, no. There is a concrete listing of what degrees qualify you to teach what subjects if you are working in an Ersatzschule. I haven't read the one for each Bundesland, so they may vary, but the concrete listing does exist. Germany may be rigid and be so to a fault, it is not subjective in this and there is no variation between applicants. But **well done taking the things I said, varying them a little, selling the idea as your own, and telling me I am wrong, even if your changes are what actually make the statement now untrue.**

> I disagree with @Thames Pirate on the quality of various German DSs, while
> they differ in experience and quality the worst of them are still by far
> better than the worst DSs youll find in the US.

Um, what? I didn't say anything about the quality of German domestic schools. I said that the Ersatzschulen I have known are probably places one doesn't want to work, especially as an international teacher. An Ersatzschule is not a regular domestic (public) school, and the fact that you didn't realise the difference just shows again how little you understand the system.

>
> If Germany is really your goal, move to Germany, and find a DS/IS that
> wants you, either they can formulate their own criteria or they will walk
> your recognition application through the system.

Also not true. If it is an Ergänzungsschule, your credential recognition by the German government is irrelevant. Since in this case the OP's degree was relevant, we can assume the school in question was an Ersatzschule. Of those, they may or may not assist with the Anerkennung. That is entirely dependent on the school.

But in terms of the gist--move to Germany and get it sorted upon arrival--is what I said. Again, **the PsyGuy plagiarism rebrand with just enough of a rewrite to make what was correct incorrect strikes.**

Crikey, dude. Accept that some of us know more in certain areas than you do.

[PsyGuy]

@Alchemeister

You really cant. German bureaucracy just doesnt care to put in the effort for an applicant who isnt there, and doesnt have a pressing need to have their credentials recognized. Thats why you either need to go there and let the paper pushers see youre there or have an IS supporting you. An IS walking the application process for you really does make a tremendous difference. Its not like the UK where theres an office with staff who that are dedicated to processing foreign applications for QTS. Theres nothing like that process in anywhere in Germany. Trying to do it by distance without the support of an IS/DS is going to be an exercise in futility. Its hitting your head against a wall, its the wall hitting your head until you give up or die.

@Thames Pirate

No its not.

Its not a a salient distinction for this issue, while the differences may be more substantial for other issues, in regards to the recognition of credentials it isnt. The degree of funding is relevant, either the IS/DS must comply with regulations to the suitability of faculty, it doesnt, or chooses to align their own policies with those of the regulations, the degree of public funding doesnt really matter, and anyone trying to hammer the idea that it does doesnt know what they are talking about, which includes @Thames Pirate.

Yes it is right. My claim is that German issued qualifications from their secondary (SLL) programs (which include Arbitur) more widely accepted in German Unis than international qualifications such as those offered by the IB, or Dfe, or AP, etc.

No the I.B. is not more widely accepted after the Arbitur. The IB is not the holy grail despite what its cult thinks.
Further, I didnt mess anything up, your lack of comprehension is not my communication error.

Yes there is. Formal recognition is acceptance. Different words can have equivalent meanings.
Having an independent process any individual can apply to doesnt mean that attempt will be successful. Having an IS support the application really does make all the difference.
Pairing "German teaching qualification" doesnt strengthen your position of with "formal recognition" which varies between states, of what is acceptable to meet formal recognition.

You cant even keep your own argument straight which is it "There is no varying requirement" or it varies by "the person in charge of answering your question" does it vary or not, because both of those cant be true. Save your pleas we already know it varies, and the people in the office answering questions and processing applications are the Bundesländer, theyre the one doing the work, making the decisions not some bot or some divine entity.

More like classic @ThamesPirate taking the entirety of my accurate response and thinking adding more words makes yours right and mine wrong. Classic TPF.

You had no anecdotes you copied my response and added more filler.
I am more knowledgeable than you are, data matters not your feelings about the data.

So once again the process varies from location to location because the Dirk might be in one Bundesländer and the Gertrude in another, which is just more of you proving my point that it varies. Whereas someone at the IS might know Collette in their Bundesländer who hand waves the process to nothing more than a form. Thats called variance.

Yes it is true. You may have to take supplemental courses which is just denial with homework. They havent issued the credential if there are still deficiencies.

How is "submitting unit and lesson plans, frequent observations, attending evening courses, and resubmitting" not a hassle? You dont seem to appreciate or know what the meaning of what a hassle is. Meanwhile the entirety of that process you dont have a German credential.

How is a concrete listing of degrees not rigid? You dont seem to know what words mean. So your lack of reading comprehension is further hampered by a lack of vocabulary.

Is "regular" referenced as having an operational definition different from its common meaning. Ersatzschulen are German DSs (as all Trust DSs/ISs are) which is no different than a US Charter DSs or UK Academy DS or any other DS.

Yes very true. The issue is about recognition of foreign credentials not that there exists a level of IS that doesnt require credentials at all.
Yes we both agree on moving to Germany but your pathway was to deal with the bureaucracy independently and mine is to find an IS/DS that will manage the process for the LW.

The entirety of your post is nothing more than restating my position and adding your own unique brand of fluff and filler.

Id be happy yielding to a superior expert, youre just not one of them.

[Thames Pirate]

This entire post is hilarious--taking my what you learned from what I said, painting a mental picture, and passing it off as your own to claim expertise. A few examples:


PsyGuy wrote:
> @Alchemeister
>
> You really cant. German bureaucracy just doesnt care to put in the effort
> for an applicant who isnt there, and doesnt have a pressing need to have
> their credentials recognized. Thats why you either need to go there and let
> the paper pushers see youre there or have an IS supporting you.

They don't care about having a school supporting you or even seeing you in person. Your level of motivation means zilch. It's "do you have form 137b and supporting documents 62a and one of three from lists 42, 17, and 84 (each)?"

An IS
> walking the application process for you really does make a tremendous
> difference.

The IS doesn't walk your application through--they might submit the paperwork for you, but it's a different process. You no longer need to fill out the forms, you might be exempt from certain requirements--in short, it's a different process run by a different office.

Its not like the UK where theres an office with staff who that
> are dedicated to processing foreign applications for QTS. Theres nothing
> like that process in anywhere in Germany.

Actually, that's exactly that process. The difference is in the attitude, not the process.

Trying to do it by distance
> without the support of an IS/DS is going to be an exercise in futility. Its
> hitting your head against a wall, its the wall hitting your head until you
> give up or die.

Even using a variation of my snarky interpretation! Fantastic!


>
> Its not a a salient distinction for this issue, while the differences may
> be more substantial for other issues, in regards to the recognition of
> credentials it isnt. The degree of funding is relevant, either the IS/DS
> must comply with regulations to the suitability of faculty, it doesnt,

Yeah, that's what I said in response to your "varying degrees of compliance" claim. It's a two category system--one must be fully compliant and one has very little regulation beyond what is needed for recognition--basically, a solid concept that is niche and child safeguarding issues. Way to restate my claim!

or
> chooses to align their own policies with those of the regulations, the
> degree of public funding doesnt really matter, and anyone trying to hammer
> the idea that it does doesnt know what they are talking about, which
> includes @Thames Pirate.

The degree of funding makes a huge difference to a school because it has to either make up its budget through fees or other revenue sources. It's one of the reasons ISs are so expensive and an Ersatzschule becomes an option for families--their business model involves undercutting the prices of the IS and their fees are far lower. But their pay is generally far lower, and the workload includes learning all the ministry requirements and ensuring compliance with a heavily restricted curriculum. There are myriad other ways the regulation requirements can impact teachers, families, and students that may or may not be related to funding. Meanwhile, the Ergänzungsschulen are not choosing to align their policies with any regulations except your typical CIS / NEASC / IBO requirements. Why would they care what German schools are doing any more than an IS in Bangladesh cares what Bangladeshi schools are doing? They don't. But attempting to dismiss where I pointed out your error is great.

>
> Yes it is right. My claim is that German issued qualifications from their
> secondary (SLL) programs (which include Arbitur) more widely accepted in
> German Unis than international qualifications such as those offered by the
> IB, or Dfe, or AP, etc.

No. The IB is far more easily accepted than the MSA for a German university since a German university typically requires more than a German MSA for admission. The German ESA certificate will not get you into a German university at all. The IB will. The German certificate that gets you into a German uni is the Abi first and foremost. Then the IB. Then foreign qualifications such as AP / A Levels / diplomas issued by another country. In fact, there have been changes to what German unis recognise regarding the IB within recent years as more and more applicants have the IB. But Mr. Expert, please tell us which subject(s) specifically were the drivers of that change.

>
> No the I.B. is not more widely accepted after the Arbitur. The IB is not
> the holy grail despite what its cult thinks.
> Further, I didnt mess anything up, your lack of comprehension is not my
> communication error.

I specifically said the Abi is more accepted at German unis than the IB. Again, taking my words and either saying I didn't say them and thus am wrong or twisting them and saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong. It makes you a plagiarist with an ego problem.

>
> Yes there is. Formal recognition is acceptance. Different words can have
> equivalent meanings.
> Having an independent process any individual can apply to doesnt mean that
> attempt will be successful. Having an IS support the application really
> does make all the difference.

Again, I was the first to explain that you might have an easier time if the school is assisting with the Anerkennung. This is because the school supported process is different; you still need a stupid number of documents, but you need far fewer of the extraneous ones. The independent process, however, does not require an observation.


> Pairing "German teaching qualification" doesnt strengthen your
> position of with "formal recognition" which varies between
> states, of what is acceptable to meet formal recognition.
>

Ah, your misunderstanding is showing. You see, the office responsible for your Anerkennung is different in each state, and they set the requirements. So your requirements might be different in Bavaria and Hamburg because in the former you might need notarised copies of form 44c while in the latter you need three clean photocopies of form 44d. Once you obtain that, however, you have the equivalent of that state's teaching license. Like in the US, where a FL teaching license might not be accepted without additional requirements in MA, a teaching credential--even a locally obtained one--from one Bundesland may not be accepted in another. (BTW, your earlier post translated state as Bundesländer, but that is the plural--the singular is Bundesland.) So your Anerkennung would work the same way--valid only in that Bundesland and those where the credential is transferable. And my statement was that an Ersatzschule needs either a German teaching qualification or a formally recognised foreign equivalent--in other words, if you aren't a local hire, you need to have gone through the formal Anerkennung process (essentially giving you a qualification for that Bundesland). You need a local teaching qualification from the Bundesland in which the school is located. The Anerkennung gives you that.

> You cant even keep your own argument straight which is it "There is no
> varying requirement" or it varies by "the person in charge of
> answering your question" does it vary or not, because both of those
> cant be true. Save your pleas we already know it varies, and the people in
> the office answering questions and processing applications are the
> Bundesländer, theyre the one doing the work, making the decisions not some
> bot or some divine entity.

Again, you misunderstand. See above.

>
> More like classic @ThamesPirate taking the entirety of my accurate response
> and thinking adding more words makes yours right and mine wrong. Classic
> TPF.

Ha, can't even bother to come up with an original argument--plagiarising even that and giving it the cute moniker TPF (a longstanding one on this forum because I like to call out PG's nonsense).


>
> You had no anecdotes you copied my response and added more filler.
> I am more knowledgeable than you are, data matters not your feelings about
> the data.


I literally have posted anecdotes about experiences at various offices. The stories anyone at a German IS could tell about their own or colleagues' experiences at various Amts are countless, each more ridiculous than the last.

>
> So once again the process varies from location to location because the Dirk
> might be in one Bundesländer and the Gertrude in another, which is just
> more of you proving my point that it varies. Whereas someone at the IS
> might know Collette in their Bundesländer who hand waves the process to
> nothing more than a form. Thats called variance.

Again, Bundesländer is plural. Bundesland is singular. Gertrud in German would not have an e at the end because in German, the e would be pronounced. And the variation I described is not based on location. I have literally been in the same Amt with my partner getting the same document transferred, but because Dirk was in charge of mine and Gertrud was in charge of his, we had different requirements, none of which were apparent on formal lists. The formal lists vary by Bundesland. The enforcement and persnickety adherence to the right stamp vs. the spirit of the list varies based on the person in charge.


>
> Yes it is true. You may have to take supplemental courses which is just
> denial with homework. They havent issued the credential if there are still
> deficiencies.

Oh, now what I say is true, rephrased, and somehow you have conveniently forgotten that you claimed you would be out of a job with no notice. An action plan means you may not have your credential, but there is a way to get it without your losing your job. And you conveniently forgot your claim about pixie dust. Suddenly you are just claiming you meant what I said all along. Love it.

>
> How is "submitting unit and lesson plans, frequent observations,
> attending evening courses, and resubmitting" not a hassle? You dont
> seem to appreciate or know what the meaning of what a hassle is. Meanwhile
> the entirety of that process you dont have a German credential.

Of course it's a hassle, but it isn't the same thing as being left with no job with no notice. And given my firsthand experience with German bureaucracy, I know a hassle very well.

>
> How is a concrete listing of degrees not rigid? You dont seem to know what
> words mean. So your lack of reading comprehension is further hampered by a
> lack of vocabulary.

Again, you conveniently left out that I said it was rigid, but that your mistake was the claim that there was "some subjective variation between applicants." There isn't--not when it comes to this. This isn't you at an Amt hoping to get Gertrud and not Dirk; there are no forms involved. It's a straight yes or no based on the rigid list.

>
> Is "regular" referenced as having an operational definition
> different from its common meaning. Ersatzschulen are German DSs (as all
> Trust DSs/ISs are) which is no different than a US Charter DSs or UK
> Academy DS or any other DS.

Ersatzschulen are as much domestic schools as Ergänzungsschulen are. And again, the term "Trust DS / IS" is made up. And again, I didn't speak to the quality of German domestic schools. But hey, if you want to call an Ersatzschule a domestic school, go right ahead. And my comment re: quality was obviously a reference to work environment. There are plenty of studies out there comparing the quality of German, American, and other countries' public schools, so if you want to argue about that, go start there and find someone who will argue that with you. Ersatzschulen would not be included in those studies.

>
> Yes very true. The issue is about recognition of foreign credentials not
> that there exists a level of IS that doesnt require credentials at all.
> Yes we both agree on moving to Germany but your pathway was to deal with
> the bureaucracy independently and mine is to find an IS/DS that will manage
> the process for the LW.

My advice was to get the credential recognised independently because the school was refusing to do so--and the teacher shortages in Germany have made many Bundesländer a bit less hung up on form 38a and more interested in getting good people into the schools. But hey, take credit for the options I provided if you must.

>
> The entirety of your post is nothing more than restating my position and
> adding your own unique brand of fluff and filler.

Again, you can't even bother coming up with original accusations!


>
> Id be happy yielding to a superior expert, youre just not one of them.

Okay Mr. I-don't-know-the-difference-between-singular-and-plural. It really gets to you when someone knows more than you do, and it especially grates when it's me. It's quite funny that simply answering an innocuous question from a third . with a bit more knowledge than you have can grind your gears so dramatically. You must have a very small sense of self worth.

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

It is hilarious, your constant TPF double and back talk is profoundly comical.

Yes they do care, because yes it matters. Submitting the application responding to inquiries by the IS is exactly what walking the application through means.

The "attitude" is the process.

Happy to hear you agree.

No the degree of funding doesnt matter, not for this issue. Its not a a salient distinction for this issue, while the differences may be more substantial for other issues, in regards to the recognition of credentials it isnt. The degree of funding is relevant, either the IS/DS must comply with regulations to the suitability of faculty, it doesnt, or chooses to align their own policies with those of the regulations, the degree of public funding doesnt really matter, and anyone trying to hammer the idea that it does doesnt know what they are talking about, which includes @Thames Pirate.

No its not. The MSA isnt really a SLL certificate its comparable to an IGCSE or GCSE (year 10 completion), so of course its not better than the I.B. because they arent equivalent certificates, the same would be true for the IBs MYP certificate because again not really SLL, or for that matter a PYP completion certificate or any other completion certificate because they arent SLL certificates.

No your the plagiarist. I specifically stated the Abitur was far more accepted than the I.B. in reference to Gymnasium and Gymnasium level in which I addressed Abitur, which was the first time it was used in the topic.

I was the first to describe the difficulty with the German bureaucracy "Germany has a rather rigid position on subject adjacent degrees, and foreign credentials arent as valuable, simply that credentialing requirements in the US (in general) arent as high as they are in Germany." your prior post consisted only of "If the school is a private school, no. If it is a semi-public, then yes, but the school should assist with that."

I understand it just fine, you seem to misunderstand what the various meaning of words are.

Your the consistent contributor of non-sense which I constantly have to address and correct.

Happy to hear you agree with me on the rigidity of the German edu bureaucracy.

Yeah because you might not get an action plan or deficiency plan, you might just be declined and your IS may nullify the contract as your not credentialed, which as an anecdote I have seen happen.

No its your back peddling again where your agreeing with me since all you did was plagiarize my positions. Apparently you think singular and plural terms somehow makes a difference.

Because there is subjective variation between applicants. In the process, the outcomes and the policy because interpretation matters.

The use of the term Trust IS/DS is not made up.

My advice is to identify an IS that will support the LW and get the mutual recognition process walked through by them as doing it OS independently will be an absolute exercise in futility, even relocating to Germany and doing it independently will be an exercise in futility just one with a more personal touch. You need an IS and a job to get the German edu bureaucracy to take an applicant seriously.
This is no different than your historical "you just need a contract" approach to an EU IT placement.

The entirety of your post is nothing more than restating my position and adding your own unique brand of fluff and filler. Yes I can, but why say the same thing differently when it was right to begin with.

Yes as compared to the @Thames Pirate version of both a lack of reading comprehension AND vocabulary.

Were it only true if you know more about anything.

[Thames Pirate]

PsyGuy wrote:

> It is hilarious, your constant TPF double and back talk is profoundly
> comical.

Does this sort of gaslighting really work?


>
> Yes they do care, because yes it matters. Submitting the application
> responding to inquiries by the IS is exactly what walking the application
> through means.

Uh, no. Again, different processes. If done through a school, you already have a job, and it is done through submission of documents (diploma, teaching certificate)--no crazy notarlized copies or specific stamps, no application form, but instead with observations, which you don't have with an individual application.

>
> The "attitude" is the process.

Bahahahaha! The attitude is the process? No. There is an official process for getting your Anerkennung. More than one--as I said, different process for individuals and for schools.

>
> Happy to hear you agree.

I made the comment first, so glad to hear you agree with my snarky quip about German bureaucracy.


>
> No the degree of funding doesnt matter, not for this issue. Its not a a
> salient distinction for this issue, while the differences may be more
> substantial for other issues, in regards to the recognition of credentials
> it isnt. The degree of funding is relevant, either the IS/DS must comply
> with regulations to the suitability of faculty, it doesnt, or chooses to
> align their own policies with those of the regulations, the degree of
> public funding doesnt really matter, and anyone trying to hammer the idea
> that it does doesnt know what they are talking about, which includes
> @Thames Pirate.

I mean, is the funding relevant to the OP getting a job? No. Is it relevant to working conditions? Probably. Where it matters is that in order to get these funds, the school has to follow the rules, so there is no flexibility on whom they can hire. You keep saying that schools sometimes choose to follow the regulations, but that is complete nonsense. The Ergänzungsschulen have ZERO reason to follow the German ministry regulations, and if they are doing so, they may as well get the money. So no, they do not. Now, are German ministry regulations somehow wildly different from your average accrediting body's regulations? Not really. So do you see Ergänzungsschulen behaving in ways schools around the world do? Of course. But no, they don't give two figs about the regulations--by the way, do you know what any of those curriculum elements or regulations would even be? Show me your best google skills!


>
> No its not. The MSA isnt really a SLL certificate its comparable to an
> IGCSE or GCSE (year 10 completion), so of course its not better than the
> I.B. because they arent equivalent certificates, the same would be true for
> the IBs MYP certificate because again not really SLL, or for that matter a
> PYP completion certificate or any other completion certificate because they
> arent SLL certificates.

Ah, the MSA and ESA may not be year 12 qualifications, but they ARE school leaving certificates because a great many students DO leave with these certificates. But you said that the German qualifications are considered better than IB. This is not true--it is only true for the Abi.

>
> No your the plagiarist. I specifically stated the Abitur was far more
> accepted than the I.B. in reference to Gymnasium and Gymnasium level in
> which I addressed Abitur, which was the first time it was used in the
> topic.

You stated that "[your] claim is that German issued qualifications from their secondary (SLL) programs (which include Arbitur) more widely accepted in German Unis than international qualifications such as those offered by the IB." But three of the four of German qualifications--ESA, MSA, and Fachabi--are less accepted than the IB. It's ridiculous that you claim you said otherwise when it is right there in black and white. But again, gaslighting is your thing, isn't it?


>
> I was the first to describe the difficulty with the German bureaucracy
> "Germany has a rather rigid position on subject adjacent degrees, and
> foreign credentials arent as valuable, simply that credentialing
> requirements in the US (in general) arent as high as they are in
> Germany." your prior post consisted only of "If the school is a
> private school, no. If it is a semi-public, then yes, but the school should
> assist with that."

Yeah, except you didn't address German bureaucracy as such AND your claim made no sense; the degree determines which subject you can teach, and the teaching qualification is a separate issue. But of course every country is going to have paperwork if you want any sort of certificate recognised. This in and of itself is not an example of nightmarish bureaucracy.

>
> I understand it just fine, you seem to misunderstand what the various
> meaning of words are.

Ah, the clever rebuttal . . . .

>
> Your the consistent contributor of non-sense which I constantly have to
> address and correct.

I answered the question. It bothered you that I knew more about it than you did. You can't even get the difference between a singular and plural word right, but you insist you are the expert. When your lies get too convoluted, you resort to ad hominem.


>
> Happy to hear you agree with me on the rigidity of the German edu
> bureaucracy.

Uh, that is doublespeak. Rigid and bureaucratic are not exactly the same. Furthermore, bureaucracy in Germany is in no way limited to education--the word Amt, which I have used repeatedly, means government office. There is an Amt for seemingly everything in Germany--sometimes all in one office, other times very separated. And they are pretty much all Kafkaesque.

>
> Yeah because you might not get an action plan or deficiency plan, you might
> just be declined and your IS may nullify the contract as your not
> credentialed, which as an anecdote I have seen happen.

Um, no. I love how you talk on and on about rigidity, then when I tell you about the action plan, you somehow create this scenario in which it is one of a few possible outcomes. And no, they cannot simply nullify your contract. German labor law is notoriously and sometimes almost problematically pro-worker, and it is insanely hard for you to simply be let go outside of certain timeframes within your contract. But PsyGuy is going to simply claim to have seen it (and maybe he has--but not in Germany) because I saw the action plan. Note no details provided by PsyGuy. By contrast, I provided specifics about the action plan while preserving the privacy of the person--a listing of required documentation, required action, and timeframe.


>
> No its your back peddling again where your agreeing with me since all you
> did was plagiarize my positions. Apparently you think singular and plural
> terms somehow makes a difference.

Again! Here you copied my accusation of plagiarism, even using the word I introduced, in your efforts to gaslight! You didn't understand what a Bundesland was until I used that term, either. Your inability to distinguish something so elemental demonstrates your lack of direct experience with the various Behörden.


>
> Because there is subjective variation between applicants. In the process,
> the outcomes and the policy because interpretation matters.

Talking in circles in an effort to obfuscate doesn't make you right. Subjective variation in the process means the rules are subjective--but you keep saying they are rigid! And whose interpretation exactly? Muddling the language doesn't change the way it works.


>
> The use of the term Trust IS/DS is not made up.

Oh, it may well exist somewhere, and of course the words themselves are not made up. But in Germany they use the German terms, and those I provided for you--Ersatzschule and Ergänzungsschule.

>
> My advice is to identify an IS that will support the LW and get the mutual
> recognition process walked through by them as doing it OS independently
> will be an absolute exercise in futility, even relocating to Germany and
> doing it independently will be an exercise in futility just one with a more
> personal touch. You need an IS and a job to get the German edu bureaucracy
> to take an applicant seriously.
> This is no different than your historical "you just need a
> contract" approach to an EU IT placement.

Actually, it might be easier from overseas . . . and no, you don't need an IS or a job to be taken seriously because it isn't a matter of being taken seriously. It's a matter of which process applies to you. And again, bureaucracy is not limited to education.

Not sure where you are getting that I have a historical "you just need a contract" approach. As an American, you don't need a contract to apply for a visa (which includes a work permit) for Germany, and you don't need a visa for the first 90 days as long as you aren't yet working.


>
> The entirety of your post is nothing more than restating my position and
> adding your own unique brand of fluff and filler. Yes I can, but why say
> the same thing differently when it was right to begin with.

Wow, there you go again!

>
> Yes as compared to the @Thames Pirate version of both a lack of reading
> comprehension AND vocabulary.

And again . . . .

>
> Were it only true if you know more about anything.

And again . . . .

You really are threatened by me, aren't you?