Marketability and dogs

[Illiane_Blues]

Make sure to get the dog crate well in advance. ITs I knew that had a dog used to have him sleep in there the month leading up to the flight so it would be familiar. Others tried that as well, but when the dogs refused to give up their regular sleeping spots, they put the dogs' food bowls in there so the dogs would have a positive connotation with the crates.

[Thames Pirate]

I may not be a recruiter, but my experience working with colleagues of varying backgrounds is that it there is way more to it than a simple rubric of points.

A person with a lot of HOD experience might not be a good fit at a school with an established HOD for whom they would have to work. A person with limited international experience might bring with them a lot of really valuable domestic experience. Sure, there are benefits to building one's resume with curriculum or leadership experience, and yes, family status plays a role at some schools. But there is SO MUCH MORE to hiring than this. You can have tons of "points" but crummy references, for example. Or maybe you have limited experience, but you ran MUN and the school really needs an MUN person but not a soccer coach.

I would not waste a lot of energy on that system.

[interteach]

"Right its all magic. They dont need to speak in those terms they just have to come down to those terms.
We disagree."

It's not that we disagree. It's that you are simply wrong here. It rarely comes down to the terms you assert. Since you don't have much/any experience recruiting and since at least one of your hiring fair experiences was not registering but trying to interview on the periphery, I don't think you have a solid understanding of the hiring process.

What's more, I think that repeatedly posting your point system does a strong disservice to those looking for positions if they accept what you say. It's not helpful for candidates, for recruiters and ultimately for students. If you are going to store posts to cut and paste, they should at least be a fair representation of the topic at hand. At the very least, you should include a disclaimer that you are not and have not been an active recruiter. At the best, you would not attempt to speak ex cathedra about something you don't know.

You will likely post something to the effect of "We disagree" to keep your post percentage high, but that in itself is a symptom that what you post here is more driven by a desire to be the most frequent poster rather than someone who is willing to authentically engage in dialogue and is willing to admit that sometimes they don't know. And that's counterproductive, to put it maybe too politely.

[interteach]

Rarely-->Never

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

It almost always come down to fit, but an IT has to get to that point that their fit is looked at, which happens in an interview, the IT has to get there first and thats where screening and selection occur. Thats what the PASS does its a screening and selection tool for sorting those hundreds of resumes and for those fair lines where an IT gets their resume looked at for 30 seconds. The PASS works best when compared to an actual vacancy, because maybe they need an MUN coach, and maybe they dont, so maybe that experience has utility and maybe it doesnt.

@interteach

No, we disagree mainly because your wrong. I have significantly more recruiting experience than it seems you do, since your approach like most leadership that want to maintain the mysticism of recruiting in IE.
Having tools to assist in recruiting instead of this witch doctor who has to have some connection to the force to understand or do it. Yes, we disagree about how the hiring process works.

I feel that the PASS is a helpful tool, being accurate, practical and having utility provides a strong service to candidates, recruiters, and ultimately students.
I agree, thats why the posts I store and repeatedly use are a fair, accurate, and helpful representation of common topics. Thats why I use them.
I couldnt include such a disclaimer as it would be untrue.

Im happy to engage in authentic dialog. I agree, I wouldnt speak outside the full authority of office (not that I have one) about something I dont know, thats why I always post from experience, research, and trusted and reliable sources.

[Walter]

@Dave
"No, we disagree mainly because your wrong. I have significantly more recruiting experience than it seems you do, since your approach like most leadership that want to maintain the mysticism of recruiting in IE.
Having tools to assist in recruiting instead of this witch doctor who has to have some connection to the force to understand or do it. Yes, we disagree about how the hiring process works."

Setting aside your quite appalling use of the English language, may I just say that it's one thing to write tripe, but it's quite another to inflate the tragedy of your resume to try give credibility to that tripe. I know (and you know that I know) that:
a) You don't work for DODEA
b) You have zero leadership experience
c) Your employment history would, if it were read out in full at the Edinburgh Festival, be a contender for joke of the year.

[Thames Pirate]

To take this back to the original question, you might be very marketable or you might not be. I have known of experienced international IB science teachers who could barely land interviews and people with no IB or international experience landing humanities jobs that many more experienced people coveted. Experience--with curriculum, international teaching, leadership, extracurriculars--is always of some value, but it is only one part of the puzzle. Family status may play a role at some schools, especially when housing and tuition are involved, but it is irrelevant at others. Some recruiters scan references in databases before offering interviews, while others wait until considering making an offer. Being bold at a fair can work for some and put off other admin.

There is no magic formula.

[vandsmith]

Sgphilli85 wrote:
> I have some typical and one atypical question/s.
>
> The typical is this: I’m a Board Certified HS Math Teacher with 6 years
> teaching experience in the States. I have a Masters in Teaching with
> endorsements in Math and ELL. I’m interested in teaching at an
> International School and have no experience thus far with teaching
> internationally but have done some traveling that I can point to. I’ve
> heard that for your first international school job you can’t count on
> getting a job in a “good location” or at a “good school.” I’m not sure what
> this means exactly as locations that are good/interesting for me might not
> be the same as they are for someone else. I’m most interested in South
> America and Southeast Asia (ex: Columbia, Peru, Thailand, Vietnam with a
> few other scattered countries that interest me like Spain and maybe South
> Africa). Can someone explain the types of job I should expect to be able to
> land and help me understand the distinction between opportunities I might
> expect to be open or not open to me based on my experience? Also, I like
> the idea of an international school best, but are there other options I
> should/could consider for finding a job internationally teaching math?
>
> Atypical: I have a bit of a family in tow. I would have a trailing spouse
> and baby (maybe school age by the time I am looking to work, maybe not).
> Moreso, we have a German Shepherd. If it were only up to me I would leave
> the dog behind but my wife doesn’t have the heart to. She says the dog
> comes or we don’t do it which I can understand given how important the dog
> is to us and with this breed you only get to enjoy like 10 years anyways .i
> don’t know if international schools give a stipend for family and you can
> shop around or if they have specific apartments they put you up in. Which
> is more common? Or are both? The former I imagine would allow me to locate
> a spot where we could have a dog, vs the latter I imagine we would be
> subject to rules which exclude the possibility. Also, how would you modify
> your answers above about my marketability based on these circumstances? I
> know we need to find a location that would allow our family To live off a
> single income so while I would love to teach in Western Europe, I’m
> assuming it would be too expensive in most countries (except possibly
> Spain?)
>
> Very much appreciate any advice and insights!
>
> Stephen

to answer your questions:

1. countries are different, and yes, you can make a place as interesting as you are willing. some areas have good savings potential, some places are very safe and the quality of life is great, some places have schools with perhaps a conflicting philosophy (i.e. the fit). so, for me, taking these 3 things into consideration, look at the countries and schools in the areas you listed. hopefully you can sort them out based on your preferences. you shouldn't have a problem getting offers based on your credentials, but you may face some difficulty based on...

2. the family. from dog to baby and trailing spouse, some will say good schools go for who they want regardless of costs, some say it's a definite 'no' for a school. the reality is likely a bit of both. it will be a factor but how much? maybe those who have done some recruiting can answer better. the dog - as our family sees it - is just part of the family and we are responsible for it. it's your family's decision in the end. it's possible to go places with pets, it's harder or easier depending on the country you're interested in. Some are impossible, some are very easy. as for the housing, it is up to the school. in most cases you can relocate or find a place on your own before school starts. many request you stay in school provided apartments for the first year only. it just depends.

good luck!

v.

[PsyGuy]

@Walter

You know nothing and never have. I work for DODEA, have leadership experience and a great resume.

@Thames Pirate

We all know people who have won the lottery, that doesnt change the metrics. There is no magic to the formula but there is a formula and there isnt just one formula. There are a number of recipes to bake a cake, many of them different, all having commonality, but there is a recipe.

@vandsmith

Those are your three factors though, they arent everyones.

Basically everything is different, everywhere is different, the dog might be a problem it might not, the family size might be an issue or it might not, housing might be one thing or something else.
Long way to say nothing, you could of just shrugged and said "maybe", as if that would answer everything.

[Sgphilli85]

Guys, I appreciate the different perspectives. I’ve taken Psyguy’s PASS as a general guideline from someone who knows a lot more than I do about this, and others’ rebuttals as pointing out that in reality things are a lot more nuanced. So thank you for those contributions.

What I’m more vexed by is the arguing that sounds a lot like a “yeah huh” and “nuh uh” that I expect I’ll be hearing when I do have school aged children.

[Thames Pirate]

If you think PsyGuy knows a lot about recruiting, he's got you fooled. Many on here (not me) have seen his actual resume, etc.

If you want to know how to get licensed in something, great--he's your guy. Anything else and he's got good googling skills at best and making it up at worst.

I say this not to get into an argument, but because there are a lot of lurkers on here who take his post total and confidence as a sign that he knows what he is about when, in fact, he doesn't. I'd hate to see people take some of his advice.

As to his system, as I said, there is the obvious merit in experience with curriculum or international teaching or leadership, obviously, but as to how much to weight each element is down to the recruiter's style and the needs of the school. That's all. But it sounds like you got that much figured out.

[interteach]

PsyGuy wrote:

> No, we disagree mainly because your wrong. I have significantly more
> recruiting experience than it seems you do, since your approach like most
> leadership that want to maintain the mysticism of recruiting in IE.
> Having tools to assist in recruiting instead of this witch doctor who has
> to have some connection to the force to understand or do it. Yes, we
> disagree about how the hiring process works.
>

It's not a matter of mysticism. It's more an understanding that there are many more moving parts in recruiting and hiring than your system allows, as well as qualitative data, and purely subjective opinions.

Your data isn't the only thing that matters, and it's just not possible to reduce hiring (and lots of other things) to a mechanistic view or formula if you want to do so successfully. And if the statement "data is the only thing that matters," then the definition of data needs to be substantially expanded to include non-quantifiable information and allow for uncertainty and extremely wide interpretation - something that your reductive approach doesn't seem to want to allow.

So let's get some data:
1. Do you currently recruit teachers for international schools, or have you done so for at least three years in the past five? (And I mean recruiting on a school/division-wide basis, not just vetting or giving an opinion on a departmental candidate).

2. If the answer to the first question is positive, did you exclusively rely upon your system to hire?

3. If the answer to the second question is positive, how did it work out?

[interteach]

>
> What I’m more vexed by is the arguing that sounds a lot like a “yeah huh”
> and “nuh uh” that I expect I’ll be hearing when I do have school aged
> children.

Point well taken. International education is the least regulated education system out there and there is a good deal of misinformation. Sadly, a great deal of it comes from the person who posts the greatest amount in this forum. As long as you are willing to accept that it's a nuanced process and you vet schools carefully when you apply you should be fine.

[PsyGuy]

@Sgphilli85

No one on here has seen my resume, many years ago the leadership on this forum were very upset at my contributions breaking away their smoke and mirrors about IE, but you cant discredit someone if you cant claim to know who they are, so @Walter and the rest of the LPN (League of Psyguy Nemesis) simply fabricated that they knew who I was. No one on this forum knows who I am or has any clue, nor have they seen my resume.

But aside from credentialing you can read my posts and see that the content mastery is there. @Thames Pirate knows how to ship a dog, but nothing else especially anything about horses or Germany. Thats why we have TPF (Thames Pirate Fallacy). Id hate to see anyone sucked into her world and take any of her advice, mostly because its just wrong. Even the few times shes tried to prove her claims, her own evidence demonstrates shes wrong and then she whines about it not being fair, or goal posts being moved, etc. But if you got a dog packing question, she knows that (not that its a lot to know: Find out if your breed and weight is permitted in country, ask your IS if its permitted in IS provided housing, or your hotel while your looking for housing, get all the paperwork and veterinary prep done well advance, determine if you can do quarantine in advance if required, determine the largest carrier that will fit on your plane, and get the dog use to the kennel before departure), but you know everyone got to be good at something.

Then you have the other leadership on this forum who have an agenda and vested interest in maintaining the mysticism, the smoke and mirrors and the fear mongering alive and going in IE, they like being the sole source of information. Your an IT you cant possibly understand the leadership stuff, you need midichlorians and know the way of the force and the will of the great obelisk of IE leadership, and their advice is essentially shaking their head because you cant understand it and saying "As long as you are willing to accept that it's a nuanced process and you vet schools carefully when you apply you should be fine", nuanced process being leadership code for 'you wouldnt understand' and the rest 'just do your best'.

But yes we act more like a bunch of primary students some times.

@Thames Pirate

Its not post counts, or confidence, its data, because only data matters, thats why in fact I do know what Im talking about because I only post from experience, research, and trusted and reliable sources.

@interteach

Sounds like mysticism. Especially when executive recruiters, Apple, Microsoft, Google, the military, they have recruiting down to a science (science not mysticism), not just a formula, an algorithm.
Any sufficiently advance technology is indistinguishable from magic to less developed people. A space shuttle has many more moving parts, more than recruiting and all of leadership has, and it thus most be impossible to understand, except by you know, the engineers that built it. What your really saying is that its impossible for ''you'' to understand it, or really that your one of the initiated and you understand it but its beyond the scope of mere ITs because the dont "currently recruit teachers for international schools, or have done so for at least three years in the past five? And I mean recruiting on a school/division-wide basis, not just vetting or giving an opinion on a departmental candidate". because there arent. Many things are impossible until someone does them, and then they arent, your just not there yet.

Again, the IT has to get to the interview, and then they can pitch their fit for an IS, thats where the fit comes in, until then fit isnt an issue because all you know about them is whats on a piece of paper. ISs have to get that line moving and get those applications down to a short list thats where the PASS works best as a tool. Its a selection tool, its not a IT comparison tool, it works best when comparing ITs against an actual vacancy.

Youre just not there yet, your still looking at recruiting as one process, when its not, that it has portions of it in the process (early) that can be and benefit from machine processing, and it has portions of it in the process (late) that are better suited for a humanistic approach.

The entirety of your position is "I am the great Oz of IE, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain", well maybe you will understand this:
::waving hand::
These arent the droids your looking for.

[interteach]

Actually, my point is that a candidate can be quite successful in finding a position without racking up the points you posit in your system. It's also possible that someone could have many of the points you create, but still find themselves having less of a hiring experience than they hoped. No smoke and mirrors and mystery - just finding the right person based on the year and the priorities of both the school and the candidates.

I seem to have hit a nerve. Perhaps it's best to move on.