What a surprise. Another thread where everyone agrees PG is wrong and PG responds ad infinitum with nonsense.
I don’t have time for popcorn today, the weather is nice and there are outdoor options. Anyone want to join me at the outdoor cafe for a spot of people watching?
Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Reply
@Heliotrope
No they matter because governments are the regulating authority and they credential ITs and Unis matter because they train the ITs.
Again, thats in error there are ISs that are municipal ISs and run buy various governmental authorities. There are ministry run ISs in the ME and the EU, and Asia.
Your "addressing" of the issue doesnt make your claims true. Its heres my opinion and why I think/feel/believe it.
Having a gender balanced staff doesnt benefit a primary IS, do you have data that shows significant performance improvements in ISs that controlled for all other variables but gender of ITs?
You havent shown anything you simply found some writers who have a preference and a similar opinion as you. Thats a Ad Populum fallacy
No, lots and lots of recruiters and leadership dont engage in this practice, if they did there would be more male primary ITs. The opinions on this forum dont even support that at best their claim is that gender as a factor plays some role in my deliberations in considering candidate.
Those are false equivalents, gender balancing doesnt improve IS/DS performance, doesnt make it a better IS.
Because they arent at an advantage.
Im a primary credentialed IT/DT. There may as just one possibility be a self serving bias in the opinions of prior contributors.
@sid
Again, Ad Populum fallacy, I dont have to have the popular position, it has to be true, and it is. There is no advantage in IE for a male primary IT.
No they matter because governments are the regulating authority and they credential ITs and Unis matter because they train the ITs.
Again, thats in error there are ISs that are municipal ISs and run buy various governmental authorities. There are ministry run ISs in the ME and the EU, and Asia.
Your "addressing" of the issue doesnt make your claims true. Its heres my opinion and why I think/feel/believe it.
Having a gender balanced staff doesnt benefit a primary IS, do you have data that shows significant performance improvements in ISs that controlled for all other variables but gender of ITs?
You havent shown anything you simply found some writers who have a preference and a similar opinion as you. Thats a Ad Populum fallacy
No, lots and lots of recruiters and leadership dont engage in this practice, if they did there would be more male primary ITs. The opinions on this forum dont even support that at best their claim is that gender as a factor plays some role in my deliberations in considering candidate.
Those are false equivalents, gender balancing doesnt improve IS/DS performance, doesnt make it a better IS.
Because they arent at an advantage.
Im a primary credentialed IT/DT. There may as just one possibility be a self serving bias in the opinions of prior contributors.
@sid
Again, Ad Populum fallacy, I dont have to have the popular position, it has to be true, and it is. There is no advantage in IE for a male primary IT.
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Reply
The shortage is felt where the hiring and the teaching is done.
That some governments don't see it is their fault, or more likely they are ignoring it because it would mean they have to spend money. There are loads of very real problems in society that aren't being recognised and/or addressed by governments.
You're not in a position to ask for data when you refuse to provide any yourself in a large number of other threads when asked.
What I can do is assure you by saying that I only post from experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources. I actually have highly confident data to support my position. I assume that eases your mind.
I found those articles (and many more) when researching without bias, as I didn't have a position on the matter at the time. I was simply curious to see whether or not a male applicant for a Primary job is at an advantage or not. I would have been just as happy to find that they aren't, happier probably because it would have meant the gender imbalance is not a problem. I found that males are indeed at an advantage, just as the replies in this thread say they are.
That some governments don't see it is their fault, or more likely they are ignoring it because it would mean they have to spend money. There are loads of very real problems in society that aren't being recognised and/or addressed by governments.
You're not in a position to ask for data when you refuse to provide any yourself in a large number of other threads when asked.
What I can do is assure you by saying that I only post from experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources. I actually have highly confident data to support my position. I assume that eases your mind.
I found those articles (and many more) when researching without bias, as I didn't have a position on the matter at the time. I was simply curious to see whether or not a male applicant for a Primary job is at an advantage or not. I would have been just as happy to find that they aren't, happier probably because it would have meant the gender imbalance is not a problem. I found that males are indeed at an advantage, just as the replies in this thread say they are.
-
Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
You two are going a bit off-topic.
The question is if male applicants are at an advantage. The only real way to gauge this is to listen to recruiters and, most of all, primary teachers looking for jobs. They will give you the best indication if it's true or not, as they are the ones offering jobs or applying for them. They will give this advantage or experience it being given or not.
The rest is just assumptions, interesting but irrelevant information, and bias or propaganda.
The only data you need to answer the actual posted question are first-hand accounts.
The question is if male applicants are at an advantage. The only real way to gauge this is to listen to recruiters and, most of all, primary teachers looking for jobs. They will give you the best indication if it's true or not, as they are the ones offering jobs or applying for them. They will give this advantage or experience it being given or not.
The rest is just assumptions, interesting but irrelevant information, and bias or propaganda.
The only data you need to answer the actual posted question are first-hand accounts.
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @sid
>
> Again, Ad Populum fallacy, I dont have to have the popular position, it has
> to be true, and it is. There is no advantage in IE for a male primary IT.
[Between sips of beer.]
You seem to be forgetting that it’s quite possible to be unpopular and wrong simultaneously. Plenty of evidence in this forum for that.
> @sid
>
> Again, Ad Populum fallacy, I dont have to have the popular position, it has
> to be true, and it is. There is no advantage in IE for a male primary IT.
[Between sips of beer.]
You seem to be forgetting that it’s quite possible to be unpopular and wrong simultaneously. Plenty of evidence in this forum for that.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Hey Dave, you remember that fatuous candidate assessment form you developed? The Psyguy Interviewee Scoring System? (I can't remember the acronym.) You know, the one where you ascribe random values to elements of people's experience and education. The one that's based on zero discernible data? The one where you've used your professional background of no years whatsoever in recruiting teachers? The one that reflects your several years of being shuffled around third tier schools like an old deck of playing cards?
Isn't it funny how in your system it's okay to give points for individual qualities, but when I and others say that being a male candidate for ES classroom positions or a female candidate for STEM subjects is advantageous (exactly like your points for individual qualities) you claim to have data that disproves this?
Isn't it funny how in your system it's okay to give points for individual qualities, but when I and others say that being a male candidate for ES classroom positions or a female candidate for STEM subjects is advantageous (exactly like your points for individual qualities) you claim to have data that disproves this?
-
Illiane_Blues
Re: Reply
And even though I believe PsyGuy introducing the government stances as a relevant issue is a good example of a red herring, I would like to mention that in the UK (and other countries) there is a recognised need, thoroughly backed by government policy and public discourse, for more men to work in Early Years education (0–11) and act as ‘role models’. Policy makers often depict the targeted recruitment of male primary teachers as a panacea for male underachievement and disaffection from school. It is commonly assumed (rightfully so or not) that the gender gap in achievement stems from the dearth of male role models in teaching, especially at primary level. And it's not just the UK: in the last few years, many other European and Asian countries have also implemented various policies to encourage men to work in Early Years education.
But again, the above issue is a red herring, as the real question is if male applicants are at an advantage, and only recruiters and primary teachers can answer that, and have done so.
I actually have a social event at my school tomorrow, where both secondary and primary teachers will attend (we don't mix a lot outside these events), so I'll see if I can ask some primary teachers about their experiences.
But again, the above issue is a red herring, as the real question is if male applicants are at an advantage, and only recruiters and primary teachers can answer that, and have done so.
I actually have a social event at my school tomorrow, where both secondary and primary teachers will attend (we don't mix a lot outside these events), so I'll see if I can ask some primary teachers about their experiences.
-
shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
sid wrote:
> What a surprise. Another thread where everyone agrees PG is wrong and PG
> responds ad infinitum with nonsense.
>
> I don’t have time for popcorn today, the weather is nice and there are
> outdoor options. Anyone want to join me at the outdoor cafe for a spot of
> people watching?
I'll come if it serves a decent Sangria!
> What a surprise. Another thread where everyone agrees PG is wrong and PG
> responds ad infinitum with nonsense.
>
> I don’t have time for popcorn today, the weather is nice and there are
> outdoor options. Anyone want to join me at the outdoor cafe for a spot of
> people watching?
I'll come if it serves a decent Sangria!
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
shadowjack wrote:
> sid wrote:
> > I don’t have time for popcorn today, the weather is nice and there are
> > outdoor options. Anyone want to join me at the outdoor cafe for a spot of
> > people watching?
>
> I'll come if it serves a decent Sangria!
I'll join you two as I wait for PG to discount all the contributions to this thread except his own once again, or to dish out more flawed logic and improperly use debating terms (most likely something including the word 'fallacy').
> sid wrote:
> > I don’t have time for popcorn today, the weather is nice and there are
> > outdoor options. Anyone want to join me at the outdoor cafe for a spot of
> > people watching?
>
> I'll come if it serves a decent Sangria!
I'll join you two as I wait for PG to discount all the contributions to this thread except his own once again, or to dish out more flawed logic and improperly use debating terms (most likely something including the word 'fallacy').
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
New drinking game: every time PG uses a Latin term, we drink.
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
It's a bit early for me to start drinking, but doubles all round if you can confirm Dave's friendship with Pilate!
https://youtu.be/kMGu-55sKJs
https://youtu.be/kMGu-55sKJs
-
Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
I like wine. I'm in.
-
Heliotrope
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: Male applicant for Primary job at an advantage, or not?
Walter wrote:
> https://youtu.be/kMGu-55sKJs
That's a great movie!
See if I can find that DVD in storage back home this Summer.
> https://youtu.be/kMGu-55sKJs
That's a great movie!
See if I can find that DVD in storage back home this Summer.
Reply
@Heliotrope
There is no shortage, and thus nothing to feel. male led primary classrooms are conducted just as well as female led classrooms.
There are lots of problems that governments ignore, there are also lots of non-problems that some have a preference for, that are validly ignored, because they are not problems. No everything you dont like is a problem.
Only data matters, I am absolutely in the right position to require data. Your data is in error, and I cant reconcile your "experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources." with my experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources.
Your articles are nothing more than a preference buy some individuals who would like, not need more males in primary.
Males are not at an advantage in recruiting in primary.
@Illiane_Blues
No, what would really matter is having some performance or developmental data, that actually shows a significant difference that male ITs add value to the classroom and thus a need for more male ITs in primary. Recruiters and primary ITs preference or opinion isnt worth anything. If you can show significant recruiters that state or advertise for male ITs only, thats valuable, otherwise it just some ITs and some leadership with an opinion. Who cares if male ITs have an opinion thy are more valuable, thats bias. Who cares if some leadership says they like gender balancing, whats in it for them to say they dont. When they post actual vacancies for male primary ITs that female ITs need not apply, than its something.
No they havent done anything in the UK. They have some talking points, where are the incentives, the coin, the enticements too bring more males into EC and primary DE in the UK. There are none, because they arent worth anything.
The only red herring is your position that opinions and not data should matter, and they dont.
@sid
I havent forgotten that, I could entirely be wrong, but Im not going to substitute my position for yours or anyone elses simply because the popular opinion is that they are right.
There is no shortage, and thus nothing to feel. male led primary classrooms are conducted just as well as female led classrooms.
There are lots of problems that governments ignore, there are also lots of non-problems that some have a preference for, that are validly ignored, because they are not problems. No everything you dont like is a problem.
Only data matters, I am absolutely in the right position to require data. Your data is in error, and I cant reconcile your "experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources." with my experience, research, and reliable and trusted sources.
Your articles are nothing more than a preference buy some individuals who would like, not need more males in primary.
Males are not at an advantage in recruiting in primary.
@Illiane_Blues
No, what would really matter is having some performance or developmental data, that actually shows a significant difference that male ITs add value to the classroom and thus a need for more male ITs in primary. Recruiters and primary ITs preference or opinion isnt worth anything. If you can show significant recruiters that state or advertise for male ITs only, thats valuable, otherwise it just some ITs and some leadership with an opinion. Who cares if male ITs have an opinion thy are more valuable, thats bias. Who cares if some leadership says they like gender balancing, whats in it for them to say they dont. When they post actual vacancies for male primary ITs that female ITs need not apply, than its something.
No they havent done anything in the UK. They have some talking points, where are the incentives, the coin, the enticements too bring more males into EC and primary DE in the UK. There are none, because they arent worth anything.
The only red herring is your position that opinions and not data should matter, and they dont.
@sid
I havent forgotten that, I could entirely be wrong, but Im not going to substitute my position for yours or anyone elses simply because the popular opinion is that they are right.