Hello All
I have noticed that quite a few jobs that were deleted as given on the Search updates, are now reappearing as still available! For example, the school in Harare deleted several teaching positions, including Chemistry, and this is now again listed as available. What gives? Any ideas?
Interested in what people think.
deleted vacancies reappear
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
Jobs are offered to teachers, teachers give provisional acceptance, then back out. Happened at our school a couple of times this recruiting season and had to re-advertise the positions.
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
Would a school delete the positions on the basis of a provisional acceptance if there is a chance that it will not pan out? I have not heard of a "provisional acceptance"...do you mean, for example, "I accept your offer, provided the school agrees to put me on a higher step on the salary scale"? Just wondering.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
Teacher gets offered a job, accepts, but then goes elsewhere. It happens more than you might think.
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
Don't over - jobs appearing, disappearing, and then reappearing. Most are posted by secretaries or heads who don't know what they are doing with technology, posting.
Response
A number of reasons:
1) As @SJ commented on ITs break ('withdraw acceptance') fairly often. They get hired, and are all excited than the work on relocating starts to happen, and they are looking at the listing contract for selling their home they have put 15-20 years into and is their home, kids, etc.. It all gets to be too much for them and they go back to DE, or decide to hold out for their dream position. They have a family or personal emergency, someones gold fish dies, someone gets pregnant. There are a lot of somethings that can and do happen.
I strongly disagree with @SJ on the concept of "provisional acceptance". A scenario where acceptance was conditional on meeting X salary requirement would be resolved in hours or a day, and the recruiter wouldnt withdraw the vacancy posting into the contract was accepted and executed.
2) ISs expand or want to expand enrollment so they hire more staff. Some will be advertise tentative appointments many more will hire and then rescind if the enrollment doesnt meet projections.
3) ITs give late notice. They go on mid year break, come back and either got another appointment or they just decide to leave after peak recruiting has ended. Its late enough in the term that they are unlikely to be dismissed, and bring in another IT this late in the year.
4) Many ISs have unrealistic standards for their tier (all ISS believe they are first tier), Ive seen 3rd tier ISs require a doctorate for a lower secondary vacancy. It takes those recruiters (often inexperienced leadership) a while to realize their target market.
5) Many ISs just arent competitive for the peak recruiting candidates and fairs. The candidates all want their dream vacancy, and they arent interested in hardship or lower tier ISs. The first posting is hoping they are getting lucky or building an applicant pool, the second posting is hoping that those special snowflake IT candidates have developed more realistic goals and are more open to the ISs vacancies.
6) Some ISs have strategic requirements. For example a number of WE ISs/DSs dont really know who is leaving into Spring, and because they will or can only recruit those with EU passports or current working papers, they wait until the market of candidates is receptive to their recruiting.
6A) Likewise some WE regions have very strict recruiting regulations often requiring a vacancy go unfilled for 30-180 days, an IS or DS will post the vacancy early, essentially running the clock until they are actually able to recruit foreigners.
7) Some ISs are recruiting/soliciting applicants for other ISs. You find this more common in hardship locations in Asia and the ME. You apply for an "Aramco" vacancy with a great package only to get contacted by some bottom tier DS/IS that you were referred to them by another sister/partner IS when their vacancy filled.
8) Some support staff/leadership have no idea how technology works. They thought they set up an email filter to route applications and they didnt or they deleted it, and some are just posting vacancies to practice posting vacancies.
9) Some ISs post vacancies that dont exist just to build an applicant pool. They may be desperate for a Maths IT but cant getone for what they are offering so they post a different vacancy (ICT for example) in the hopes that in reviewing resumes they may find someone who could teach Maths, or whatever subject they cant fill.
1) As @SJ commented on ITs break ('withdraw acceptance') fairly often. They get hired, and are all excited than the work on relocating starts to happen, and they are looking at the listing contract for selling their home they have put 15-20 years into and is their home, kids, etc.. It all gets to be too much for them and they go back to DE, or decide to hold out for their dream position. They have a family or personal emergency, someones gold fish dies, someone gets pregnant. There are a lot of somethings that can and do happen.
I strongly disagree with @SJ on the concept of "provisional acceptance". A scenario where acceptance was conditional on meeting X salary requirement would be resolved in hours or a day, and the recruiter wouldnt withdraw the vacancy posting into the contract was accepted and executed.
2) ISs expand or want to expand enrollment so they hire more staff. Some will be advertise tentative appointments many more will hire and then rescind if the enrollment doesnt meet projections.
3) ITs give late notice. They go on mid year break, come back and either got another appointment or they just decide to leave after peak recruiting has ended. Its late enough in the term that they are unlikely to be dismissed, and bring in another IT this late in the year.
4) Many ISs have unrealistic standards for their tier (all ISS believe they are first tier), Ive seen 3rd tier ISs require a doctorate for a lower secondary vacancy. It takes those recruiters (often inexperienced leadership) a while to realize their target market.
5) Many ISs just arent competitive for the peak recruiting candidates and fairs. The candidates all want their dream vacancy, and they arent interested in hardship or lower tier ISs. The first posting is hoping they are getting lucky or building an applicant pool, the second posting is hoping that those special snowflake IT candidates have developed more realistic goals and are more open to the ISs vacancies.
6) Some ISs have strategic requirements. For example a number of WE ISs/DSs dont really know who is leaving into Spring, and because they will or can only recruit those with EU passports or current working papers, they wait until the market of candidates is receptive to their recruiting.
6A) Likewise some WE regions have very strict recruiting regulations often requiring a vacancy go unfilled for 30-180 days, an IS or DS will post the vacancy early, essentially running the clock until they are actually able to recruit foreigners.
7) Some ISs are recruiting/soliciting applicants for other ISs. You find this more common in hardship locations in Asia and the ME. You apply for an "Aramco" vacancy with a great package only to get contacted by some bottom tier DS/IS that you were referred to them by another sister/partner IS when their vacancy filled.
8) Some support staff/leadership have no idea how technology works. They thought they set up an email filter to route applications and they didnt or they deleted it, and some are just posting vacancies to practice posting vacancies.
9) Some ISs post vacancies that dont exist just to build an applicant pool. They may be desperate for a Maths IT but cant getone for what they are offering so they post a different vacancy (ICT for example) in the hopes that in reviewing resumes they may find someone who could teach Maths, or whatever subject they cant fill.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
This plus sometimes they realize after hiring that a visa is not possible and they and the IT have to make changes.
Discussion
@Thames Pirate
Not true, executive leadership knows who they can and cant hire as far as immigration (visas) is concerned. What is much more common is the IS is using the visa excuse as a means of withdrawing the contract while minimizing repercussions and hurt feelings. There are only a small handful of regions and scenarios where an IS could not obtain some form of work visa for a candidate; if an IS really wants someone there is likely a pathway to make it happen, though it is likely to be more costly.
Not true, executive leadership knows who they can and cant hire as far as immigration (visas) is concerned. What is much more common is the IS is using the visa excuse as a means of withdrawing the contract while minimizing repercussions and hurt feelings. There are only a small handful of regions and scenarios where an IS could not obtain some form of work visa for a candidate; if an IS really wants someone there is likely a pathway to make it happen, though it is likely to be more costly.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
Okay, are you arguing with me just because I posted?
Sure, leadership may know not to hire someone over a certain age or from a certain country, but visas can be denied for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with anything that would come up in an interview. Some countries don't allow anyone who has an Israeli stamp in their passport to enter, much less work, for example.
Sure, leadership may know not to hire someone over a certain age or from a certain country, but visas can be denied for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with anything that would come up in an interview. Some countries don't allow anyone who has an Israeli stamp in their passport to enter, much less work, for example.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
No only data matters.
No they arent, there are very, very, very few reasons that would apply to all classes off visas. Those reasons would either be assumed by virtue of being a DT/IT or something criminal.
In your "Israel" scenario, the solution is easy, get a new passport, no stamp, no problem.
No only data matters.
No they arent, there are very, very, very few reasons that would apply to all classes off visas. Those reasons would either be assumed by virtue of being a DT/IT or something criminal.
In your "Israel" scenario, the solution is easy, get a new passport, no stamp, no problem.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
Sure, if the IT knows to do that. Once the visa is denied, however . . . .
Visas seriously are denied all the time for unforeseen reasons. I have experienced it myself--not the visa in that case (it was in the EU and I have EU citizenship), but maybe the teaching credential isn't recognized (which can have a domino effect on the visa or the job as the school needs to stay accredited, for example). In our scenario there were at least four of us, one of whom had a host country credential from another state. The school did everything right, but the regional authorities did not recognize our teaching licenses. Boom, potentially no more job, and for those whose visa was dependent on the job, no more visa. Either way the vacancies were advertised. As far as I know the other three got things worked out, but it wasn't easy.
Sometimes the country changes its policies. Sometimes visas are denied for something the school didn't think would be a problem. There are countries where mail gets lost, documents are misread, or some official is simply crabby and denies an application. None of those are daily occurrences for ITs, but they do happen.
So yes, visa problems.
You seriously enjoy arguing with me just on principle, don't you? I can't even agree with you without you finding fault with what I say. I said your list was great, and I brought up another reason. None of the scenarios you described were necessarily very common (some more than others). This isn't common, but it does happen.
Visas seriously are denied all the time for unforeseen reasons. I have experienced it myself--not the visa in that case (it was in the EU and I have EU citizenship), but maybe the teaching credential isn't recognized (which can have a domino effect on the visa or the job as the school needs to stay accredited, for example). In our scenario there were at least four of us, one of whom had a host country credential from another state. The school did everything right, but the regional authorities did not recognize our teaching licenses. Boom, potentially no more job, and for those whose visa was dependent on the job, no more visa. Either way the vacancies were advertised. As far as I know the other three got things worked out, but it wasn't easy.
Sometimes the country changes its policies. Sometimes visas are denied for something the school didn't think would be a problem. There are countries where mail gets lost, documents are misread, or some official is simply crabby and denies an application. None of those are daily occurrences for ITs, but they do happen.
So yes, visa problems.
You seriously enjoy arguing with me just on principle, don't you? I can't even agree with you without you finding fault with what I say. I said your list was great, and I brought up another reason. None of the scenarios you described were necessarily very common (some more than others). This isn't common, but it does happen.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
"The most difficult part is getting a visa, many private/independent schools just wont go through the expense and effort to apply for one, with a high probability of being denied (lots of teachers in the US)." --PsyGuy
"and you never know if a visa wont be issued until its not. that puts the school in the position of having to possibly break contract very late in the season." --PsyGuy
I wasn't looking for your words, but a quick search on here indicates that visas can and have been an issue. There are health checks in some countries that might be problematic. Numerous people reported difficulties, particularly in the ME. This board represents only a fraction of the ITs, so yes, visa problems.
I swear you like to argue with me just to be contrary.
"and you never know if a visa wont be issued until its not. that puts the school in the position of having to possibly break contract very late in the season." --PsyGuy
I wasn't looking for your words, but a quick search on here indicates that visas can and have been an issue. There are health checks in some countries that might be problematic. Numerous people reported difficulties, particularly in the ME. This board represents only a fraction of the ITs, so yes, visa problems.
I swear you like to argue with me just to be contrary.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
If the visa is denied, then 1) The IT didnt do their research, 2) the IS didnt really care enough to do a through review before submitting it. Meaning the IT or the IS didnt want you to have the job enough.
There are very, very, very few unseen reasons for a visa denial, that can no be overcome with sufficient application of resources, an IS that withdraws an appointment on that basis simple doesnt want the IT enough to expend those resources. As your example of the three ITs demonstrated things got worked out and can get worked out if an IS is willing.
None of that is relevant, many individuals who are not ITs/DTs relocate and enter a vast number of countries everyday. If a country doesnt recognize teaching a credential there are other pathways to entry. Teachers are not the only ones to relocate.
Regional immigration authorities rarely change regulations that effect more than technical aspects of a visa application and process, and when they do the changes are minor. Again, not particularly relevant countries have various categories of unskilled, skilled, and highly skilled immigration requirements. Turkey for example has a regulation for ITs that requires a degree in the subject you are teaching. The IS hires the IT to teach what their qualified in, and then assigns them classes that they were hired for.
Mail can be resent, politics can be malleable with application of the right relationships and resources, and applications can be resubmitted with hopefully different inspectors reading it. Failure is only an option if the IS wants it to be.
Yes medical clearance can be an issue, but its a foreseeable one. If you have HIV you know your not getting a visa for China, so why bother applying, and if you do, you deserve to be denied for wasting everyone time.
The ability to find and identify error does not mitigate the existence of the error, only data matters.
Thank you for the quotes, they demonstrate exceptionally well the difference between what an IS CANT and WONT do. "Most difficult" does not equate to impossible.
There are only one scenario where visa issuance is truly an issue, and that is the IT knew/should of known they were barred from entry.
So no, visas not an issue, if an IS wants to overcome then.
If the visa is denied, then 1) The IT didnt do their research, 2) the IS didnt really care enough to do a through review before submitting it. Meaning the IT or the IS didnt want you to have the job enough.
There are very, very, very few unseen reasons for a visa denial, that can no be overcome with sufficient application of resources, an IS that withdraws an appointment on that basis simple doesnt want the IT enough to expend those resources. As your example of the three ITs demonstrated things got worked out and can get worked out if an IS is willing.
None of that is relevant, many individuals who are not ITs/DTs relocate and enter a vast number of countries everyday. If a country doesnt recognize teaching a credential there are other pathways to entry. Teachers are not the only ones to relocate.
Regional immigration authorities rarely change regulations that effect more than technical aspects of a visa application and process, and when they do the changes are minor. Again, not particularly relevant countries have various categories of unskilled, skilled, and highly skilled immigration requirements. Turkey for example has a regulation for ITs that requires a degree in the subject you are teaching. The IS hires the IT to teach what their qualified in, and then assigns them classes that they were hired for.
Mail can be resent, politics can be malleable with application of the right relationships and resources, and applications can be resubmitted with hopefully different inspectors reading it. Failure is only an option if the IS wants it to be.
Yes medical clearance can be an issue, but its a foreseeable one. If you have HIV you know your not getting a visa for China, so why bother applying, and if you do, you deserve to be denied for wasting everyone time.
The ability to find and identify error does not mitigate the existence of the error, only data matters.
Thank you for the quotes, they demonstrate exceptionally well the difference between what an IS CANT and WONT do. "Most difficult" does not equate to impossible.
There are only one scenario where visa issuance is truly an issue, and that is the IT knew/should of known they were barred from entry.
So no, visas not an issue, if an IS wants to overcome then.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1190
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: deleted vacancies reappear
The question was why a school might repost a vacancy. Visa issues are one of those reasons--whether through the fault of the IS for not doing its homework, the IT for not knowing about the rules or not disclosing medical issues, or through any number of issues that the IS doesn't want to bother fighting.
Yes, visas might be a reason a vacancy is reposted.
Yes, visas might be a reason a vacancy is reposted.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
This is very true, you're right.
Even with IS's misrepresenting visa issues as cause to withdraw a contract in poor faith, there are still some measure of truly valid visa issuance events that result in nullification of a contract.
My apologies, and deepest appreciation for your dedicated and insightful contributions to the forum, and maintaining our community integrity.
This is very true, you're right.
Even with IS's misrepresenting visa issues as cause to withdraw a contract in poor faith, there are still some measure of truly valid visa issuance events that result in nullification of a contract.
My apologies, and deepest appreciation for your dedicated and insightful contributions to the forum, and maintaining our community integrity.