Thinking about teaching internationally....need advice pls

[NYCHistoryTeacher]

Hi!

I'm 27 year old teacher working at a public school in Manhattan, NYC. While I am, for the most part, happy teaching here, I am yearning for adventure and want to get out a see the world while I'm still relatively young.

Current Qualifications:
-4 years full time experience teaching
-Dual licensed Gen Ed Social Studies 7-12th grade (Middle & High School) & Adolescent Special Ed Generalist (all subjects 7-12th)
-Bachelors in Social Studies Education, Masters in Special Education
-Experience running musical theater program/ extra curricular activities
-Experience with teacher leadership positions

I also have a husband who is a certified teacher, but is no longer teaching currently. He also has a bachelors in education, and 4 years experience, but recently wanted to see what else is out there for him. However, he is willing to get back into teaching if it makes it easier for us to find jobs overseas. He is also a history teacher, but is open to getting TEFL certified and teaching English.

Here is where I need the advice:
1. How likely is it that my husband and I will get jobs in a "good" (meaning: decent salary, not over-worked, sane admin, decently behaved kids) school in Europe? Even if we are not placed at the same school, at least in the same city. (I know it is the most competitive in Europe, but I am willing to wait/hold out for a job offer)

2. What can I expect from international teaching? Will it be the same as teaching here? (high pressure observations, very high workload, etc)

I really appreciate the insight and advice! I am definitely a stressed out teacher feeling like I need to spread my wings and see the world. I wonder if international teaching is worth the risk of leaving my job that I am happy with over here.

[Thames Pirate]

So here is the deal with Europe:

Pay is relative. People on this board frequently complain about how low the pay is in Europe, and it is absolutely true that you will not live high on the hog as one might in SE Asia. So if you have massive student loans or want to have a housekeeper, teaching in Europe is not for you. If you are content to live like a true middle class (not upper middle class) local, great. But if you are teaching in Manhattan, you are probably already thinking moderate flat in a decent neighbourhood rather than house or swanky apartment in the fancy neighbourhood. You won't save tons of cash, but you can save normal amounts. So make sure your expectations are realistic in that regard (and that you take the groaning about pay in Europe on this board with a grain of salt).

Remember that there are, like anywhere else, "tiers" of school. This means there are vast differences in pay. There are for-profits, start-up schools, religious schools, boarding schools, and small city ISs that pay far less than the big name schools. But then, the cost of living in Brno is far lower than it is in London. Realistically, the big name schools are a bit of a long shot (but I am still going to tell you to go for it), but the middle range schools and the smaller, newer schools not on the big recruiting sites are a safer bet. Researching the quality of these schools is a bit harder, though. You will have to be diligent and look at local blogs and reviews, read between the lines, and maybe even contact one or two people at the school.

There are those who will tell you that you have to take a crap posting in Asia and work your way up to Europe. That's baloney. Also, it's really tricky but not impossible to find jobs at different schools in the same city (especially at the same time). More likely is that one person gets a job at school A, and upon arrival the partner gets a job at school B that they would never have found if they hadn't already lived in the city.

Okay, now to you specifically:

You are in competitive fields with no international experience. Your partner has not been in the classroom of late. You are in the same field to some extent. You didn't mention curriculum experience (IB, AP). These work against you.

You are also a teaching couple or a single with one dependent who could be slotted in for cover. You have an advanced degree. Sped might be a less competitive option. You have leadership experience. You don't have kids. These all work in your favour.

If you have only taught middle school social studies and your partner is unemployable in country outside the school, that's different than having specific and hard-to-find experience with a spouse who works from home.

Hopefully this answers a bit about your competitiveness and ability to find something. As to what to expect, again, it varies dramatically. The European labor laws and mindset of separating work from personal life do mean you are more likely to have a good work-life balance than in the US. However, start up schools might require a fair bit of work! Overall, though, I would say the work expectations are high, but the hours are manageable. You are more likely to be asked to accompany the IB geography class to Scotland or the swim team to Budapest for 3 days--and if you think camping with 4th graders

The observation situation also varies wildly. I had a colleague who has been observed 7 times while neither hubby nor I have never been observed formally (just informally as a matter of course or when we volunteered to be part of an observation protocol testing phase). That said, the pressure situation is a bit different; generally, if the board is happy and parents are happy, they will leave you alone.


The danger is that you won't go back to NYC. You might not like the first job, but you might just move on to IS number two. The rewards of working with TCKs and fellow expats is amazing. Seeing the world as something other than a tourist is liberating. You will have friends all over the world in just a few short years as you and your colleagues move around (most of us have friends in major cities around the globe). Is it worth the risk? Definitely.

[NYCHistoryTeacher]

Thames Pirate-
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response! I really appreciate your insight and honesty.

I do not have AP or IB experience, and I'm happy to hear that the work-life balance in Europe is better than here in NYC. My work life balance is almost non-existent, and while I'm not afraid of hard work, I'm definitely looking for a lifestyle where I can have my evenings and weekends to myself and actually enjoy my breaks.

I've heard horror stories about schools in SE Asia and ME working teachers to the bone, and I'm already doing that here so there is not reason for me to move just for a change of scenery.

[shadowjack]

NYC I second much of what TP says. Furthermore, ignore TEFL it won't get your husband anywhere at a good international school. You mentioned your husband is a history teacher, but at what level? That plays a role. Also does he have any other certifications (geography, psychology, or the ability to teach those courses later, once he is at a school?

Secondly, I see your comments about schools in the ME and SE Asia weren't on this post. That's good, because it is quite a generalization. Generally, here's how it works. Top schools pay more and expect more from you. They are top schools for a reason, and the reason is built on the foundation and hard work of staff past and present. That said, there are excellent schools in those places that you'd be crazy not to take a job at if offered. So let me talk to you about the reality...

So many teachers starting out want to be in Europe. It's their Mecca destination. And there are a lot of run of the mill and worse schools looking for them. This is a bit general, but also a nugget of truth with one or two exceptions: if you want to experience Europe and pay for the privilege, go to Italy or Spain or Portugal. You won't be paid much, you might have to dip into your savings, and you will if only one of you is working, but you will be in Ahhh! EUROPE! If you want some better coin, aim for central northern Europe. Pay and employment protection tends to be higher. But, schools are much less willing to train you - they want you trained. Yes, there are exceptions, but that's what they are.

Here is my advice. You are late for recruiting this year. Sign up with Search, get your references in order, and hope openings come up late in Europe (which they often do given European labour laws). If not, you are ready for next year's recruiting season early. Look at a wide range of schools across the globe and target schools of interest in Europe and elsewhere. Be open. Then, in August and September, start applying.

Good luck - there's a big world out there and it is likely that once free of the constrictions of US education, you won't want to go back...

[MamfeMan]

SJ and TP have given you really good, solid advice and I'm not going to follow up on that in the least. I will say this: I, too, was an exhausted NYC public school teacher- six years at public middle schools in Brooklyn. I've worked at three international schools over the past decade, and it was like I died and went to heaven. You simply won't have the management issues and stresses that come with working in public schools, much less those in New York. I'm curious, though, why you are limiting your search to Europe. The world is really, really big and almost every country on this planet has an international school that is half-way decent. You are young. You don't have kids. Europe will be there when you are elderly. Taking a bit of more adventurous risk- South America, Asia, Africa- might be something that you would find really rewarding. And in a most cases, you'd be living like a king and banking more money than you can imagine. Trust me- after we left our 450 square foot apartment in Brooklyn and went overseas to our sprawling, marble-floored apartment, had a maid we paid very handsomely, yet was dirt-cheap, and saved enough money in two years to pay off our student loans- there was no turning back.

If you are stuck on Europe, I do think Shadowjack's advice about registering for Search is a good strategy. Who knows, you might land that dream job, but if you don't, come next fall, you'll be primed and ready. The world is your pedagogical oyster at this point. Embrace it.

[Overhere]

The best advice we ever received was given to us at our first job fair by a well respected administrator. He told us not to limit our search but rather expand it to find the schools that will be a perfect fit. We followed his advice the very next day and ever since and have had a marvelous and rewarding overseas teaching career. We have taught in both Europe and Asia, in budget schools as well as high flyers and each one has had its rewards and frustrations we wouldn't change anything.

[PsyGuy]

So youre whats called a tourist teacher.

Im going to disagree with a lot of what @Thames Pirate wrote. In reply to your inquiries:

1) Not very likely. the bar to entry in IE is 2 years and you have 4 years and your spouse hasnt seen the inside of a classroom and nearly half a decade. There are plenty of ITs with stronger resumes who want to go to the WE.
Middle class in the EU is about €30K/yr which is what youll find in a middle third tier IS, which is if your lucky what you are competitive for. That means 2500€/mth your taxes will on average of 30%, but lets say you its 25% that leaves you with 1800€/mth a 1LDk apartment in the CBD will be about 550€(you can pay less outside but you pay it back in increased transportation costs, etc.) giving you 1250€/mth. 500€/mth food and sundries. Were not at 750€/mth. Transportation is about 80€/mth/ea for 160€. Utilities (Water/Elec/Gas/Sew) will run you about 150€/mth is you turn the AC/Heat off when you leave for the day. This is 390€/mth left. Internet thats fast enough to stream video will cost about 100€/mth and talk/text mobile will cost you 50€/mth. This leaves you with 190€/mth and thats just the basics. You will live very middle class hand to mouth on one salary if you have two salaries you can live off one of them and the other becomes discretionary, its still not a lot of coin.

The 1st tier/Elite tier IS are a LONG, LONG shot, but someone wins the lottery too.
You dont HAVE to put in time in Asia, the Eu and the WE has lower tier ISs just as everywhere, but there is more desirability for even low tier EU/WE ISs. You could get into one of those ISs from DE, but those ITs competitive for that have much more experience and stronger resumes. You can you the PASS below to get a very basic understanding of your marketability. ITs generally dont become competitive for the We until they get a score around 5:
PASS (PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System):
1) 1 pt / 2 years Experience (Max 10 Years)
2) 1 pt - Advance Degree (Masters)
3) 1 pt - Cross Certified (Must be schedule-able)
4) 1 pt - Curriculum Experience (IB, AP, IGCSE)
5) 1pt - Logistical Hire (Single +.5 pt, Couple +1 pt)
6) .5 pt - Previous International School Experience (standard 2 year contract)
7) .5 pt - Leadership Experience/Role (+.25 HOD, +.5 Coordinator)
8) .5 pt - Extra Curricular (Must be schedule-able)
9) .25 pt - Special Populations (Must be qualified)
10) .25 pt - Special Skill Set (Must be documentable AND marketable)

IT CLASSES:
1) INTERN ITs have a score around 0
2) ENTRY ITs have a score around 2
3) CAREER ITs have a score around 4
4) PROFESSIONAL ITs have a score around 6
5) MASTER ITs have a score around 8

2) There is a generally better work/life balance, but there are also elite/1st tier ISs in the WE/EU that will take their pound of flesh. The expectations can be VERY high. There is a lot more internal motivation for students rather the external motivation.
Generally formal observations are maybe once a year, though I agree with @Thames Pirate there are ITs that seem to get observed a lot more often. Understand though that formal observations are more a procedural aspect of disciplinary systems in regulated (public/maintained) DSs. In IE ISs dont have to entertain those types of activities, they can decline to renew your contract for any reason or no reason, and they can likely dismiss you just as easily. They dont need to do observations to justify any of those. If everyone is happy youre generally left alone.

You have a lot of negatives and not a lot of positives. ESOL is worth nothing in IE, though your spouse could possibly do it if you have too.
I agree with @SJ, their is a lot of good in Asia, and the EU/WE is a lot of ITs dream destination because its overly romanticized.

I would go further than @SJ in joining SA (Search), I would plan a holiday wherever it is you want to teach this summer and go. You will find ISs/DSs you would never have access too as they are off the circuit. These ISs/DSs will want to interview you F2F and its a softer sell on getting a visa for a candidate thats actually on the ground and on site.

[Thames Pirate]

Of course he disagrees (because I said it), but he's wrong.

LOTS of people get into WE right off the bat. You can do just fine here in WE on the salaries at not just the top schools, but others as well. Sure, you aren't buying a house, but you can live comfortably (and yes, you generally will still make more than 30K--unless the cost of living is really low). I know of a start up school paying 40-50K, and they are just starting the certification process. Several of their teachers have no prior IE experience.

There are schools everywhere that expect hard work, but even this start up, where people are really stretched thin, there is work/life balance. The balance at higher tier ISs is actually better in my experience.

I do find it interesting that in prior threads when I have suggested the "soft interview holiday" method, PsyGuy has only ever scoffed at it (because I said it). It is a good idea. Recognise that he will disagree with everything I say, so don't take his word as gospel (for that matter, don't take anyone's--we're all just speaking from our experience), and read through prior threads and whatever advice you get here to make the decision that makes sense for YOU.

Best of luck!

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

No they dont, however you are defining "LOTS" many, many, many more do not get into the EU. You can get by on WE salaries, not do fine. No the evarge is about €30K/mth. Yes another one of your never ending friend/IS/etc. that is always congruent with whatever point you want to make. Well at leadership camp I met this one IS that pays €30K/yr.
The soft interview as you put it was not appropriate in those cases, in this one it is.
Your experience isnt congruent with my experience. We disagree.