Hi Guys,
So I am new to the forum and I am looking for advice on the best way to get into international school teaching.
Background: I am a 25 year old Irish guy and would love to teach Physical education in ISs all over the world but especially in Asia and the middle east. I am currently in my final year studying BSc in Exercise and Health Fitness Level 8 bachelors degree in a college in Ireland.
So I am looking into all my options and need to make a decision soon!
Option 1: I wanted to do a masters in Physical education in Ireland after I graduate to get my teaching licence in Ireland but the teaching council here are not accepting my degree unless I go back to complete additional modules to qualify just to be in with a chance to do the masters. There is only one masters course in PE in the country. This would take me 4 years to come out with the masters (Additional modules 2 years, masters 2 years) and a big financial investment. Also there is a high chance of not finding work and I would still have to leave Ireland to get any kind of teaching job as the market here is terrible at the minute.
Option 2: Finish my degree and go the UK to do a PGCE in physical education and get my QTS. Work over there for a year or 2 and then move abroad to International schools. However, I would have to re-sit my English and maths exams from my leaving cert (Equivalent to GCSEs) and pass the numeracy and literacy exams as well as a competitive interview. Many schools are looking for UK teaching experience in schools to which I have none and would find it hard enough to get as I would be in Ireland studying for the Leaving cert exams and working part time to fund the course. Also it is expensive with the average PGCE costing £9500 in fees alone. I would have high living expenses for the year and may not be able to find work during the course. The earliest I could start the course is Sept 2019 all going well. Again I am told it is hard to find work in the subject to even get my QTS after the course.
Option 3: I am looking into doing the Teach-Now program to get a teaching licence and then transfer it to gain QTS and hope that is enough to get a start in a school somewhere/anywhere. I am thinking about doing the full masters with them but many are saying it is worthless as it is not accredited by an actual college. This option would be the easiest to my knowledge as I wouldn't have to do additional exams just to qualify to get into it and I could do it straight away. However my primary degree is not specifically in physical education so this may cause problems
Finally from your experience is there work for PE teachers at these schools or do they not take PE as serious as the rest of the subjects like English and maths?
What would you guys do if you were me?
I am really stressed out about all this and just want to be a PE teacher! but with all the red tape and hoops to jump through I might just be better off doing a different masters and getting a job in a different field.
Any advice welcomed and GREATLY appreciated!
Career Advice for Irish Guy? Please help
Re: Career Advice for Irish Guy? Please help
I think getting the PGCE might be the best route for you. You've looked at England - have you looked at Scotland though? Potentially no / lower fees (I think at most it would be £1500) and would be able then to get to the probationery stage - you'd have to do this through the "alternative route" rather than the guaranteed year, but there is still (I think) a shortage of PE teachers and you should be able to do this reasonably easily. It might be worth contacting GTC Scotland - www.gtcs.org.uk
Ultimately, that gets you the teaching practice and you can then move abroad - usually you're looking at at least 2 years before you can though.
Ultimately, that gets you the teaching practice and you can then move abroad - usually you're looking at at least 2 years before you can though.
Re: Career Advice for Irish Guy? Please help
If the GTP is still available, that would be a cheaper route into teaching. Also, would you pay for the PGCE if you did it in Northern Ireland (given the dual citizenship possibility)?
Options 2 and 3 look better than 1.
There are also 'iPGCEs' available from a few universities in the UK which can be taken at distance. They can lead on to a masters but many schools (surprisingly including an very 'top end' school I worked at) accept them. They do not, however, confer QTS so some schools do avoid.
You are entitled to loans for the PGCE as an EU student. These need to be repaid when you earn 21kGBP or over.
Some additional info to mull over. Don't stress! If you are focused and determined, you'll get there I assure you.
Options 2 and 3 look better than 1.
There are also 'iPGCEs' available from a few universities in the UK which can be taken at distance. They can lead on to a masters but many schools (surprisingly including an very 'top end' school I worked at) accept them. They do not, however, confer QTS so some schools do avoid.
You are entitled to loans for the PGCE as an EU student. These need to be repaid when you earn 21kGBP or over.
Some additional info to mull over. Don't stress! If you are focused and determined, you'll get there I assure you.
Re: Career Advice for Irish Guy? Please help
Thanks for your replies curiousme and expatscot.
Expatscot: Yes I agree that doing a PGCE is probably the best option for me. My other options are too uncertain and I want to guarantee myself a good career in a subject that I am very passionate about. I will look into doing it in Scotland in greater detail however I still have to resit my English and maths in my leaving cert to qualify for their routes into teaching same as England. As I am currently in my final year in college I will not be able to sit them in June 2018 so it looks like I will sit them in June 2019.
curiousme: Yes I looked into doing it in the Ulster university and it costs around the same as England. They also require me to sit my English and maths again. I would prefer to do the proper PGCE as opposed to IPGCEs as I would like to have the full qualification and acquire QTS and be done with it. This would give me the ability to apply for all jobs in my subject area and not just hope to get into some tier 3 school and be lucky to have it. On the loan that is a good idea to repay when I earn 21k and over. Helps take some pressure off in case I cant find a job for a while. Thanks for the encouragement! Yes I want to be a PE teacher more then anything so I will get there in the end!
My plan now is to finish my degree, continue working and saving, get some PE experience in a school in Ireland and any coaching certificates I can pick up to strengthen my application for 2019 entry in any University haha.
Expatscot: Yes I agree that doing a PGCE is probably the best option for me. My other options are too uncertain and I want to guarantee myself a good career in a subject that I am very passionate about. I will look into doing it in Scotland in greater detail however I still have to resit my English and maths in my leaving cert to qualify for their routes into teaching same as England. As I am currently in my final year in college I will not be able to sit them in June 2018 so it looks like I will sit them in June 2019.
curiousme: Yes I looked into doing it in the Ulster university and it costs around the same as England. They also require me to sit my English and maths again. I would prefer to do the proper PGCE as opposed to IPGCEs as I would like to have the full qualification and acquire QTS and be done with it. This would give me the ability to apply for all jobs in my subject area and not just hope to get into some tier 3 school and be lucky to have it. On the loan that is a good idea to repay when I earn 21k and over. Helps take some pressure off in case I cant find a job for a while. Thanks for the encouragement! Yes I want to be a PE teacher more then anything so I will get there in the end!
My plan now is to finish my degree, continue working and saving, get some PE experience in a school in Ireland and any coaching certificates I can pick up to strengthen my application for 2019 entry in any University haha.
Response
Option 1 isnt really an IT option its an advance degree option. Its what you would do if you want to study more.
Option 2 is more feasible but youre right it is more costly. You would essentially be an NQT forever, because youd find it very difficult to obtain an appointment that would allow you to do induction. Induction isnt as big a deal in IE, youd only find it a barrier at the 1st/elite tier ISs, and by the time your competitive for that level you could do induction at a BSO.
Option 3 is the easiest but the real problem is you would need a job first as finding an IS that will give you a classroom for 3 months for training isnt really very practical if they havent appointed you to a position. If you have the job why do you need the credential? Your first goal isnt deciding to do Teach Now its to get a job.
The Masters with teach now is unaccredited, its not worth more than the paper its printed on, and it wouldnt be any cheaper than other options.
Your academic preparation would have nothing to do with what you earn your Credential in through Teach Now. there are Comp Lit graduates who get credentialed in Maths.
You would have to take exams, but they are a lot faster. You have to take 3 PRAXIS exams as part of the program.
Im going to diverge from the other contributors, you need less studies and more experience, me recommendations are:
1) You dont say what sports you excel at or have coaching experience in. In primary its okay to be a generalist and not really any coaching experience but at the secondary level you need a coaching qualification and/or experience. Whatever sport it is getting an entry level coaching qualification is more important at this point than 4 years in a Masters program.
2) Id set the Masters program off to the side for a while. Youd become a more expensive hire having a Masters and no experience making it more difficult for you to obtain an appointment. A Masters should do more than get you in the classroom. You seem really focused ona Sports Masters but an Ed.Ld Masters is going to do more for you at least in terms of selling your ability to teach and potentially moving into leadership positions such as Athletics Director or AP/VP/DP of Student Activities or something like that. That can wait for a couple years.
3) The consensus of the forum is 2 years post certification experience before entering IE, but in your case Id just start looking at ISs any IS and see if anyone is interested. Youre problem like a number of fields in DE is that there is zero demand in DE for your teaching field and you could wait yours if ever getting a DT appointment. Once someone takes a flyer on you then you can look at options like Teach Now, but you need to transition from the student side to the IT side of the classroom and the sooner you do that the better. You can even add to your resume that you are pursuing certification, etc.
Most ISs which is essentially the lower tier ISs dont put a lot of resources into PE. A lot of ISs will appoint LHs, with or without credentials or various certificates.
As for the loans if you enter IE permanently you will never have to pay them back, as far as anyone knows your just and ET making less than £21K.
You can do a PGCEi and then standardize it though the US through CT after you have two years of experience.
Scotland will make you resit your English and Maths as well, your not buying yourself any efficiencies.
Get a Job
Do Teach Now (or another program"
Get full QTS
Thats a year and your a professional DT/IT, then move on to bigger and better things, think of the third tier IS in the hardship region that you are as doing grunt work in while doing your credential as some internship Uni program, its a speck on your resume that wont matter in 5 years.
Option 2 is more feasible but youre right it is more costly. You would essentially be an NQT forever, because youd find it very difficult to obtain an appointment that would allow you to do induction. Induction isnt as big a deal in IE, youd only find it a barrier at the 1st/elite tier ISs, and by the time your competitive for that level you could do induction at a BSO.
Option 3 is the easiest but the real problem is you would need a job first as finding an IS that will give you a classroom for 3 months for training isnt really very practical if they havent appointed you to a position. If you have the job why do you need the credential? Your first goal isnt deciding to do Teach Now its to get a job.
The Masters with teach now is unaccredited, its not worth more than the paper its printed on, and it wouldnt be any cheaper than other options.
Your academic preparation would have nothing to do with what you earn your Credential in through Teach Now. there are Comp Lit graduates who get credentialed in Maths.
You would have to take exams, but they are a lot faster. You have to take 3 PRAXIS exams as part of the program.
Im going to diverge from the other contributors, you need less studies and more experience, me recommendations are:
1) You dont say what sports you excel at or have coaching experience in. In primary its okay to be a generalist and not really any coaching experience but at the secondary level you need a coaching qualification and/or experience. Whatever sport it is getting an entry level coaching qualification is more important at this point than 4 years in a Masters program.
2) Id set the Masters program off to the side for a while. Youd become a more expensive hire having a Masters and no experience making it more difficult for you to obtain an appointment. A Masters should do more than get you in the classroom. You seem really focused ona Sports Masters but an Ed.Ld Masters is going to do more for you at least in terms of selling your ability to teach and potentially moving into leadership positions such as Athletics Director or AP/VP/DP of Student Activities or something like that. That can wait for a couple years.
3) The consensus of the forum is 2 years post certification experience before entering IE, but in your case Id just start looking at ISs any IS and see if anyone is interested. Youre problem like a number of fields in DE is that there is zero demand in DE for your teaching field and you could wait yours if ever getting a DT appointment. Once someone takes a flyer on you then you can look at options like Teach Now, but you need to transition from the student side to the IT side of the classroom and the sooner you do that the better. You can even add to your resume that you are pursuing certification, etc.
Most ISs which is essentially the lower tier ISs dont put a lot of resources into PE. A lot of ISs will appoint LHs, with or without credentials or various certificates.
As for the loans if you enter IE permanently you will never have to pay them back, as far as anyone knows your just and ET making less than £21K.
You can do a PGCEi and then standardize it though the US through CT after you have two years of experience.
Scotland will make you resit your English and Maths as well, your not buying yourself any efficiencies.
Get a Job
Do Teach Now (or another program"
Get full QTS
Thats a year and your a professional DT/IT, then move on to bigger and better things, think of the third tier IS in the hardship region that you are as doing grunt work in while doing your credential as some internship Uni program, its a speck on your resume that wont matter in 5 years.
Re: Career Advice for Irish Guy? Please help
PsyGuy: Thanks very much for your informative reply.
You have given me a lot to think about and you may have given me my new plan.
Your right my option 2 may result in me being stuck in the UK looking for an opening to complete my NQT and it may never happen.
Through some research It appears I may be able to get a pe teaching job in the ME through some organisations and a limited amount of schools there and in china are looking for someone like me who has a relevant degree but no teaching licence or experience.
The organisations are sabis and worldteachers. Sabis seems to get bad reviews online but I wont mind if I can get a start somewhere and sign up to do the teach now program to get my license. Anyone have experience with them?
My main sports are in GAA (Hurling and Gaelic football). So not very universal abroad. I have extensive playing and coaching experience in these sports. I will aim to get as many coaching certs as I can in other sports like soccer, volleyball and basketball in the coming month to make myself more marketable. Also I have joined a boxing club with my university and I am the strength and conditioning coach for them now. My search is on to find a job and get the ball rolling!
Would my degree and QTS with years of teaching experience be enough to land me good job opportunities in tier 1 cities as I advance in my career or would I need to do more study at some stage?
Finally, I am new to all this and dont fully understand some of the terminology.
IE? BSO? (is this British school overseas?). DE? DT? CT? LHs?
Thanks a million PsyGuy!
You have given me a lot to think about and you may have given me my new plan.
Your right my option 2 may result in me being stuck in the UK looking for an opening to complete my NQT and it may never happen.
Through some research It appears I may be able to get a pe teaching job in the ME through some organisations and a limited amount of schools there and in china are looking for someone like me who has a relevant degree but no teaching licence or experience.
The organisations are sabis and worldteachers. Sabis seems to get bad reviews online but I wont mind if I can get a start somewhere and sign up to do the teach now program to get my license. Anyone have experience with them?
My main sports are in GAA (Hurling and Gaelic football). So not very universal abroad. I have extensive playing and coaching experience in these sports. I will aim to get as many coaching certs as I can in other sports like soccer, volleyball and basketball in the coming month to make myself more marketable. Also I have joined a boxing club with my university and I am the strength and conditioning coach for them now. My search is on to find a job and get the ball rolling!
Would my degree and QTS with years of teaching experience be enough to land me good job opportunities in tier 1 cities as I advance in my career or would I need to do more study at some stage?
Finally, I am new to all this and dont fully understand some of the terminology.
IE? BSO? (is this British school overseas?). DE? DT? CT? LHs?
Thanks a million PsyGuy!
Reply
@Irish lad
My experience in PE is that unless your a known pro athlete or you know people who could give you an appointment that waiting as an NQT for an appointment to complete induction could take a lifetime.
There are a number of opportunities in third tier hardship regions. The ME, China, Myanmar, Vietnam, the LCSA (Latin, Central and South America), etc. have ISs at lower tiers that will appoint without a credential. Even places like Thailand have low enough tier ISs where a degree is enough.
Review and evaluation type posts and requests are not permitted in the open forum. You would need to join as a paid member and make your request in the member forum.
Never really heard of GAA and they certainly dont have a lot of exposure in IE, but you never know there might be an IS thats really into it that would be excited about your application. Esoteric sports can be very hard to fill, I worked with an IS that was trying very hard to fill an equestrian vacancy in JP that had very high requirements and was very difficult and to a protracted amount of time to fill.
I would not advise trying to get as many coaching qualifications as you can, id focus on 1 or 2 popular and marketable ones football (soccer) and maybe volleyball will be fine. Boxing is extremely rare in IE, martial arts are more common, but usually in IE its offered as an ASP and most ISs would happily direct parents and students to a club association as opposed to combat sports then offer it even as an ASP.
There are just as many ITs in upper tier ISs with advanced degrees as there are ones without. Economically however its worth the coin to do an advance degree sooner rather than later. You can typically recoup the coin in costs/tuition in a fraction of the ITs total career earning potential. The subject of the degree doesnt matter though, and a Masters in Education in any concentration/focus will work for just about any IS at putting you on the higher salary band.
IE = International Education
DE = Domestic Education
DT = Domestic Teacher
IT = International Teacher
LH = Local Hire (the "s" in LHs is the plural form)
OSH = Over Seas Hire
CT = The US State abbreviation for Connecticut
BSO = British School Overseas
My experience in PE is that unless your a known pro athlete or you know people who could give you an appointment that waiting as an NQT for an appointment to complete induction could take a lifetime.
There are a number of opportunities in third tier hardship regions. The ME, China, Myanmar, Vietnam, the LCSA (Latin, Central and South America), etc. have ISs at lower tiers that will appoint without a credential. Even places like Thailand have low enough tier ISs where a degree is enough.
Review and evaluation type posts and requests are not permitted in the open forum. You would need to join as a paid member and make your request in the member forum.
Never really heard of GAA and they certainly dont have a lot of exposure in IE, but you never know there might be an IS thats really into it that would be excited about your application. Esoteric sports can be very hard to fill, I worked with an IS that was trying very hard to fill an equestrian vacancy in JP that had very high requirements and was very difficult and to a protracted amount of time to fill.
I would not advise trying to get as many coaching qualifications as you can, id focus on 1 or 2 popular and marketable ones football (soccer) and maybe volleyball will be fine. Boxing is extremely rare in IE, martial arts are more common, but usually in IE its offered as an ASP and most ISs would happily direct parents and students to a club association as opposed to combat sports then offer it even as an ASP.
There are just as many ITs in upper tier ISs with advanced degrees as there are ones without. Economically however its worth the coin to do an advance degree sooner rather than later. You can typically recoup the coin in costs/tuition in a fraction of the ITs total career earning potential. The subject of the degree doesnt matter though, and a Masters in Education in any concentration/focus will work for just about any IS at putting you on the higher salary band.
IE = International Education
DE = Domestic Education
DT = Domestic Teacher
IT = International Teacher
LH = Local Hire (the "s" in LHs is the plural form)
OSH = Over Seas Hire
CT = The US State abbreviation for Connecticut
BSO = British School Overseas
Re: Career Advice for Irish Guy? Please help
*Update: I have finished my degree with 1st class honors and will graduate in September. I have picked up football coaching certs and help coach a local underage team. I have found a school in Ireland who will accommodate me to fulfill the Teach now placement requirement. however, I have a few more questions before I decide to go through with it.
Can anyone confirm I don't need GCSE grade c in English and maths to transfer the D.C license to QTS? I have emailed the awarding authority and they won't tell me for sure. They just say to fill out an application and they will review it. The teach now representatives are advising me that I don't need them but they are effectively salespeople so I am conscious of that.
If I gain QTS and work abroad in any IS for a few years, if I return to England will I have to complete Induction as a newly qualified teacher or will my IS experience count and push me up on the payscales? I ask this because I will not be able to teach in Ireland as the teaching council has their own requirements to teach PE here. Also, my parents are aging and may need me to help care for them in the future. Therefore I would like to teach in England so I am reasonably close to them down the line.
Thanks
Can anyone confirm I don't need GCSE grade c in English and maths to transfer the D.C license to QTS? I have emailed the awarding authority and they won't tell me for sure. They just say to fill out an application and they will review it. The teach now representatives are advising me that I don't need them but they are effectively salespeople so I am conscious of that.
If I gain QTS and work abroad in any IS for a few years, if I return to England will I have to complete Induction as a newly qualified teacher or will my IS experience count and push me up on the payscales? I ask this because I will not be able to teach in Ireland as the teaching council has their own requirements to teach PE here. Also, my parents are aging and may need me to help care for them in the future. Therefore I would like to teach in England so I am reasonably close to them down the line.
Thanks
Reply
@Irish lad
They couldnt give you an answer, because they dont know. Your specific scenario has transitioned into the realm of 'maybe'. Too give you some background, in 2017 a US ACP (skills based credentialing program) proposed opening a branch office in England, with the aim of providing a US based credentialing program in England to English residents and candidates in UK maintained DSs and independent ISs and as OTTs (Overseas Trained Teachers) circumventing induction. It was determined by Dfe that such a venture would require registering as a domestic company and given the scope would no longer meet the definition of an overseas trained teacher, considering the training would be provided domestically in its entirety. It is possible and not improbable, that given you are a UK resident and completing your training in the UK (albeit in Ireland) that you will not meet the definition of an OTT, and thus would be required to meet academic benchmarks, such as the GCSE exam minimums (and including but not limited to the numeracy and literacy assessment).
However, currently that would be difficult for the TCL to enforce as the OTT application does not require transcripts or assessment reporting. This could change however over the course of the next year, it would be a relatively minor change to the application and evaluation process, though I am unaware of such a change currently being implemented or considered. Its probable that were the TCL made aware and more definitive guidance published, you could potentially be the test case. It could go either way, and I generally dont wager coin when the probabilities amount to a coin flip.
Once you receive the DC credential and then QTS (as an OTT), you will not be a NQT, you will receive full QTS and be exempted from induction.
As far as the MPS and UPS, aside from minimums and maximums its at the discretion of the hiring authority. They could give you step for your IE experience or they may not, its more likely if your IE experience is at a BS and even better (almost to the point of assurance) if its at a BSO. Its more likely if the IS is a upper tier IS and less likely if a lower tier IS, regardless of IS type (such as an IBWS or AS).
However, regardless of when or where you enter and exit IE you will still have full QTS, and will not be an NQT, nor would you have to successfully undergo induction at a later time.
They couldnt give you an answer, because they dont know. Your specific scenario has transitioned into the realm of 'maybe'. Too give you some background, in 2017 a US ACP (skills based credentialing program) proposed opening a branch office in England, with the aim of providing a US based credentialing program in England to English residents and candidates in UK maintained DSs and independent ISs and as OTTs (Overseas Trained Teachers) circumventing induction. It was determined by Dfe that such a venture would require registering as a domestic company and given the scope would no longer meet the definition of an overseas trained teacher, considering the training would be provided domestically in its entirety. It is possible and not improbable, that given you are a UK resident and completing your training in the UK (albeit in Ireland) that you will not meet the definition of an OTT, and thus would be required to meet academic benchmarks, such as the GCSE exam minimums (and including but not limited to the numeracy and literacy assessment).
However, currently that would be difficult for the TCL to enforce as the OTT application does not require transcripts or assessment reporting. This could change however over the course of the next year, it would be a relatively minor change to the application and evaluation process, though I am unaware of such a change currently being implemented or considered. Its probable that were the TCL made aware and more definitive guidance published, you could potentially be the test case. It could go either way, and I generally dont wager coin when the probabilities amount to a coin flip.
Once you receive the DC credential and then QTS (as an OTT), you will not be a NQT, you will receive full QTS and be exempted from induction.
As far as the MPS and UPS, aside from minimums and maximums its at the discretion of the hiring authority. They could give you step for your IE experience or they may not, its more likely if your IE experience is at a BS and even better (almost to the point of assurance) if its at a BSO. Its more likely if the IS is a upper tier IS and less likely if a lower tier IS, regardless of IS type (such as an IBWS or AS).
However, regardless of when or where you enter and exit IE you will still have full QTS, and will not be an NQT, nor would you have to successfully undergo induction at a later time.