Brexit and IT
Brexit and IT
With Brexit becoming more or less a reality and if British teachers would require a visa to work in Europe starting 2019, would that level the teaching field for non-EU teachers?
Re: Brexit and IT
The Americans and Canadians are welcome to the roles in Western Europe. You'll both soon learn it's not some great land of milk and honey, it's a land of hardship and misery.
The number of countries I'd consider in Europe could be counted on one hand, and all of them are in Eastern Europe.
The number of countries I'd consider in Europe could be counted on one hand, and all of them are in Eastern Europe.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Brexit and IT
That is, of course, your opinion. Others have a different view.
I would suspect that yes, it would level the playing field (UK vs. Canada, for example) in some respects, though of course the psychological change is slower (the subconscious preference for Brits over North Americans, for example, would remain). But of course a lot can happen in the coming years, and since Brexit will be a process and with global politics being what they are, we cannot really predict the future. We also don't know what the visa process will look like for Brits since those details are still in progress--will it be easier or harder compared to other non-Europeans? So I guess we will see, but theoretically, yes, the playing field would be leveled somewhat.
I would suspect that yes, it would level the playing field (UK vs. Canada, for example) in some respects, though of course the psychological change is slower (the subconscious preference for Brits over North Americans, for example, would remain). But of course a lot can happen in the coming years, and since Brexit will be a process and with global politics being what they are, we cannot really predict the future. We also don't know what the visa process will look like for Brits since those details are still in progress--will it be easier or harder compared to other non-Europeans? So I guess we will see, but theoretically, yes, the playing field would be leveled somewhat.
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Lastname_Z
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 pm
Re: Brexit and IT
I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of Warsaw).
Re: Brexit and IT
Lastname_Z wrote:
> I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit
> (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did
> my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only
> accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of
> Warsaw).
Which is technically illegal under EU employment law - you cannot give preference to non-EU citizens over EU ones for employment.
> I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit
> (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did
> my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only
> accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of
> Warsaw).
Which is technically illegal under EU employment law - you cannot give preference to non-EU citizens over EU ones for employment.
Re: Brexit and IT
Lastname_Z wrote:
> I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit
> (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did
> my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only
> accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of
> Warsaw).
Which is interesting, as although they say no EU passport holders on Search, they also claim to have 3 UK teachers and 30 host country teachers on staff. That makes at least 33 EU passport holders . .
> I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit
> (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did
> my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only
> accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of
> Warsaw).
Which is interesting, as although they say no EU passport holders on Search, they also claim to have 3 UK teachers and 30 host country teachers on staff. That makes at least 33 EU passport holders . .
Re: Brexit and IT
I wonder how Switzerland will react to this whole issue as they happen to hire Brits in large numbers.
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Lastname_Z
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 12:17 pm
Re: Brexit and IT
shadylane wrote:
> Lastname_Z wrote:
> > I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit
> > (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did
> > my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only
> > accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of
> > Warsaw).
>
> Which is interesting, as although they say no EU passport holders on Search, they
> also claim to have 3 UK teachers and 30 host country teachers on staff. That makes at
> least 33 EU passport holders . .
And they all are paid like a local Polish person, which is a pretty terrible salary. The non-EU passport holders are most likely paid more.
> Lastname_Z wrote:
> > I'm not sure having an EU passport is really that much of a benefit
> > (speaking as an EU passport holder and getting my EU passport before I did
> > my research). There are a lot of top schools in the EU countries that only
> > accept non-EU passport holders (Best example is the American School of
> > Warsaw).
>
> Which is interesting, as although they say no EU passport holders on Search, they
> also claim to have 3 UK teachers and 30 host country teachers on staff. That makes at
> least 33 EU passport holders . .
And they all are paid like a local Polish person, which is a pretty terrible salary. The non-EU passport holders are most likely paid more.
Response
I concur with @Thames Pirate, while it will technically make recruiting logistics equal in terms of the visa application process, its a more complicated system then just. We dont know what will happen with the UK. Scotland may try to exit and succeed from England this time and enter the EU. Northern Ireland may as well. There is also little at this stage to indicate what deals the UK will make with the rest of Europe. There is also the psychological and practical aspects that will take a much longer time to change if they do change in regard to a preference over British ITs over other western ITs. We arent going to see anything for a couple years, regardless.
That said the pragmatics are going to change, I see it more as its not going to be easier for other western ITs in regards to recruiting but will more accurately make issues more difficult for British ITs.
I strongly disagree with @Lastname_Z, having an EU passport makes recruiting as it is now a lot easier, there are many ISs in the EU that wont consider applicants without EU passports or working papers. Its true that the elite tier ISs do prefer hireling OS but they comprise a very, very, very small proportion of ISs.
@expatscot
True but how do you prosecute that kind of case, you have no evidence. They arent going to tell you they are openly discriminating. Youre just going to get the same generic form letter thanking you for your application, there were many high quality candidates, but on this occasion you have been unsuccessful, and that assumes you get anything at all.
@fine dude
I doubt it will change anything its not like there is an equivalent alternative. Those Swiss ISs would still rather do the paperwork for a Brit than an American, Canadian, or Australian.
That said the pragmatics are going to change, I see it more as its not going to be easier for other western ITs in regards to recruiting but will more accurately make issues more difficult for British ITs.
I strongly disagree with @Lastname_Z, having an EU passport makes recruiting as it is now a lot easier, there are many ISs in the EU that wont consider applicants without EU passports or working papers. Its true that the elite tier ISs do prefer hireling OS but they comprise a very, very, very small proportion of ISs.
@expatscot
True but how do you prosecute that kind of case, you have no evidence. They arent going to tell you they are openly discriminating. Youre just going to get the same generic form letter thanking you for your application, there were many high quality candidates, but on this occasion you have been unsuccessful, and that assumes you get anything at all.
@fine dude
I doubt it will change anything its not like there is an equivalent alternative. Those Swiss ISs would still rather do the paperwork for a Brit than an American, Canadian, or Australian.
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Amusing User Name
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:27 pm
Re: Brexit and IT
Psyguy, whether or not Scotland secedes from the United Kingdom, it is a near certainty that Spain will veto any bid for EU membership so as not to embolden Catalan separatists.
Reply
@Amusing User Name
Near certain is not certainty. Its not really relevant, even if Scotland doesnt join the EU by untieing themselves to England they get out from the cloud thats going to rain on England. Scotland will get better EEA deals on their own than attached to Engand.
Near certain is not certainty. Its not really relevant, even if Scotland doesnt join the EU by untieing themselves to England they get out from the cloud thats going to rain on England. Scotland will get better EEA deals on their own than attached to Engand.
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Amusing User Name
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:27 pm
Re: Brexit and IT
I always find it a good idea to couch my predictions in terms that reflect the degree of information I have, rather than making bald assertions of fact, helps me avoid looking like a disingenuous blowhard.
To address your point, by the same logic that Sturgeon is using that England is shooting itself in the foot by turning it's back on it's biggest trading partner (the EU), Scotland will do itself a disservice by introducing non-tariff barriers with its single biggest trading partner, England.
The EU is an amalgam of, often, fractious states. Offering favourable trade deals to countries such as Scotland would antagonise Spain (over the Catalan question), encourage more fractious member states to secede, and work against the EU's stated goal of "ever closer union".
To address your point, by the same logic that Sturgeon is using that England is shooting itself in the foot by turning it's back on it's biggest trading partner (the EU), Scotland will do itself a disservice by introducing non-tariff barriers with its single biggest trading partner, England.
The EU is an amalgam of, often, fractious states. Offering favourable trade deals to countries such as Scotland would antagonise Spain (over the Catalan question), encourage more fractious member states to secede, and work against the EU's stated goal of "ever closer union".
Reply
@Amusing User Name
I almost never use absolutes anymore (see what I did there), someone invariably comes along and points out some scenario where Im wrong.
That pathway though is reversible, if Scotland leaves and becomes an EEA (Spain cant stop it) then England will become Scotland's biggest trading partner by using Scotland to get to the one EU market.
Could go either way, this is the year of big stupid mistakes for government, so very little would surprise me.
Some countries would conclude that Spanish antagonization is worth it, never underestimate the power of greed.
I almost never use absolutes anymore (see what I did there), someone invariably comes along and points out some scenario where Im wrong.
That pathway though is reversible, if Scotland leaves and becomes an EEA (Spain cant stop it) then England will become Scotland's biggest trading partner by using Scotland to get to the one EU market.
Could go either way, this is the year of big stupid mistakes for government, so very little would surprise me.
Some countries would conclude that Spanish antagonization is worth it, never underestimate the power of greed.
Re: Brexit and IT
I have this debate regularly with a friend of mine...
Spain is not in a position to negotiate Scotland's entry - if France and Germany see some benefit to the EU in Scotland joining, then it will happen. Even Spain acknowledges this now - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-join-eu
Spain is not in a position to negotiate Scotland's entry - if France and Germany see some benefit to the EU in Scotland joining, then it will happen. Even Spain acknowledges this now - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-join-eu
Discussion
The EU desperately wants Scotland as an EU member, while not wanting to upset England (and why they always dent it publicly), but an independent Scotland in the EU will be a backdoor to a post BrExit UK.