Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you answer?

Thames Pirate
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Re: Reply

Post by Thames Pirate »

PsyGuy wrote:

>
> 6.2%+1.45%=7.65% on a $50K salary thats $3,825
> Add the $5633.75+$3,825=$9458.75, subtract from the $50,000 salary and you
> have net after tax salary of $40541.25, over $10K above the $30K @Joe30
> claims.
>
> Id still endorse the $44K because @Joe30 is adding healthcare (NHI) in the
> UK and many DSs in the US would provide their employee a medical insurance
> policy at no cost as part of their benefits. Social Security and Medicare
> is more retirement/pension than medical insurance. In addition social
> security taxes are pre-tax deductions so you wouldnt pay income tax on the
> SS deductions, further lowering your tax liability.


Wait, so now we are adding back in benefits? I thought we were talking about take home salary. On 50K, you are taking home 36-39K after state taxes--and the figures you ran are probably pretty accurate there for federal taxes (you got 40K, so I was pretty much right on with my estimates). Obviously there are tons of factors, but the reality is that both your numbers (about 40K before state taxes) and everyone else's come out to less than the 44K you originally cited. But if we are adding back benefits like healthcare to net income, suddenly WE packages seem much more attractive.


>
> If you can identify some error in the calculations or source material,
> please elaborate, otherwise theres the data.

> So yes without social security and medicare (assuming you have a state
> pension that you dont have to contribute too) than yes your net would be
> about $44k, with social security and medicare the net take home is still
> over $40K.

Which is basically what the rest of us said--though of course that is before state taxes!

I guess I am confused at your point that net is 44K when it clearly isn't. But whatever. The discussion has been derailed enough.
PsyGuy
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

You are assuming that there are state taxes, there are several states where there are no state taxes. You included in your calculation a tax factor that isnt a necessity.
$44K is what your take home salary would be with just federal taxes. Again, there are states that there are no state taxes, and there are States where DTs dont pay into Social Security and Medicare. So that isnt a requirement either, hence no you could potentially take home $44K in salary. Actually you could claim "exempt" and take home all of it, but you'd have a tax bill to pay at the end of the year. So no @Thames Pirate the reality is you could reasonably have a take home salary as I cited of $44K on a $50K salary, which is about an 11% tax rate

I actually stated it first, but again your requiring that State taxes must be paid and thats simply not true in all states. $44k or $40K its still over $10K more than the $30K that @Joe30 claimed

It clearly can be $44K, neither state taxes or social security medicaid are a requirement in all scenarios. Why this is unclear to you, is something you will have to determine.
Psychometrika
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by Psychometrika »

As someone who lives in NH (no state income or general sales tax) and has lived in TX, trust me when I say there is no such thing as a free lunch. These states still need to balance the budget and the revenues still need to come from somewhere. In fact, since income taxes are generally designed to be progressive, lower income folks (you know, like some teachers) tend to be worse off in these places as whatever replaces the income tax tends to be relatively regressive. As such, you can't really ignore state taxes when calculating net income.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Psychometrika

Yes we really can ignore whatever regressive government revenue stream or implementation which you dont describe, as the topic as @Joe30 described is concerned with net tax take home salary. Everything that comes after it hits your bank account or pocket is immaterial.
joe30
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by joe30 »

The student loan coin might hit your bank account technically in the US, but can't they pull your licence if you don't pay it and refuse to issue a new passport? Meaning in reality, you do have to pay it as a DT. It's not like a credit card bill where you can stick 2 fingers up to the company and, providing you don't have any tangible assets, there's really not a lot they can do beyond write you nasty letters and trash your credit rating.

Or am I thinking of Child Support money instead? I might be, because I know you can certainly get your passport denied/professional licenses pulled for that.

When I spoke of the 'average American', I meant the average American across all jobs and careers, not teaching (since we're evaluating IT relative to other careers and not just DT, this makes sense to me). What does Mr Average American get as takehome after all his taxes are paid? Maybe it is $40k. If we go with that figure instead of my $30k (which does seem far too low now, although $44k seems to require a very specific set of circumstances) then you could still say that most IT's are no worse off than the average American. $35k+$5k value on the accommodation would be a very standard package.

So my conclusion is ultimately the same. It's a mid tier career, and isn't a bad option for average people. It's a bad option for the very talented, unless they desperately want to leave their home country and are willing to take a financial hit to do so.

This seems to align with what I've seen in the workplace too. Teachers are generally of around average intelligence, possessing no truly significant talents nor extreme deficiencies. They thus get average careers and average levels of money.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by Thames Pirate »

Take home implies taking it home, but since Soc Sec etc. are taken out automatically, you do t actually take it home. So you are not actually talking about take home, but about pay minus federal taxes. I understand you now.
interteach
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by interteach »

Going back to the original question yes it is still a career but it's hard and always has been.

Back when there was a much smaller number of international schools they were staffed by something of an elite corps of teachers at by and large excellent schools where they taught Western kids whose parents were largely expat upper middle class executives, most of whom couldn't believe their luck. It was hard to get a job, especially the first one. But once you were in the system it wasn't too hard to stay as long as you were a dedicated professional.

Globalization made a foreign or IB high school diploma a commodity along with a college degree from an English-speaking country. International schools exploded in number and the quality of schools, education and compensation ranged from excellent to dire. It also became easier to get jobs with the advent of the internet.

It can be a career, but it tends to work out as one for those who are talented teachers willing to put in the time due to their dedication. There are still schools where it's possible to make enough to have a viable career, as long as you have the financial discipline to save. But the number of positions are still small and they tend to go to strong professionals who also have the luck to be in the right place at the right time. It's still hard.

The days of teaching native English speakers from native English speaking countries overseas are basically gone and they are unlikely to come back. Host country kids going to international schools tend to be much wealthier than way back and that changes the job. But there is room for strong teachers at strong schools, but the supply remains limited and teachers now have a lot more terrible schools where they might end up. Judgment is important as is patience. And it's always been that way. What's changed is the path, which for many means starting at a bad school and seeing if it's possible to move forward and up. It also means a lot of teachers who are less than serious about teaching and more interested in travel. So yes, it's possible, but it's just as difficult as it has been in the past. Only the obstacles have changed.
joe30
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by joe30 »

@Interteach

I'd rather have a supply pool of 10 great schools, 20 middling schools and 50 bad schools than just a pool of 10 great schools. It means if you're good/experienced enough to get into one of the 10 good schools you still can, while there's also options for those who are not as good or experienced. This really should suit everybody - hard workers who live to teach, those who are happy being average, and those who are just in it for the paycheck and the travel. Now there's a school out there for everyone, rather than just the guys at the top.
senator
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by senator »

Wow. Is this thread still alive?
PsyGuy
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Disussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Not every DT pays Social Security/Medicare, hence no deduction.

@interteach

Thats not entirely true. The requirement was more about a candidates suitability for hardship and flexibility more so than competence and mastery. These were very difficult posts, well before globalization places like China and other parts of Asia had virtually nothing. Families were frowned upon, single ITs were the preference, both men and woman.

Did they become elite ITs, there were certainly ITs who showcased excellence, but there was also a signifigant population that was getting by, "Progressive" meds/peds was still very much focused on rote learning and direct teach. Most of the students were indeed executives on an expat package and embassy kids, butt his also resulted in much smaller ISs and infrastructure. This was still a time when sending a child off to boarding IS was a viable and popular option. very true though that once you were in the circle, you could move around within it, and leadership would often go to unheard of lengths now to keep an IT, the cost of recruiting was just so high.

Global networking essentially destroyed the concept of a recruiter in IE, recruiters dont recruit anymore they are just database gatekeepers.
Not a whole lot of growth happened in the upper tiers, and even now many rest on their laurels.

I generally find the workload has shifted to the point that ITs work less than DTs. The types of tasking have changed and re-balanced themselves, an IT spends a lot less time in production than a DT does for example.

Saving isnt an issue in regions with strong social insurance programs.

We strongly agree on the last portion. IE has essentially evolved to be IDE (Imported Domestic Education), thats how a lot of these regions do business, they take something valuable and copy it. The result is that when there was a better balance of distribution across tiers, ITs could have stronger reliance on moving up, where no we are seeing an exponential increase in stagnation, where movement is within a tier and ITs are either giving up or remaining within tiers for much longer.

@joe30

That type of distribution would be nice, but it isnt the case, its closer to 5 Great ISs, 10 Good ISs and 150 Bad ISs and thats being generous. This greatly increases demand for ITs (to fill those bad ISs) but than chokes too the point of strangulation any movement up to other tiers from the bad ISs.

@senator

It would seem so.
joe30
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by joe30 »

@Psyguy

But that distribution is still better than just having 5 great and 10 good IS's. Now there's a school out there to suit all competence levels.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by Thames Pirate »

Sure, if they live in California, for example, where they have a state equivalent (not to mention state taxes). But in general, they do.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Also Texas where they dont have Social Security (there is a state pension that DTs contribute to) and they dont have state taxes. there are also private/independent DSs that provide Dts a pension scheme without DT contributions and again without state taxes.

Generally i agree, but it doesnt change the accuracy that its possible to take home $44K on a $50K salary. You can avoid social security, you can avoid state taxes and you can avoid student loans.

Even if we allow for the deduction of some kind of pension retirement scheme the take home salary is around $41K, still more than your $36K-$39K and about $10K higher than @joe30 claimed.
jschott
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by jschott »

I left international teaching about 25 years ago to work in IT. I didn't want to leave teaching; it's just that my girlfriend brought us back to the U.S. because of her job. The dot-com revolution was just picking up steam. I had computer skills. The transition brought me 2.5x my teaching salary immediately and kept going higher. Headhunters called me several times per month to try to lure me to another company with more pay. I wanted to return to international teaching every year, but the economics did not make sense, and it sure was nice to be in a field where employers would fight over you, as opposed to the teaching field, where even then you had to really bust it to get a job.

Now I'm looking to get back into international teaching because I no longer have to worry about securing my future, but I'm sensing that indeed teachers have become commodities, even more so than they were. The supply-demand equation is tilted grossly against teachers and has been for decades. Put another way, there are too many willing to work in this field--and for peanuts.

The reasons, I suspect, have something to do with the fact that meaningful work these days, in the age of automation and information age factories, is rare. People are willing to work for next-to-nothing to have meaningful lives. Also, working conditions for teachers in the U.S. are poor, and the word is out about international teaching. It used to be the best kept secret among educators, I felt. No more.
thebeard
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Re: Is this really a career anymore? Economists, can you ans

Post by thebeard »

A new report just came out showing that up to 47% of occupations could be at risk of being replaced because of artificial intelligence. I'm by no means an economist but I'm guessing this could have some affect on the teaching profession. If Devos is successful in pushing more "school choice" I'm guessing that more teachers/more competition would be coming overseas. Again I'm no economist and have no data but I think it will have an affect.

https://arstechnica.com/business/2016/1 ... o-decades/
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