Salary Scale
Salary Scale
I have always wondered if having a salary scale based on seniority in schools makes sense, especially after you cross the 10 year experience threshold. Some of my senior colleagues student results aren't even that great, but they continue to draw fat checks and they hardly volunteer for anything outside their teaching domain.
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Salary Scale
Debatable, but what are the other options? You often hear talk about tying salaries to student results but the devil is in the details. How can that possibly done with any kind of equity? With so many factors outside of a teacher's control they could be a great teacher who works their butt off but is stuck at the same rate of pay for years.
Even at a school like yours I would presume that results can vary due to many factors, including a mediocre teacher or a good one that is phoning it in. But I would also think that results (or lack thereof) could be manipulated in many schools by whoever manages the admissions, whoever is in control of classroom assignments and other factors that could have a direct impact on results but may be totally out of the control of the teacher.
Or in the case of teachers whose subject/teaching success is not so easily measured, how would they earn their next step up the ladder (I teach SPED so that could apply to me I suppose).
So, I would be interested in hearing about merit pay and/or other systems of teacher pay scales but admit that I would deeply skeptical of how it could be guaranteed to be fair and immune from nepotism, bullying admin, etc.
Even at a school like yours I would presume that results can vary due to many factors, including a mediocre teacher or a good one that is phoning it in. But I would also think that results (or lack thereof) could be manipulated in many schools by whoever manages the admissions, whoever is in control of classroom assignments and other factors that could have a direct impact on results but may be totally out of the control of the teacher.
Or in the case of teachers whose subject/teaching success is not so easily measured, how would they earn their next step up the ladder (I teach SPED so that could apply to me I suppose).
So, I would be interested in hearing about merit pay and/or other systems of teacher pay scales but admit that I would deeply skeptical of how it could be guaranteed to be fair and immune from nepotism, bullying admin, etc.
Re: Salary Scale
I'm generally against the idea of performance based based because I don't like to do much work.
-
chilagringa
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:19 pm
Re: Salary Scale
A couple things to think about:
First, what tier of school do you work at? I'm guessing that at lower-tier schools a lot of the older teachers are lousy because if they were any good they would have moved somewhere better. Even at my school, tier one for the region but in Latin America so the pay isn't great, the older teachers that we do have often tend to be mediocre, because the best teachers tend to leave eventually to high paying schools in other parts of the world.
Second, many highly experienced teachers might SEEM to have phoned it in are just super relaxed and have everything figured out. I remember my mentor teacher back in my teacher ed program seemed like she didn't give a crap because she never stayed late or seemed stressed. But if you saw her in the classroom, man was she amazing! And her students did really well. I guess if students AREN'T doing well that point doesn't apply though, but that would depend on what tests you are talking about, as some are good and some standardized ones are total BS.
Finally, even if you are right and a lot of experienced teachers are lousy, it seems like a matter of necessity to offer seniority pay. I mean, who is going to want to work somewhere they weren't going to go up a salary scale? Certainly not me. That would be a total deal breaker for me, because I want to increase my savings every year, and I'm also dubious of the whole idea of merit pay to begin with, for some of the reasons wrldtrvlr said.
First, what tier of school do you work at? I'm guessing that at lower-tier schools a lot of the older teachers are lousy because if they were any good they would have moved somewhere better. Even at my school, tier one for the region but in Latin America so the pay isn't great, the older teachers that we do have often tend to be mediocre, because the best teachers tend to leave eventually to high paying schools in other parts of the world.
Second, many highly experienced teachers might SEEM to have phoned it in are just super relaxed and have everything figured out. I remember my mentor teacher back in my teacher ed program seemed like she didn't give a crap because she never stayed late or seemed stressed. But if you saw her in the classroom, man was she amazing! And her students did really well. I guess if students AREN'T doing well that point doesn't apply though, but that would depend on what tests you are talking about, as some are good and some standardized ones are total BS.
Finally, even if you are right and a lot of experienced teachers are lousy, it seems like a matter of necessity to offer seniority pay. I mean, who is going to want to work somewhere they weren't going to go up a salary scale? Certainly not me. That would be a total deal breaker for me, because I want to increase my savings every year, and I'm also dubious of the whole idea of merit pay to begin with, for some of the reasons wrldtrvlr said.
-
helloiswill
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:39 am
Re: Salary Scale
This is a pretty contentious issue here in The States. I happen to think pay raises based solely on seniority is not the best model. IMO salary should increase based upon a blend of merit and experience. Here in North Carolina, many schools have opportunities for teachers to take on greater responsibility in a coordinator/teacher type of role (called a multi-classroom leader) that comes along with a 10k -20k bump in your salary at the end of the year that is tied to the academic gains your students make. I like this system because it allows great teachers to affect larger groups of students without moving into admin. However, there are only 4 MCL's at my school and we have close to 60 teachers on staff, so it's very competitive. However, North Carolina does not reward experience enough, someone who as been teaching for 20 years only makes 10k more than I do.
-
wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Salary Scale
helloiswill wrote:
> This is a pretty contentious issue here in The States. I happen to think
> pay raises based solely on seniority is not the best model. IMO salary
> should increase based upon a blend of merit and experience. Here in North
> Carolina, many schools have opportunities for teachers to take on greater
> responsibility in a coordinator/teacher type of role (called a
> multi-classroom leader) that comes along with a 10k -20k bump in your
> salary at the end of the year that is tied to the academic gains your
> students make. I like this system because it allows great teachers to
> affect larger groups of students without moving into admin. However, there
> are only 4 MCL's at my school and we have close to 60 teachers on staff, so
> it's very competitive. However, North Carolina does not reward experience
> enough, someone who as been teaching for 20 years only makes 10k more than
> I do.
=================
That sounds interesting but I would have some of the same reservations. How do you ensure that those roles go to great teachers and not just the favorite teachers/yes men of the ones doing the hiring (since we all know the best teachers certainly don't seem to go into admin, in many cases)? Also, many teachers do not want to have to take on coordinator duties in order to increase there salary.
But it is good that there is the possibility for those who do want to more outside of their classroom, short of going into admin.
> This is a pretty contentious issue here in The States. I happen to think
> pay raises based solely on seniority is not the best model. IMO salary
> should increase based upon a blend of merit and experience. Here in North
> Carolina, many schools have opportunities for teachers to take on greater
> responsibility in a coordinator/teacher type of role (called a
> multi-classroom leader) that comes along with a 10k -20k bump in your
> salary at the end of the year that is tied to the academic gains your
> students make. I like this system because it allows great teachers to
> affect larger groups of students without moving into admin. However, there
> are only 4 MCL's at my school and we have close to 60 teachers on staff, so
> it's very competitive. However, North Carolina does not reward experience
> enough, someone who as been teaching for 20 years only makes 10k more than
> I do.
=================
That sounds interesting but I would have some of the same reservations. How do you ensure that those roles go to great teachers and not just the favorite teachers/yes men of the ones doing the hiring (since we all know the best teachers certainly don't seem to go into admin, in many cases)? Also, many teachers do not want to have to take on coordinator duties in order to increase there salary.
But it is good that there is the possibility for those who do want to more outside of their classroom, short of going into admin.
Response
Looking at some of the alternatives that have been proposed and tried:
1) Equity Scale: In this scheme salary is determined by job title and tasks. Essentially there is no salary scale, ITs do the same job and get paid the same coin. These are ISs that generally have very relaxed work environments and offer tenure type protections.
2) Titled Scale: This system modeled after the Uni system has varying levels of title in a hierarchy, such as Junior IT, Senior IT, Lead IT, etc. These titles and advancement are determined by leadership/ownership in various ways. They tend to reinforce political and social factors among faculty, staff and leadership.
3) Grouped Scale: In these schemes salary increases occur at certain experience points, typically 1, 2, 5, and 8 years of experience, or other milestones. The increases are essentially larger but with less frequency.
4) Value Add Scale: Instead of simple time/years ITs have to show demonstrate their contributions and participation in professional development, typically using some form of formula is used that produces a score and whether an IT progresses to the next step on the salary scale.
5) Performance Scale: As most DTs and ITs are familiar with this is salary based on student performance. However achievement based salary is becoming more common that include factors other than assessment data. One of the primary issues with performance based salary is as mentioned above certain subject areas are difficult to assess such as enrichment subjects or academic subjects. An IS would likely have to task a member of leadership to develop unique performance assessments. The other primary issue is the lack of assessment at many age levels in IE and the increased cost of such assessments.
The experience ladder scale used in the majority of ISs doesnt actually reward increased levels of experience it punishes ITs for decreased levels of experience, and is an easy and inexpensive approach of creating deficiencies and cause for offering less coin to ITs.
1) Equity Scale: In this scheme salary is determined by job title and tasks. Essentially there is no salary scale, ITs do the same job and get paid the same coin. These are ISs that generally have very relaxed work environments and offer tenure type protections.
2) Titled Scale: This system modeled after the Uni system has varying levels of title in a hierarchy, such as Junior IT, Senior IT, Lead IT, etc. These titles and advancement are determined by leadership/ownership in various ways. They tend to reinforce political and social factors among faculty, staff and leadership.
3) Grouped Scale: In these schemes salary increases occur at certain experience points, typically 1, 2, 5, and 8 years of experience, or other milestones. The increases are essentially larger but with less frequency.
4) Value Add Scale: Instead of simple time/years ITs have to show demonstrate their contributions and participation in professional development, typically using some form of formula is used that produces a score and whether an IT progresses to the next step on the salary scale.
5) Performance Scale: As most DTs and ITs are familiar with this is salary based on student performance. However achievement based salary is becoming more common that include factors other than assessment data. One of the primary issues with performance based salary is as mentioned above certain subject areas are difficult to assess such as enrichment subjects or academic subjects. An IS would likely have to task a member of leadership to develop unique performance assessments. The other primary issue is the lack of assessment at many age levels in IE and the increased cost of such assessments.
The experience ladder scale used in the majority of ISs doesnt actually reward increased levels of experience it punishes ITs for decreased levels of experience, and is an easy and inexpensive approach of creating deficiencies and cause for offering less coin to ITs.
-
helloiswill
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:39 am
Re: Salary Scale
@wrldtrvlr123
"That sounds interesting but I would have some of the same reservations. How do you ensure that those roles go to great teachers and not just the favorite teachers/yes men of the ones doing the hiring (since we all know the best teachers certainly don't seem to go into admin, in many cases)? Also, many teachers do not want to have to take on coordinator duties in order to increase there salary"
Teachers apply for the roles but are only allowed to take on the position if they demonstrate significant student growth over 3 -5 years (or something in that ballpark) as measured by a teacher value-added system. Most of the MCL's I have worked with have been very competent -- one has not been. Some use it as a stepping stone between the classroom and admin but other genuinely want to stay as close to the classroom as possible. MCLs spend most of their day teaching despite their other roles and this is attractive to a lot of educators. Here is a link if your are interested in reading more. Towards the bottom of the page they list some of the new blended classroom/admin positions that are available.
http://www.projectliftcharlotte.org/opportunity-culture
"That sounds interesting but I would have some of the same reservations. How do you ensure that those roles go to great teachers and not just the favorite teachers/yes men of the ones doing the hiring (since we all know the best teachers certainly don't seem to go into admin, in many cases)? Also, many teachers do not want to have to take on coordinator duties in order to increase there salary"
Teachers apply for the roles but are only allowed to take on the position if they demonstrate significant student growth over 3 -5 years (or something in that ballpark) as measured by a teacher value-added system. Most of the MCL's I have worked with have been very competent -- one has not been. Some use it as a stepping stone between the classroom and admin but other genuinely want to stay as close to the classroom as possible. MCLs spend most of their day teaching despite their other roles and this is attractive to a lot of educators. Here is a link if your are interested in reading more. Towards the bottom of the page they list some of the new blended classroom/admin positions that are available.
http://www.projectliftcharlotte.org/opportunity-culture