Make-Up Days

Teach1010
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:25 am

Make-Up Days

Post by Teach1010 »

I've looked at a lot of IS calendars, mostly because I'm interested in schools that have a break calendar that closely matches the school calendar that my family would have back in the States. I can only think of one school that had days built into the calendar as make-up days for when school could be cancelled for weather or other unforeseen circumstances. In the U.S., we ALWAYS make up the days we miss even if it means shortening summer break. Is that not a common practice in ISs or do they just not denote it on their calendars? I'm interested in some schools in the Philippines, but I know there will be typhoons and floods that could cause school to be cancelled. I don't want to sign on to a school thinking their calendar matches my family back home only to find that I end up having to make up weather days late into the summer. In general, do most ISs expect the days to be make up at the end of the year or are snow/flood/weather days just days off?
PsyGuy
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Response

Post by PsyGuy »

The difference is that in IE you are mostly working at a private/independent system, they have no legal mandate to provide a certain number of instructional days, unlike in a municipal public/maintained DS that requires a minimum number of days of instruction.
ISs generally dont extend their calendars, staff are contracted for and too a certain date only.
shadowjack
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by shadowjack »

I have been at IS' that had makeup days, and IS' that didn't. It all depends on the school. If a school has a mandated 1XX number of days in your contract, legally they can make you honour that contract. Many schools now have language that alludes to this and gives the school an out, in case of such a scenario. At the same time, I remember when my school was closed by fear of H1N1 - we offered online classes and support and didn't have to make up the two weeks we were shut down by government order.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@SJ

Its an issue of political currency, both as a faculty and individuality. Some ITs will make an issue of it, and they are on the way out they arent making up a few days. The other half of that coin is the IT that isnt going to make an issue of a couple days to keep leadership happy when they werent planing on doing anything those days anyway, or if those days were PD days. Aggregate those for an entire faculty, everyone did there 2 and revolves out, has travel plans and there arent going to be makeup days. Upper tier IS and everyone is well fed and content and they were work days anyway, sure some play lessons for those last couple make up days wont sweat anyone.
sid
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by sid »

Few IS have built-in make-up days.
Few will make the effort to make up if just a couple of days are lost.
However, sometimes too much time is lost, and/or the school has its own bylaws, IB requirements (MYP or DP) or local country requirements that a certain number of days/hours must be achieved. Then the schools must make up the time.
Many IS lost time due to H1N1. My own school lost a week by government mandate, and we did not make it up. However, the IS down the road did, due to their own bylaws requiring x number of school days. Despite the bylaws, there were no built-in make-up days in their calendar, as they had had no reason to expect losing any school days at all (this was in a country without snow/ice, without the pollution that sometimes causes China to shut schools, without the political unrest that sometimes leads to country-wide shutdowns, etc). So they just added in the days at the end of the year, and changed their school calendar.
This is really, really rare, but it does happen. If it does, you'll have to roll with it. Contracts may specify a certain number of teaching days, or that you work according to the school calendar, or they may say nothing specific about work days, but in any case, you're bound. If you're contracted to x school days, than if some planned days are lost, you're bound to the make-up days. If you're contracted to the calendar, than you're bound even if the school changes the calendar.
As for the realities of it, they can indeed be difficult. Any changes to the school calendar, like adding days on the end of the year, need to be done early and loudly if the school is to expect success. Once you get past January or February, you're going to have an increasing number of people (staff as well as students) who have already booked flights. Of course, a school doesn't have to care (harsh but true) about staff's booked reservations. A smart school will choose to care, but if they need to run school later into June, they need to do it whether or not you have a flight booked. They may offer to pay your change fee (or not), but in the end they'll require you to be there.
Really, really rare.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

I strongly disagree with @Sid, most of his positions are bunk, but they are congruent with the leadership line. Bylaws are meaningless. They were decisions created by ownership, and they can be altered, modified, changed, discarded by ownership. They are as meaningful as the ability to get a small group of people together to take a vote. An Is has 190 days "mandated" by bylaws, but they only had 180 days, all the IS has to do is have ownership vote to change those bylaws.
Rarely is an independent IS required to adhere to a minimum days of instruction, as there is a LOT of flexibility. Even if the IS has to make up the time it doesnt impose a burden on faculty, its the ISs and ownerships obligation not the faculty. You dont "have to" roll with anything. Again, its an issue of political currency, if your staying and are a long term IT, and its just a few days and its during PD days, it might not be worth it to make an issue of it. If your on your way out, have plans, there isnt anything you have to do. Nod your head, dont show up and tell leadership to kick rocks, or use sick leave, etc. if you want to be polite.
Its far less common for an IS to dictate a minimum number of days of service, its far more common that the contract specifies a start and end date, and you have ZERO obligation to work past the end date, you dont even have to consider it for additional comp.
Additionally it really depends what you did during those missed days. If you did nothing you may owe them but if you did online lessons, sent worksheets and communicated with students even from home, you worked that day.

The only issue @Sid and I agree on is that this is really, really rare you could go an entire career and never have this as an issue.
mamava
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by mamava »

In the schools I've worked at, the number of days was set by the board and the expectation was adhered to. In China (we were post H1N1) we closed school once or twice during my time there for snow/ice. The board did not require us to make up those days. When the H1N1 hit, it was a bigger problem for schools to figure out how much time can be missed. Obviously the IB and AP programs are on a pace to deliver x amount of material by x date to prepare for exams, and that impacts things.

In my current school, we don't have a "cancelled day" policy that I'm aware of because we don't have conditions (weather, legal, political, etc.) that would warrant it. Something that would come up that might necessitate a day or so closed could be absorbed.

When I was in Saudi, school could be closed arbitrarily by the King. We lost a week because there was heavy rain in one part of the country and the threat of more rain meant that all schools had to be closed. Twice we were required to send students home early because of wind storms. Add to the possibility of political unrest or issues that might require evacuation (bombings, terrorism) and the school had to have a plan. We had a "virtual school" system where we would have to deliver content online if something happened. Students were required to log in and work, teachers had to be available by email or phone, etc. Not perfect by any means and I'd hate to have to do it long-term, but it did provide some work to qualify a school day.
sid
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by sid »

It is very interesting that PG suggests that a departing teacher simply depart when they wish. True, one can vote with their feet, but do recognize that this can be legally be construed as quitting. Quitting is not recommended. Most contracts, contrary to what PG implies, carry on for a month or so AFTER the last teaching day. If you finish the teaching year, you get paid to the end. If you quit (and leaving the country never to return certainly seems a pretty definitive quit, hard to pass off as a sick day), the school is not obligated to pay you past your last working day. You could lose all sorts of benefits like end of service bonus, etc. Ouch.
PG accuses right in that I am a leader. But I'm not advocating the harsh tactics above - I'm putting them out there as a possibility, something to consider before taking a possibly ill-advised step. I hope that some people appreciate seeing a fuller picture, seeing things from multiple viewpoints, or possibly just appreciate a warning of what the worst case might be.
Quite different from seeing what COULD happen, I have a personal leadership perspective about what SHOULD happen. It's much better if the school does the responsible thing by not changing calendars wily-nily, by giving lots of advance notice if it has to change a calendar, by offering to pay change fees for teachers who have already booked flights, and by working with individuals who have special circumstances (like a sister's wedding planned around the original calendar). Leaders should work hard to do the right thing as best they can. So should teachers. If we all try our best, and all communicate with each other, these things can be worked out pretty well. Leadership and teachers do not need to be adversarial.

Oh, and while it is true that a Board or owners can change their bylaws, that doesn't mean they will or even should.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by Thames Pirate »

Sid, is the bigger concern teachers booking a flight out or students? If you did have to tack on a few days, which group do you think less likely to show up? Obviously if your school is mostly locals, that would be teachers, but at a truly international school My experience in DS was that the year we did have makeup days that brought everyone back on Monday and Tuesday, many of our students didn't show up, and I know many of our families leave for non-summer holidays (spring break, etc.) the day break starts. Thoughts on that?

Also, as an administrator, would you look into other alternatives before extending the year? Our district once avoided makeup days by turning two teacher workdays into student days, thus ensuring our minimum. My university once scheduled two Saturdays as make-up days after several hurricanes and subsequent flooding hit the area, though of course most individual professors cancelled the classes. Also, how lenient would you be if a teacher's flight out was to attend a crucial event such as a wedding that was scheduled specifically for the IT to attend? Obviously things are on a case-by-case basis, but are these things you would take into consideration?

Just wanting to get some admin perspective. Thanks!
interteach
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Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm

Re: Make-Up Days

Post by interteach »

Per usual PsyCho is more interested in the number of posts he makes than being factual.

US accredited schools must have a certain number of contact days. IB schools must meet a certain number of instructional hours. The majority of international schools will find some way to make up for a lost day due to closure. I have never worked at one that didn't, ranging from a real bottom of the barrel scraper to a few of the hardest to get hired by.

I suppose if it's a proprietary school that only does Cambridge exams you might get away with it, but you're asking for trouble otherwise.
sid
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by sid »

Schools don't always make up lost days. Last year we lost three by government mandate, and we were able to just absorb them. Of course, we're in a country where we can predict losing a few days, so we build a calendar that can absorb a couple.
The first and best option is to find some solution that leaves the calendar basically intact. A canceled inservice turns into a teaching day. A three day weekend disappears. (Sorry, but it's better than June.) Or just absorb. It's often ply. But if you can, leave the calendar alone. It's always easier.
In my experience, kids skip out far more than teachers. Teachers are overall responsible and professional and they get the job done. I don't like that kids skip, but the bigger truth is that school can proceed with less students, while we need almost all teachers to keep it running.
And if it's my decision, you'll get to your sisters wedding on time.
Thames Pirate
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by Thames Pirate »

Thanks! That is basically what I had expected for pretty much all questions and lines up with my experiences.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Sid

Your premise is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that an IT has a contract that carries over or beyond the last day of teaching and that this length of time is a month longer. Of course if your contract hasnt ended, your contract hasnt ended yet. Dont make flight arrangements until your contract ends. The issue that @Sid is avoiding is that when a contract ends it somehow doesnt end if leadership says it doesnt, which is entirely bunk.
Further, what other type of quitting is there, is the implication that there is some form of indentured servitude? An IT can pretty much quit anytime they want to.
Yes, you could lose those end of service benefits assuming there are any, and they are worth something to you. The largest benefit would be flights out, but yif your leaving an already have firm travel arrangements and the IS isnt willing to pay to fix them, then staying costs you more than leaving, in which case there is no benefit to staying. Further, what @Sid doesnt realize is the other costs, if you are on an allowance and have your own housing, and have already given notice staying may mean not having somewhere to live, as the property owner may already have new tenants moving in. Then what, the IS isnt helping you with your flight, they arent going to help you with living arrangements either.
You get paid for your full contract if you finish your contract, the issue is if you stay beyond your contract. The IT has already been paid in full.
No, what @Sid is advocating is that leadership and ownership have some type of right the expands beyond the contract, that a rare scenario such as this is somehow the obligation of the IT to fix. It isnt, its the ISs problem not the ITs. So many ISs believe that their faculty is the solution to all their problems. It isnt. No IT owes leadership anything beyond their contracted obligation.
Why should the IT with the sisters wedding supersede the IT who just wants to hit the beach when they planed to, how is IT As time superior than IT Bs time? Its not. Its the same "family" phenomenon you see in IE and DE all the time, those without family obligations end up being assigned the poo work, because the family ITs have kids, etc.. they have to take care of. Which is an extension of the leadership philosophy that ITs need to be martyrs, that they should give up their own time and plans for the good of the IS and the students. Its not, teaching is a job, its an exchange of service for compensation, its a business transaction. ITs owe nothing more than what they contracted for.
It doesnt mean they dont change their bylaws when it suits them to do so.

@Thames Pirate

It depends on the nature of the faculty and the IS. A lot of third tier ISs where ITs do the two year revolving door and the location is a hardship one, with more than just a couple days of makeup. The IS would be a ghost town, students and faculty would be absent in large numbers. Moving up the tier, the dynamic changes, you would see more students absent rather than staff, considering that IS would likely have lower turnover.

Some leadership would look into alternatives, thats the ideal, but most ISs especially in the third tier are neither ideal ISs not ideal leadership. The most significant factor is the composition of leadership. If you have western leadership you are more likely to get something that at least sounds fair. If you have host native leadership it might be unimaginable to their mentality that holiday would be considered more important than work.

Thats part of the problem, nothing should be on a case by case basis. ISs arent dictatorships.

@interteach

Absolute bunk, accreditation standards are based on hours not days. Further the issue is trivial, ISs dont have 180 days worth of instruction and plan their calenders for 180 days. An IS is finished with its contact obligations well in advance of the end of the calendar year. An IS could miss a month and still not be behind, and even if they missed more, those agencies have a mechanism to grant exceptions for unusual events all the time.
interteach
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Re: Make-Up Days

Post by interteach »

This post has been removed by the forum moderator. Please refrain from name calling and belittling remarks that serve no purpose except to attack another user.
interteach
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm

Re: Make-Up Days

Post by interteach »

Come back and talk to me when you've been an administrator at a US accredited school that has lost teaching days.
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