American Teacher for Europe

joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

MA+8 is $84,000, which after tax is $57,800 (again, assuming you're not a Brit working there as then you'll have to repay your student loan, and assuming if you're American you give the middle finger to your loans when you move abroad). The BA+4 is earning $47,300.

The extra $10,500 does make a difference, and you wouldn't be counting every penny then. With that said, you still won't be living centrally and I wouldn't want to try and bring up a family on this amount (because then you'll need more than a 1 bedroom place, making your housing costs shoot up again and they're already extortionate). For a single, the MA+8 salary is just about approaching something acceptable to have a life in London. With that said, there's certainly better savings potential in a lot of other cities that are much nicer places to live in than London.
global_nomad
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by global_nomad »

I don't necessarily disagree with Thames. I guess, in the end, there are people who live more for the "1st world life style" with little or no savings potential and then those who want to save money for a comfortable retirement, while having a great 3rd world lifestyle. From my experience, the teachers in the former group, though, tend to have other forms of income, have already made their money earlier in their career, or have family money. Thinking about retirement and having money to take full advantage of all a city has to offer isn't a concern for them.

But then there are teachers, a huge minority from my experience, who simply "live for the day," which is a lot of fun until they hit about 50 and realize they have little or nothing for retirement (or worse, a lot of debt!). But they loved London...or Milan...or Barcelona... :-) To each their own. But I'm in the pragmatic camp, without family money, who would recommend that the CEESA schools in Prague, Warsaw, Budapest or even Moscow are a better fit for most teachers.
Thames Pirate
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by Thames Pirate »

We save money even here in WE--and can do so on one income. That's straight cash before any benefits. We travel, go out to eat, etc--and still can save for retirement. Just not as much. AND we get to live in Europe for the moment.
joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

You talk about 'we get to live in (Western) Europe' like it's some sort of positive.

Agree with global_nomad that the East and Central European schools are far better. Higher wages, lower taxes, and the cities are much nicer places to live in. Prague is great - really cheap beer, low cost of living, super hot women. Other places in Eastern Europe will be similar.

Living in WE, where you can be worked live a slave then be taxed at 40% is NOT a benefit, it's a hardship.
Thames Pirate
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by Thames Pirate »

Joe, you still don't get that for many of us, it IS a positive.

Prague is absolutely great--probably the best of all worlds within Europe. I am not disagreeing with that. The wages aren't higher, but the taxes are lower in many places. I would not say the cities are nicer--I would take Munich over Bucharest, for example, any day.

We are not slaves here in WE, either. We are quite content with a workload that rarely has us working beyond the school day. Obviously that varies from school to school, but my husband was only part time last year in a DS, and he worked more there than full time here.
joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

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Thames Pirate
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by Thames Pirate »

Except that it really doesn't--Eastern European countries have lower taxes, but their wages are also lower. Schools pay 30-45K vs. 50-75K in WE, so the take home pay is about the same or even lower. Unless the cost of living is substantially lower (and in most cities, it isn't--but where it is, the pay is lower), the end result is not that different. The schools that pay less than 50K in WE are bottom tier type schools, often in the middle of nowhere, where the cost of living is lower. If you are comparing like to like (quality schools in Bucharest vs. Munich), you will see that the salaries are in line with the higher tax and COL.

And yes, you do have the cash to do things in WE--even in Munich, which has more to offer than Bucharest. Some of us enjoy things like museums (some of us consider the British Museum--which is free, btw--a perk of living in London, for example). Of course, not all of us are interested in the women, either. You seem to forget that not all teachers are horny young men.

Again, different strokes, but the point remains the same. You can make WE work easily enough and even save money, and if that's what a person wants, great! Find ways to make it happen.
mysharona
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by mysharona »

Haven't I seen this thread somewhere before?

I've worked in both Europe and Asia and they each have their up and downsides. I save a great deal more money in Asia but there was nothing like a day in Vienna, Budapest or Prague. But then again sitting on a Thai beach at New Years was pretty special as was exploring the Borneo Rainforest. And yet Barcelona on a beautiful day can't be beat.

Why is it so hard to accept that there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and for fun lets throw Africa into the mix, and move on. I'm not sure why anyone has to make such a voracious argument unless they are either unhappy where they are or disappointed where they are not.
joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

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Thames Pirate
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by Thames Pirate »

Again, you are arguing an opinion. Museums are boring to people like you, not to everyone. Oh, and your sexism is showing--plenty of men find museums interesting and plenty of women find them boring--also, many teachers are women.

You can live comfortably in a not-shoebox place in Munich--think good-sized house with yard, guest rooms, and even a sauna. Pretty much every town has a brewery in the Munich area, and beer is cheap (about half the price of beer in Thailand at the supermarket). Again, not everyone cares about the women, either (again, many teachers are women or married men). Why are you trying to argue a matter of opinion and preference?

Schools do put that information down, but if you look more closely, you find that it's pretty equal. Sure, you can save more at top schools in Asia--nobody is disputing that. But when you actually compare savings in WE to EE, it's pretty comparable (based on our experiences, friends' experiences, and school reporting data).
joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

Museams, art galleries and the theatre are boring to everyone except women and gay men. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Munich

Of particular note in that link:

Basic (Electricity, Heating, Water, Garbage) for 85m2 Apartment 259.61 $
Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 1,505.29 $

So, your good sized house with guest rooms is setting you back $1750 a month including utilities - $21,000 a year. How much are you even taking home (net) in Munich? $35,000? I can only see one Munich school on Search, and they pay $67,000 but say tax is 45% - so $37,000 takehome - but they do look like a pretty high payer compared to other German schools. Anyway, even at this school, after you're paying $21,000 for rent and utilities for your 'good sized house' you'll have $16,000 left. Doesn't look like you'll be doing much travelling, museam visiting or saving to me - infact, it doesn't look like you'll be doing much of anything since anyone knows $16,000 is a tiny disposable income. And this is at a school that looks pretty high paying compared to others in the region!

Now let's look at Bucharest. There's one school there listed on Search. Pays $32,000, no tax, and $19,500 housing allowance. You're making just over $50,000 tax free, and even if you use the entire housing allowance for your rent, that still leaves you with twice the disposable income that you'll have in Munich.
Thames Pirate
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by Thames Pirate »

Yes, MIS is a high payer in Europe. Bavarian International is also in Munich, as are PHORMS schools, for example--and others not on SEARCH. What you missed was that the salary is in Euros. Also, those numbers aren't accurate for Munich housing, but for the sake of argument, let's use them anyway.

Also, that tax information is a bit misleading because taxes in Germany, like many places, are complicated. 45% is the TOP END tax. Most at a school like MIS are taking home a lot more than $35,000. Taxes are less complicated in Romania--the school says that salary isn't taxed, but in fact residents of Romania pay 16% of their income (and while I don't know if housing is taxable income, frequently such benefits are, in fact, taxed as income). Suddenly those numbers even out a bit more.

67000 Euros as of today is over 71,200 USD. Let's assume a 40% rate (more average)--that is net 42,720. Even assuming your high estimate of 1700 USD/month, your disposable is 22,320.

Now when you look at Romania's 51,500 taxable income (maxed housing allowance for that good sized house) and take out the 16%, you get 43,260. Now take out the 19,500 for the housing and you get 23,760. That's pretty comparable. By the way, this is also the top paying school in the region, so we are comparing like to like.

Then again, you can't tell the difference between fact and opinion, so I don't know how anyone can reason with you. Lots of straight men like museums; that is a fact. Many of them also know how to spell the word. By the way, many of the best museums in the world are free, including the Smithsonian, the British Museum, the Museum of Natural History, and many more (seriously, lots of straight men love dinosaurs and rockets). The Condom Museum near BKK falls into the free category as well, but you can expect to pay about $13 for the Icelandic Phallus Museum. See, there are museums for all types, and they don't dig into that disposable income, but do contribute to quality of life for those who like them.
joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

The salary might be PAID in Euros, but $67,000 is the dollar equivilant, or at least that's how Search describes it. It doesn't mean you're getting paid 67,000 Euros - unless the school has filled in the Search information incorrectly.

The 16% Romanian tax doesn't matter to us, since the school is paying it. The salary listed on Search is the net figure - the words 'salary is not taxed' confirm this.

I'd rather go off Numbeo figures, rather than Thames Pirate's assessment of the housing situation. Even if you are 'only' paying 40% tax in Munich, you're ending up with a lot more money in Bucharest. Plus, according to Numbeo, it'd be very easy to find a huge place for far far less than the $19,500 allowance, so you can save more there.

This isn't even debatable: Bucharest clearly wins out over Munich. It's not even close. And then to add insult to injury, I bet everything else besides housing costs more in Munich too. In Bucharest on $50k net, you have a huge salary relative to the locals. On that Munich salary, well, it's pretty average compared to the locals. It doesn't take a genius to see which place you'll have more spending power in.
Thames Pirate
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by Thames Pirate »

Nope, it's in Euros. The salary schedule for MIS was, at one point, online. I don't know if it still is. It must be that the Search info is filled out incorrectly.

Also, the "salary is not taxed" is just as misleading and frequently incorrect. Sometimes the evidence is clear that the school actually pays the tax (look at IS Genoa vs. other Italian schools--their salary is about 40% lower, but they say it isn't taxed while those with higher salaries then have the 40% tax). Sometimes, it is the opposite. Look at Austria--four schools in the 50K range, 2 say taxed at 35%, two say not taxed--clearly someone is either overpaying or lying. Sometimes the rules vary based on home country, so they just say "not taxed." So we cannot assume the salary is tax free without more research.

You can use numbeo. I am using both anecdotal evidence (we have many friends in Munich, not all of them teachers) and things like apartment finders for my claim. But hey, I used your numbers all the same. And yes, the cost of living in most things is a bit lower in Bucharest, which is why the salary is so much lower. Oh, and the average Munich salary is roughly 2/3 of what MIS teachers make.

My point is that they are more comparable than you think they are and that you can save decently even in some of Europe's more expensive cities like Munich. Sure, you might save more in Bucharest, but not that much more, and if the OP is happier in WE, then what's the problem other than that you just want everyone to think like you do?
joe30
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Re: American Teacher for Europe

Post by joe30 »

Well unless you personally know the recruiter at AIS Bucharest and they've told you there a 16% tax, I don't see how you can state such things with confidence.

Regarding Austria, I don't see why schools in the same city cannot have different compensation packages.

Even if there is a 16% tax on the $51,500 (which there probably isn't), that's still $43,200. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Bucharest says a 3 bedroom apartment outside the city centre is $420, with utilities been $100 (whereas your 3 bedroom place in Munich is quoted at $1700 with utilities). So chances are you could spend just over $6,000 of that housing alowance and bank the other $13,500. No matter which way you slice this particular cake, it's quite clear which place you'll have more money in. And it's not a bit more money, it's a very significant amount more.
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