Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

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waybuloo
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:15 pm

Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by waybuloo »

Hi everyone, I wonder if anyone know about the Mandarin teacher's prospect in ISs?

First of all, I am a Chinese that been living in the UK for the past 16 years. I am a British passport holder. My husband is a blogger which means we can live anywhere in the world that has internet. We don't have any close relatives who live here anymore, so we are seriously considering to relocate somewhere in Asia in the next 2-3 years time.

In order to make this happen, I started an online course (teaching Chinese as a foreign language). Hopefully will finish in 4 month time, but I know a TCFL is not good enough to teach in ISs. I am planning to go back to University later this year to do a part-time postgraduate course in either MA in TCSOL (teach Chinese to other language speakers) or MA in International Education.

Typically UK schools rarely offer mandarin as part of a curriculum, to gain as much experience as I can:

1. I started teaching Chinese to groups of children in the weekend, in a Chinese school.(2 hours each week)
2. Will start volunteering as a teaching assistant to a local state school that teaches primary kids Chinese.(two afternoons)
3. I’m signing up with an agency that provides Chinese lessons in secondary state schools. If I get the position, I will be teaching Chinese 1-3 hours a week in these schools.

The time I move abroad will possibly be August 2019. By that time, I would have the MA in TCSOL or MA in International Education, and the listed experience. I may also fit in a level 3 SEN Diploma if I have time.

My questions:
1. Which one would be better to have on my CV, MA in TCSOL or MA in International Education?
2. Does ISs hire Chinese teachers abroad rather than locally?
3. What are my chances of getting a Chinese teacher position, having a trailing spouse and 2 dependants?

Can anyone let me know if my plan (studies and experience) will be enough to get me teacher job in ISs.

Thanks
Thames Pirate
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Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by Thames Pirate »

You might want to look into additional subject areas. There just isn't a lot of demand for Mandarin. Some, but not a lot, so it would be extremely limiting. Maybe English as a foreign language?
eion_padraig
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by eion_padraig »

It's impossible to say if you can get a job, but it would probably be tough.

With trailing spouse and two dependents you would be an expensive hire. This would be tough even for someone with lots of experience in a high need subject.

My school has some Chinese and some Taiwanese teachers who teach Mandarin. I'm at a school located in Mainland China. Those who were working outside of China were hired are on overseas packages. They receive the same benefits as other overseas hires.

Quite a few of the international schools in China hire Chinese teachers in country and don't give overseas hiring packages to teachers. This means they don't get housing and flight benefits. In some cases the teachers are on a lower pay scale too.

I've met a Chinese teacher (Chinese national) who works at an international school in Vietnam, so there may be options in the general region.

My last school (a private US high school) hired someone with experience more similar to yours with teaching Chinese on the weekends for 8 years. A few years ago there was relatively high need for Mandarin teachers in private/independent US high schools, but typically those schools are not in a position to sponsor visas. I remember talking with Chinese national at a Carney Sandoe hiring fair looking for a job. There were a lot of openings, but she was worried that her English level wasn't good enough (as I recall it wasn't great).

Good luck.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

A TCFL is worth nothing in IE. Either an IS needs/wants an IT with a professional credential, or they dont care and it doesnt matter if you have a TCFL.

As opposed to the TCFL (really quit if you can get your coin back) complete a PGCE course that will give you NQT (and QTS). This is typically a one year course, and it will be one of the easiest PGCEs ever, because you wont have to teach anything. Youll be in the modern languages department and will spend most of your time doing observations and lesson plans, and a handful of guest lessons or ASPs. Which is basically what you are doing now, the works already done, you just have to go through the motions. This gives you a professional educator credential. The problem is that you will likely never be able to get full QTS because youll likely never find a DS to do induction at (though possible you could do it at a BSO).
You could then do the Teach Now program out of the US (DC) in the UK, then when you get the DC credential apply for QTS and avoid having to do induction all together. A lot would depend if Teach Now would accept what you are doing now as field experience, its piece mail but it might be enough combined to qualify.
The other option would be to forget Chinese all together and get a PGCE or other credential in Primary education.
Bilingual immersion at primary has a wider and better market than secondary academic Chinese. If you went the DC route you could do both

In regards to your inquiry:

1) A Masters in International Education. Though if your going to do a Masters do one in Education Leadership, or School Counseling. Those will lead to specific credentials you can market yourself in leadership or as a counselor. A masters should always do more than just get you into a classroom. Theres a market for native Chinese educated abroad to run bottom third tier ISs who have western credentials and education. Get the degree from OxBridge and you will have your choice of opportunities.

2) A few are hired as OSH ITs, but those are going to be Chinese ISs and those are typically third tier ISs. Most ISs would hire a local on a LH package. There are some upper tier ISs that would hire an OSH IT but youd be competing for a handful of positions globally assuming all of them were vacant. You could go whole years without seeing a single vacancy.

3) Really, really, really close to zero. You would just be too expensive a hire to fill a classroom for a subject thats basically a luxury. ISs dont have to offer Mandarin (there were about 3150 IB exam candidates for Chinese LB last year, almost all of them were native speakers).
The reason why its not zero is because in the handful of ISs that would be actively recruiting for a IT in Chinese, youre going to be in a very, very, small candidate pool. If an IS has the vacancy and you apply, your going to get an interview, and your probably going to be the best candidate out of the couple there are.
waybuloo
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by waybuloo »

Thanks for the replies. Good insights and its got me thinking about alternative ways to achieve my goal.

@ Thames Pirate,

Thanks for your advice; I think I’d better stick with something I have confidence with for the time being.

@ eion_padraig,

I agree with you.

It would be very difficult to find a job with dependents, I was wondering if we can also apply for a scholarship for my daughter in the same school to make myself more employable? (My daughter is on scholarship now and she is good all -rounder, in the idea that she might add value to the school’s academic achievement? ).

Location wise we’d prefer Asia only, Thailand is our favourite.


@ PsyGuy

I appreciate your advice and will thinking over again.

For years, we admired our expat friends, we find them open minded and easy to get on with, that ‘s why we decided to do the same.

Originally we were planning to live sorely on my husband’s earnings, but when we looked at the visa system in Thailand, we know our best chance is to get a working visa, hence the teaching idea.

I really like teaching Mandarin, it’s the easiest subject that I can do well at, but not sure about teaching other subjects. Primary math and literacy should be fine but isn’t the market already saturated?

Counselling is great idea but I need a Bsc in Psychology or similar background. I only have a degree in Politics from Coventry University that is of no use at all.

As regards to a PGCE and a QTS, we have looked at an equivalent qualification. Level 5 Diploma in Education and Training is equivalent to a PGCE and it leads to a QTLS which is equivalent to a QTS. It can be attained in 1.5 years which is faster than a PGCE + induction year.

If I get a Level 5 Diploma in Education and Training with QTLS, would I be able to teach Mandarin without proper training in the subject (i.e. by not taking the MA in TCSOL)?

So if you compare a MA in TCSOL vs. level 5 Diploma QTLS, the latter should be better in the eyes of the IS recruiter?

Route One: Tier 3 International Hire
I understand that I will not get a job in a desired school to start with, so one possible route is to pay for the tuition fees for a good (tier 2 and above) school while I start my career in low tier ISs and gradually working up, eventually end in the same IS where my kids will go for free (or mostly free). Is that idea feasible?

Route Two: Tier 2 and above Local Hire

Regarding difficulty in getting the job internationally to a good IS. We were thinking if we move there first and then get the job locally. By getting the job locally, would our 2 children still be able to get the benefit of free education in IS? I don’t need health insurance for my spouse, an excellent salary, or flights paid for; our bottom line is to get free education in a good IS for our kids. Would this be a possible route?

There are some posts for mandarin teachers at from these schools:

https://uptic.net/school/bisv

http://www.internationalschooljobs.com/ ... 23?cat=385

https://www.tes.com/jobs/vacancy/mandar ... ore-460204
Thames Pirate
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by Thames Pirate »

You could totally get a certification in teaching ESL. The theory of language acquisition is the same for English and for Mandarin; if anything, ESL is easier because of the immersion, the fact that other teachers support it by default, and because the language is easier.

You could also probably get a social studies or humanities certification of some sort with your background. It sounds like you are more qualified than you give yourself credit for.
Monkey
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by Monkey »

I don't know the answers to all of your questions, but I can say that I know of at least one large, Tier 1 school in China hires Chinese teachers as overseas hires if they have foreign passports. So if one does it, others probably do as well.
sid
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by sid »

If you can live on your husband's earnings, you might be able to get a school to take you on as a local hire with visa sponsorship. This would make you a much cheaper hire and highly desirable. Native speaker, internationally trained, experience in UK schools. It could work.
If you're looking for recruited hire status, you'll be competing with other foreigners with far more experience and smaller families. If you look for local hire status, you have qualities that can be hard to find.
mamava
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by mamava »

For what it's worth, when I was in China, almost all of our Chinese teachers (for Mandarin) held foreign passports or were from Hong Kong or Taiwan. A couple were from SIngapore. I don't know if we had any Chinese nationals who were mainland Chinese, which made them overseas hires.

Lots of schools in Thailand and Singapore have Mandarin teachers and Manadarin is taught at schools in HK and Taiwan. You'd be limited to Asian countries, but you might find something...the dependents will still be an issue, though.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@waybuloo

What you refer to as a "scholarship" is the primary reason you are such a expensive logistical hire. ISs general give places/fee waivers for dependent children, typically at a ratio of 1:1 and less often but still common at 1:2. The average value of these places is $10K which is less of an issue at an IS thats below capacity where that value is just ledger value, but at an IS thats at capacity or where those places restrict enrollment of fee generating parents its real coin. Two kids is $20K and at an average global IT salary of $30K that becomes a very expensive hire to fill a FL classroom.

If the entire issue is just to obtain visas, IE isnt the way to go, you can more easily, and readily get into a language school teaching Chinese. Many major cities globally have language schools that offer different languages to the general public who want to study for various reasons. English gets the most attention, but Chinese is as marketable as anything else, and youd look the part well.

Yes its saturated but its not desolate like Chinese FL is, Ive seen one Mandarin vacancy this year at a decent IS. There are lots of primary ITs and lots of primary vacancies, but your niche that you bring that those ITs dont have is the ability to offer bilingual immersion. Youre not looking for just "any" primary vacancy your looking for primary vacancies with a predominate Chinese speaking student population. Whats even more likely and open to you with a primary credential is all the EC (Early Childhood/Nursery and Reception) ISs that someone who is bilingual is gold. Your basically working with 2-6 year olds doing literacy, numeracy, and arts activities during the day between recess (playtime) and lunch/snack.

You dont need a B.Sc/BS/BA or a degree in psychology to get into a school counseling program. The credentialing program is a masters level course, and you will get the psych degree as part of getting the credential.
Youre degree is valuable, you could look into a credential in teaching business studies, economics or various social studies. There are a lot of ITs especially in social studies and humanities who have varied backgrounds teaching in areas they werent initially prepared in. Humanities/social Studies is probably the most interdisciplinary department in an IS. Remember this isnt rocket science, and even when it is rocket science its the kids version of rocket science. There isnt anything taught in an IS thats above the level of first year Uni studies (except maths, and only for a couple courses). You see in the media some of the "awesome" things students are doing in their classrooms and schools and those stories make the media because the other 99.94% of ISs are just plodding through a textbook. Sure there are some interesting studio lessons but mostly its review stuff, you talk about new stuff and then they do some stuff, then you mark their stuff, and turn the page the next day. It sounds very uninspiring but the difference between "good ITs" and "bad ITs" is dressing that stuff up at the lowest cost in time and resources. You can construct a lesson where 1) You "tell" students how probability works or 2) Give them a plastic coin and have them do a simple graph and table doing coin flips and then watch a you tube video. The first is a "bad IT" the second is a "good IT", then you can 3) Give the students a silver dollar and have them do the same table and graph and ask them to write a reaction paper why the table and graph is different than the first. Then the next day students will take sides in a debate between the two most popular ideas, after which each group must develop a plan to test and determine why their idea is the right one. That makes you a "great IT".

I was going to discuss the nuance of QTS vs. QTLS, but its moot.
First, yes, you could get a DET, but its not going to save you any significant time over a PGCE both the DET and the PGCE are equivalent number of units and but the DET is at level 5 in the QCF, whereas the PGCE is more flexible with masters credits it sits at level 7 in QCF and level 6 in the QCF without masters credits. With masters credits the PGCE would be half a masters the DET is a bunch of nothing, and its going to cost you the same in time and resources.
Second, a PGCE isnt the only avenue to QTS, you could forgo the qualifications altogether (PGCE and DET) and obtain QTS through the assessment only (AO) route, and the process only takes a 3 months and costs about £2K. You could be done before the end of the term, and have £7K to do a masters if you wanted. You would still have to do induction, or you could skip induction entirely an NQT still has QTS, worry about induction when you have an opportunity, and it will be a paid opportunity.
This appears to be what your goal is so why take the long road?

IE is far more concerned with professional educator credentials than they are with education degrees. While some lower 3rd tier ISs will hire an IT without a credential and just a degree, the bar to entry is a professional credential. A Masters is not a credential, a doctorate is not a credential. ISs dont care so much how smart you are they care if you know how and can transfer knowledge. There are a lot of very well educated and intelligent people who cant teach themselves out of a box. Further in that point a TCSOL is not a professional educator credential.

No a Masters is at level 7 the DET is at level 5, you might spend similar amounts of time but the DET is a vocational qualification.

QTLS and QTS are both professional credentials, the Masters is not, thr DET is a vocational qualification several steps down from a masters. A credential is significantly more marketable in IE than a Masters alone.

Route 1: Not really, ISs rarely give merit scholarships (UWC, etc. are the exceptions). Its a business first, and on a third tier ITs comp. Just to give you an idea, in Thailand the bottom of IE just above ESOL is around 60K Baht/month, high end of third tier is going to be 80K Baht/Month thats if your paid an annualized gross comp of 960K Baht/year. The fees at ISB are:
1) Application fee 4500 Baht
2) Registration fee (first year) 260000
3) Membership Fee 20000
4) Tuition about 840000
5) Transportation varies
It will cost more than your entire gross comp to send one child. The fees arent much better at other ISS a tier two IS will have similar registration and ancillary fees and tuition will be about 3/4s at around 650000 Baht/year. By the time you get down to a tuition you could afford, they might as well go to the third tier IS you work at and would get a fee waiver for your children.

Route 2: Likely, places/fee waivers are one of the easier factors to negotiate, especially if the IS is below capacity. The issues you will run into is that upper tier ISs wont/cant negotiate the package for you. They dont have a lot of flexibility its basically are you LH or OSH and the comp, everything else is set by ownership, and they cant/wont let you undercut the comp package to make yourself more marketable. The second issue is that those upper tier ISs often are at or near capacity. The strategy of relocating first so that you can appeal as a LH is a strong one, but youd be restricting yourself to opportunities. Youd be in that city and youd have a a small handful of ISs that appeal to you, and they would have to have a vacancy and then appoint you. It sounds more and more like having to win the lottery.

The first vacancy will meet your objectives, its 1st tier though its Vietnam, some of the worst ISs in the world are in Vietnam.
The second is likely a lower third tier IS.
The third is a second tier IS, but the location is very strong, and also one of the most expensive costs of living in the world. A 2LDK flat will cost you S$3000-S$3500 on the cheap side.
waybuloo
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by waybuloo »

@PSYGUY
thanks for you in-depth reply, it made me rethink about what I really wanted to do.

Let's put it this way, I don't want to end up in China, its good to be there for a few years but not long term. The teaching route you pointed out, as a primary bilingual teacher, as far as I can think off, they are mostly needed in China, maybe Conordian in Bangkok, so being a primary teacher is limiting my location choices.

If language schools assist with the visa then they are considerable too, but it depends on the location. If the commute is doable then I will try, the kids comes first as always.

PGCE is THE route undoubtedly, but I don't think I'd complete it in a year, that's why I've always opted for a 2 year part-time MA, which seems much more manageable between home/kids and studies. In addition , If I study part-time, I can continue my part-time jobs of teaching/volunteering. If I study full time, I have to drop the work, hence no teaching experience. Unfortunately I can not find any universities near by offers a postgraduate related to counselling.

Kids's education comes first, so if the tier1 school in Vietnam takes me then I'll go. Singapore/HK are out of the window now due to the high living cost.

Before I apply for further education I will have good think about, maybe my perception will change in time.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@waybuloo

There are primary Chinese immersion ISs across Asia, though its true many of them are in China. The route forward is to provide you a foundation that you can adapt along the path to get you where you want to be, many ITs start out in hardship regions such as China, but with professional credentials, strong experience in a a K12/KS classroom, and potentially IB and a masters in your resume is going to have a lot more marketability and utility than as a language ET.
It seems limited because all your options at this stage are limiting.

A part time, 2 year MA does not earn you a professional credential. It may fit in your schedule better, but the two are not interchangeable. You can do all kinds of things, that are productive and fit into your schedule, but there is one outcome that accomplishes a specific goal.
None of those activities you described earlier would be acceptable in IE, they arent worth anything as far as "teaching experience". Maintaining those activities isnt going to count as experience in IE compared to the value of a professional credential.

Have you explored distance and online education options as previously described, but if there isnt anything you can find available, there isnt anything you can find available.
panda123
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by panda123 »

@waybuloo

I happen to be in the similar situation as you; I have two dependents and I plan to teach Mandarin in Intl School abroad. But instead of pursuing QLTS (for further education, not school), MA in Intl Edu and MA in TCSOL, which are NOT required by Intl School recruiters, I will do PGCE amid plenty of obstacles ahead including long travel distance to uni & schools, requirement to take GCSE English, etc. A friend of mine, who can teach both Mandarin and Spanish languages and equipped with a Masters in Education from HK, said she tried but failed to secure employment in Intl Schools. Recently she has been accepted to take PGCE in UK this Sept. So I strongly suggest you to reconsider your plan.

Alternatively, you can also consider teacher training providers in other nations, for example, Singapore MOE's PGDE, HK PGDE (I heard it is much easier than PGCE), Fairview Intl School (IB school) in Msia offering 3 years contract in work and study (IB training + Singapore PGDE), or PGCEi from Sunderland/Nottingham Uni (online, may be accepted abroad not UK).
waybuloo
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Re: Plan to become a teacher in ISs?

Post by waybuloo »

to panda123,
Thanks for your reply. I am still working towards my goal, including going back to China to do a certification later on this year.
Just wonder is there any way i could be touch with you offline to talk about this? can you do pm on this forum?
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@waybuloo

PMs are disabled on this forum. if you wish you can include an email address or other contact information in your profile. Click on <User Control Panel> near the top of the screen in the title part of the page. Once in the control panel click on the <profile> tab the default selection on the left side is <Edit Profile> scroll to the bottom. In the "Interests block you may enter whatever free text you wish including email or messenger user names. At the bottom click <Submit>. Another user may then click on your forum username at a number of locations to view your profile, and will be able to copy/paste the contact information you provided.

It is STRONGLY advised you NOT post contact information in a post as you will shortly be unable to alter or edit the post without an admins assistance, and the public forum is indexed by a number of search engine bots, making it relatively easy to harvest your contact email for spam and harassment. The control panel profile can be edited as you so choose.
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