Midnight Running and being chased advice

learninglee
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:22 pm

Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by learninglee »

I broke a contract in Turkey recently, almost days after arriving for various reasons I won't go into publicly. Do you think a school in Turkey are able to take me to court in the UK for breaking a teacher contract? If they spent money on shipping and flights etc. I would appreciate any advice. I didn't physically sign a contract just agreed via email. It was all done through a UK based agency. I have been lucky enough to have found a job straight away, primary teacher with science as a subject. I was completely honest at the interview with my new employer who were very sympathetic, I am now abroad in my new position, so not a UK resident as such.
I'm just worried about some mildly threatening emails from the previous school demanding some ludicrous amounts of money I pay them through their lawyers who are apparently on the case. I have no plans to ever go to Turkey again so I'm not worried about that.
I haven't been contacted by the employment agency and no I didn't sign a contract with them, just the school. The school have been in contact with me stating that they are contacting their lawyers who apparently have a branch in London. I want to point out that I have offered to pay for my flight/baggage/rent etc to the Turkey school, but they want much more payment than that and said they will take me to court to get it.
Anyone have any experience with this type of situation?
Thames Pirate
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Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by Thames Pirate »

No direct experience, but my response would be "come get me."
NewsAdviser
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by NewsAdviser »

I have zero experience in the IT world, much less how international laws work, but I tend to agree with Thames' advice.

But...if at all the case and If the harassment continued:

I might have a UK lawyer respond stating you will counter sue for trauma endured while under their brief employment should they choose to pursue their erroneous and outlandish claims.

(Or something to that effect).
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by blinky »

My advice is to tell them that you are going to write the parents and explain what happened and what they are trying to do. That is, if you left for good reason. If you didn't, then you need to learn from it and maybe decide this isn't for you. Too many schools abuse teachers with their connections and economic clout. They need to be accountable. And teachers need to have a backbone and some confidence.

By 2025, there are going to be 15,000 international schools. Right now, there are 8000. For the last ten years, it has been an employer's market and employer's interpretation on a contract. Pay and benefits But the supply will become closer to the demand - even become less than the demand and teachers are becoming more effective and relaying information about schools to the public and to each other. Schools - non-profit or profit - are just businesses that need good people.

Teachers need to know their worth (or lack of worth in some cases - be objective, all the same) and continue on with the mentality that they are service providers in a growing market. It's painful to read ISR and hear teachers say: "Is this a red flag?" or "am I marketable?" or "would you hire me?" Come on! Do you hear successful business people who actually know how to market themselves talk like that? And then there are those that impose these "objective" preconditions on employment, like: "You must have two years experience." Or, "You should be certified in physics and have no kids and a wife that does special ED." Give me a break. Or "you're too old." This market needs teachers 365 days a year in over 200 countries.

If schools want to #%#%# around, then out them. Don't fall into the recruiter traps and blacklist threats because there aren't any. Search and ISS are just money making enterprises that want naive teachers.They make money off of your labour and will soon be defunct, as third . apps for references become better and better well known, like Schrole.

Do your job and do it well. Or don't teach. There is a breach and they brought you over on false pretences. That's on them. Review them and make them known. This is your responsibility to fellow teachers and to families who pay for their kids to be in a positive environment.

In the end, the last thing this school is going to want is PR problems. If they want to threaten you, tell them that you want to go public and you want parents and media to decide, and that you have parent friends in the community. We are here to provide a service on agreed terms to the best of our abilities. If this is hindered by lies, corruption and bullying - the contract is NULL.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Are they able, yes. Would they prevail, and be able to enforce their judgment. Unlikely and with considerable risk.
Contracts arent just signed and written. Verbal contracts are just as enforceable as written ones, and signing is less important than "execution", meaning there is a meeting of minds and all parties intend to perform to the terms of the agreement. The court will need to determine if the terms were understood and agreed and if your presence constituted execution. Not signing and email discussion are not defacto defenses that there was no agreement. Did the IS breach first would also be a major conclusion the court would need to determine.

No intention of going to Turkey greatly reduces the enforcement they would have should they secure a judgement against you. Not being in the UK also makes it much more difficult to enforce the judgement against you.

"Their" lawyers dont have a branch in London, they may at best have hired outside counsel with an office in London.

This is nothing more at this point an attempt to scare you into extortion. Lets look at the legal aspects of this case.

1) Probably, the greatest problem they have is that the court doesnt have jurisdiction of the subject matter. This contract was entered to in Turkey under contracts and tort law in Turkey. They need to file suit in Turkey and then attempt to domesticate the judgment in England.

2) They will have a difficult time asserting personal jurisdiction on you, mainly in the form of serving you with a complaint requiring your attendance in court when they dont know where you are.

3) Their compensatory damages are going to be difficult to prove. Your transportation and flights are expenses incurred in the ordinary conduction of business. It was business travel. Moving an employee from point A to point B. Rent is another item difficult to prove as damage for the same reasons. You worked there and while doing so you were entitled to housing, when you ceased employment there you vacated the housing. There isnt a satisfaction guarantee that you owe them.

4) Their position for the large amount of damages is likely due that they cant get another IT or DT to do the job, they have an obligation to mitigate their damages which they likely havent done.

There are likely a lot of defenses you would be able to offer, that would mitigate or invalidate their claims. Likely you could also counter sue for damages.
The amount they would get if anything is likely minimal, and even if they win they have to collect. A judgment is a piece of paper its not coin,a nd they have to pay a legal teams fees regardless.

I would NOT pay them anything, even a token amount it may strengthen their case as an acknowledgment of liability.

Contacting parents is a risky action, one it could inflame them more and second it depends how you got the email addresses, if they are the ISs and you "took" them you may no longer have a claim to them. You could be violating some aspect of Turkish criminal law.

@blinky

I agree too much power is int he hand of the ISs and thats changing, but not visibly so, and its still the status quo. There are many more candidates than there are vacancies.

Having a backbone is great, but there are a lot of leadership that wants malleable ITs who will do the bauble head. There isnt an accountability system in IE, the extent is navigating a foreign legal system as an alien and outsider. Most ITs dont have the resources to pursue a civil suite, and even when there are expedient options of resolution many ISs are independent, private organizations that have wide latitude to dismiss employees for a wide variety of causes. An IS can always make the case sound worse than what is true, they can say anything. Look at NB, and think about what leadership would have to say even in your HOR to get rid of you. It could be as simple as going into your classroom after youve left and leaving a bottle of spirits in your desk or clicking on some adult orientated sites, and then saying they received information you had these and they searched and your gone. What are you going to say, you were set up, which is true, but how do you prove it. They have their legal and institutional resources and all you have is the claims of a defendant accused of misconduct.

Yes the number of ISs will double in the next decade, but all that growth is in the third tier and most of its at the bottom. The growth of upper tier ISs the ones ITs generally strive towards has been nearly flat.

I agree this site is a great beginning for outing and publishing bad ISs, but even here things have changed. We cant publish review information on the public forums. We need more thats more accessible and more publicly available.
The premium agencies are around because the ISs and leadership wants them, as the market and field changes so will they.

Schrole, is a spin off project of SA, but even TIE accepts confidential references.

PR only is an issue for ISs that care about their image, there are a lot of them that now how bad they are and dont care to change or be better.
sid
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by sid »

Interesting that you've already gotten good advice on the TES forum and now you're switching over.
If UK lawyers contact you, you'd best get yourself to a lawyer and get real advice. They can easily tell you whether there is jurisdiction in the UK, and how much merit is in their case.
If the school is just threatening that lawyers will call, ignore the threat. Wait and see.
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by blinky »

Even if they have a lawyer call you, it won't be enforceable. My brother is an International Lawyer. Unless you signed some sort of a bank loan, or they bank rolled you significant amounts of money that they had documented on a legally binding contract, it is neither solvent for them to go after, nor will the courts even bother with it. Like I said, the most they can do is bark. In that case, you bark back. It's disappointing that Sid and Psy Guy are perpetuating this myth. Come on, guys. Have you ever heard of a school successfully suing a IT for backing out of a contract, so they could go after an insignificant flight cost and baggage fees?

In reality, you should go after the school (again, if they did breach, and you didn't leave for flippant reasons. You should pay money back in this case) in Turkey. Teachers need to stop this servant/peasant mentality and have some backbone.

@ Psy Guy: Yes, most of these schools will be third tier, but their business practices will have to adapt to the change in demand and the increasing public awareness, or they will fail. A friend of mine worked for a school in Guangdong who literally can't get people to work there anymore- despite offering high salaries. Believe it or not, even Chinese parents are bothered by the turnover and rumours, because this is making costs higher and the service they pay for less effective and less reputable to Universities and expats and accreditation agencies. Sure, there will always be a small market for lower middle class people that just want their kids to learn English and not be in classes of 60. But most schools want higher enrolments with profitable tuition rates, and they will have to adapt.

When the total number of schools doubles and the total number of applicants does not double and competition from other schools does double, dynamics will change. The reason why many schools do not follow good business practices is because they do not have a big enough incentive to, and teachers are still naive and generally less educated in business and law than they are.

And looking at costs and benefits, why would a school plant pornography on a teacher's hard drive to get them in trouble and risk the scandal? Just so they could get a thousand dollars back? Come on, dude. NB's school in Indonesia DID NOT benefit at all, nor did they create the scandal. Why would a school want a public scandal like this? Would parents be lining up to pay tuition at the school where the pedophile or drug addict taught? Stop perpetuating these fear based ideas.
sid
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by sid »

What myth am I perpetuating? I advised ignoring the school. There is nothing to be gained by barking back.
I advised getting a lawyer if actual UK lawyers start calling round. As you point out above, in certain unlikely circumstances, the OP might actually be liable for repayment of costs or penalties. It'll take an actual lawyer to sort this out, if the school pursues a UK legal case, which is a pretty big if.
blinky
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Location: Germany

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by blinky »

@ Sid, yes, I admit that I might have misread your advice a little there. But Pie Guy, as much as we know and love him, likes to get his audience talking. But, as to your suggestion - have you ever heard of a school doing this for a plane ticket and/or baggage allowance? I would never suggest that he/she need a lawyer in this case. Perhaps you are right that barking wouldn't help, but sometimes this is what bullies need.

It seems to me that it would be impossible, unless it were done through the bank who would then have recourse through finance laws and treaties. With all due respect to Turkey, their labour laws and frameworks don't have any credibility in the Western world either. This is one of many reasons why they can't get into the EU. Collection agencies in the UK, who have been known to buy outstanding debts from banks that go after expats who flee loans, wouldn't even touch this dispute. This situation, in particular, would not be feasible as the OP only owes the school around 1000 dollars. This would not even cover any court costs, if somehow in a miracle it did make it to civil court. Inside Turkey is a different matter completely.

Why don't we ever hear of people doing runners from Switzerland or Germany? It always seems to be China, ME, and Korea. Europe isn't my favourite place in the world because of how boring and expensive it can be, but at least there are better business practices/ labour law frameworks in place here.

In the end, the schools that cut corners only end up hurting themselves. Because of their bad reputations, they need Search and ISS to recruit decent people. A friend of mine worked for a school that recruited 38 people off of Search last year. The reason why so many people quit was because the school breached contract through the medical plan and housing. In the end, Search won with close to 80,000 dollars in recruitment fees. He figures the minor adjustments to the medical plan and housing would have been half of the visa fees, recruitment fees, baggage allowances, moving allowances, etc. that they had to pay in the end.
sid
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Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by sid »

Have I ever heard of a school going after a disappearing teacher for money? Yes, a few rare times. And this particular school seems willing to take whatever they can get. Sadly the OP has apparently already offered to pay them something for flights etc, which was a mistake. It will only encourage them, plus establish a written promise that the OP will pay, which could be very useful to the school in legal maneuvers. It might even establish UK jurisdiction for fulfillment of that promise, where no jurisdiction existed before. Thus is the risk of barking back. It establishes a paper trail that might end badly.
Amusing User Name
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Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by Amusing User Name »

My hazy recollection of my undergrad degree is more than a little hazy. Under a common law jurisdiction like the that of the UK's, an enforceable contract requires i. offer & acceptance, ii. an intention to create legal relations, iii. consideration, (an opportunity forgone or a benefit paid). From what I can see in the OP there's nothing to worry about. I wouldn't worry about it at all. Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@blinky

Whats enforceable about a phone call?
The may have a legally binding and enforceable contract.
No, the court will bother with it if the IS and their legal team has a meritorious claim and they pursue it. Would the actual damages out way the cost, highly unlikely. Some ISs and ownership may have other motives than economic, if they want to do it out of spite and its worth the money to them, then they can do that.

Yes, its rare and it was largely ownership that wanted to make an example of the IT. Have you seem the case of NB what parents can accomplish if they are motivated? This is Turkey, things could happen.

No they wont have to change to demand, the students are there, and the upper tier ISs have flat growth. If that was true the bottom tier third tier ISs would show some degree of improvement, thats not happening. The entire IE growth curve of IS and student are scaling in size the dynamics arent changing.
There are individual ownership that have ISs just so they can be president of their own IS, its status for them, they dont really care how the IS does.
That Guangdong IS will change its name, seat a new HOS, and put out some new literature, nothing will change, and they will still get ITs, even if they have to lower there standards.

Because planting ---- on a IS computer takes 20 seconds and no cost, which is far less than a $1000, and now they have good cause for dismissal, and leverage. There wont be any scandal, the IT will leave and keep their mouth shut.

Enrollment and applications were entirely unaffected at NBs IS, it didnt effect the bottom line at all.

This isnt a bank its a ., if they have the motivation to do it even at a loss they can. Banks care about the financial motivation, and the financial aspects only. They dont have an axe to grind, its just business to them.

The IS could file suit in Turkey and then attempt to domesticate the judgement, its probably not cost effective, but the IS might have other motivations.

It could be more than $1000, at least thats what the IS will claim.

ITs do runners in the EU, its usually for more pragmatic reasons than for abusive policies or practices, but there are abusive ISs in the EU as well.

Agree SA was the winner, and thats their business model.

None of the requirements @Amusing User Name cited are not vacated by lack of a physical written contract. They can likely all be established by email and actual actions.
sid
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:44 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by sid »

It's civil not criminal, so anyone can file a case. Doesn't mean they'll win, but it's not hard to file a complaint.
If the school now has a written (email) promise that the OP will pay them money, they no longer need to prove anything about the contract, breach, whatever. They can just make a simple case about unpaid debt.
TeacherGal
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 8:51 am

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by TeacherGal »

I taught in Turkey for almost 10 years. You have nothing to worry about. They probably won't contact you. If they do, just ignore them.
By any chance were you teaching in Tarsus? That would explain a lot.

In 2025 there will be 15,000 international schools? You've just made my day!
blinky
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Midnight Running and being chased advice

Post by blinky »

@ Psy Guy,

perhaps your claims of a possibility of the domestication of the case could be true. But even then, the employer would have to be completely in the right in a court case and fall within the contract laws within the UK. The things schools do, like the following: skimp on health plans, tax more than the contract states, change accommodation agreements would be a legal breach under UK law. I would have to talk to my brother, but I believe the IT could turn it around and demand compensation for lost salary, hardship, etc.

Again, Psy Guy, give me one example where a teacher left justifiably from a school that jerked them around, and then was sued and lost in their own country? You have been doing this gig for many years. Can you provide ONE example other than hypotheticals? You are a serious resource on this site. I have actually learned a lot from your views on here. You comment on schools from Tokyo to Tulsa. So if you do not have a specific example, who will?

Obviously , we are not the experts here on this, so we need to at least have common sense. This is a pretty serious matter. People give up their lives to go teach for schools like this who have no problem screwing them. These schools need to be given less credit for what they are and what they can actually do. This will ensure a healthier, more accountable market for all staff and students. The school my friend taught in Guangdong did, in fact, change their name. But thanks to this site and the growing awareness of these cowboy schools, people are wising up and not going to work there. As a result, enrolments are down and parents aren't happy. Like any industry, the best advertising is word of mouth.
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