European Pensions

[senator]

Ok, just how much money are we talking about for someone who works in WE and earns a pension after 10, 15, 20 years?

Only for people who actually know, please.

Thanks for any information.

[PsyGuy]

Way too many variables depends on the region to begin with. Switzerland and NE are at the top, and somewhere like England are pretty poor. What salary are we talking, someone whose at the top of their IS pay scale for X many years or someone who walks in at 5 years (max transfer cap) and needs to retire out 10 years later?

[Helen Back]

35 years in the UK will get you £8,000 a year. Hardly the road to riches.

[fine dude]

With 90K CHF annual salary in Switzerland, pension contributions over 20 years can fetch you about 1000- USD per month.

[senator]

Thank you.

That's what I always figured. Why, then, do people want to work in Europe? Usually high taxes, no housing, expensive cost of living AND a mediocre pension. I could have gotten 1100/month after just 10 years teaching in the U.S. AND have saved enough in my portfolio to have another 800-1000 per month draw - just after 10 years.

Can someone please explain this to me as it has always been a question mark - in my mind anyway.

[joe30]

@senator

My explanation for this is that many people are stupid and/or uninformed about the realities of life in Europe, the so-called dream location for international teachers. I'll add onto your list of negatives: it's much harder to get dates and/or girlfriend (for male teachers) in Europe, and people in North and West Europe generally have a 'live to work' attitude to life - everything is about career and it's considered a badge of honour to work long hours and be a slave to your employers every desire.

[PsyGuy]

Yes the UK pension program is pretty bad, its not anywhere near generous.

There was a topic in another forum that we did the math on for Switzerland, at $100K salary and only 10 years your looking at a pension of $1500/month, and you can find similar in several NE regions.

Its not mediocre in some regions (well its mediocre, but its livable), and as I discussed in that previous post, there is a lot more to a pension than the coin, its medical care, housing assistance and other social insurance programs. Those benefits arent available elsewhere, Asia isnt going to take care of you. If youre at an elite IS you have the salary, and some fast savings potential, and when your hitting the end of your career you want to maximize your savings and that means somewhere where you can get a pension and not go bankrupt when you find out you have cancer, or need a new hip replacement, and thats those EU regions that have the really high taxes.

[joe30]

Worth remembering plenty of teachers will derive no value from health benefits provided by working in an EU country. For example, as a UK citizen, I can return to the UK to get treatment for any serious medical illness free of charge. If you're from America it's different, although personally I don't see much point in trying to bank lots of money (or work in a place with high taxes, because it's essentially the same thing) just to have good medical cover in old age. Thailand for example has very good medical services at lowish prices. You're not going to be bankrupted for basic cancer treatment there. I don't think it's worth covering yourself against the chance of catching some rare and exotic illness that needs state of the art technology costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.

[PsyGuy]

@joe30

Thats not true, an IT is fully covered by whatever social insurance program is available while they are working in the country and paying taxes. Once you hit the required time for PR/citizenship (5-10 years) and you retire you continue to have full access to medical services and those social health programs.

Yeah Asia and Thailand have low cost medical care options available, cancer, a hip replacement, etc will still bankrupt you even at Thai prices. Its one think to have the flu, or even a broken bone (such as an arm) that requires a cast and still leaves you mobile. What do you do when your recovery is 6 months in bed and you need physical therapy afterwards. NO international medical plan is going to pay for that out of country they will medi-vac you back to your HOR.

If youve got a bank account stuffed with coin that youve put away from working in the ME and the Kingdom for a decade or two thats great. If your an IT who has nothing or very little going to work in Asia for a decade unless your at an elite IS means your retirement plans are all on you, its what you can save, and you can save anywhere, going to the EU will set you up with something for life after those 10 years, and wont leave you to die.

I get it the girls are better in LOS, and its a lot more fun, people develop different priorities as they get older, and your choice still doesnt account for the fact that Thailand or Asia will not take care of you, they give you nothing.

[Thames Pirate]

@joe30

You might have trouble getting dates, but have you considered that the issue might be your incorrect judgment and not that of the local women

Europeans do NOT have a live-to-work attitude. Quite the opposite--thus the long paid vacations, short work weeks, and a tendency not to hang out with coworkers or talk about jobs outside of work. It is considered inefficient to work overtime. I have friends here I have known since childhood, and I couldn't tell you what they do for a living.

Taxes are high, but not as insane as people seem to think. We found a comfortable flat with a stellar location in a fancy neighborhood that accommodates our dog on one salary (no kids). We won't be saving a lot, but we are hardly poor and can still afford to enjoy what our city and Europe in general have to offer. With two salaries we will be saving a ton,traveling more, and I will be able to resume my very expensive hobby (one that would be difficult or even impossible to pursue in most Asian cities and certainly much more expensive if it is available at all). We will, with two salaries, be far better off financially than we were with two salaries in the US--and we have access to the public benefits here (though as fairly young and healthy people healthcare is less of a consideration for us).

Quite frankly, there is also a lifestyle consideration. Not all ITs are in it for the coin, though as I said, the money can be good. I like living here,where I can pursue my hobby or learn a new one. I like sitting in a cafe with friends and a drunk and shooting the breeze. I like the ease of travel, the cleanliness, the friendly people. What is the point of making tons of money to live the life you want later when you can live the life you want now (and, if you're smart, later as well)? Incidentally,one of our coworkers is here with a trailing partner, a local girl he met in his previous European posting, while another is now married to a girl from here--and my sample size is really small. However, European women are looking for a man, not a boy and aren't looking for a green card. So if your goal is to play the field, stay in Thailand.

THAT is why people work in Europe--not because we are stupid. You really should rethink tour perspective if you ever do want to date a European girl.

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

I can appreciate your offense, Ive offended many a female member on this forum, but lets disassemble the claims and arguments presented.

You really dont know anything about the prior poster, there isnt nearly enough in any of their posts that allows you to confidently make such an accusation regarding their judgement. Your response is a reflex reaction, they may have an issue with maturity or judgement but you dont know if they do or not.

There can be a live to work culture and mentality in some regions of the EU, its a broad generalization but there are some NE regions that are more committed to work than you will find in France, Italy, etc. @joe is from the UK and in England they work longer then you find across the river in France.
Id agree though compared to Asia such as China and Japan where your expected to die for your company, yes there can be vast differences in the approach to work.

You are not saving a ton, I highly doubt your savings is in the range that needs to be measured by volume as opposed to counting.
Taxes can be seen as insane, it depends what your comparing them too going from 10%-15% or an Asian IS that pays your taxes for you (effectivly a tax rate of 0%) moving to an EU region with a tax rate of 40%-50% could be construed by some ITs as insane, its certainly higher.
Its very realistic that youd be better off financially in the EU than in the US but their are also a lot of opportunities in the US where you would be better off than in the EU, not everyone live in "the city" or "the bay", etc.

Yes theres a lifestyle consideration for the EU and the WE but for just as significant a group of ITs there is a lifestyle consideration for Asia as well. For every single woman/couple that wants the WE lifestyle I can show you a single guy that wants the JP or another Asian location lifestyle.

Not every woman in Asia wants a green card, many, many JP woman that marry westerners have no interest in relocating to the US/UK/AUS/CAN and no interest in another passport or residence card.

Lastly, the point @joe was making in his comment is that its easier for guys in Asia, and all the criticisms and judgements you can make, aside, thats true. It is easier, there are a lot of guys of various age and maturity levels who prioritize that easiness and availability. Western women want more, expect more, and for many guys in the education field, making $50K means woman arent interested. They want guys who look like a cologne model, have a six plus figure income, drive at least a BMW/Lexus/Mercedes. Those expectations drop drastically in Asia, where the average IT salary puts them on the upper side of average for income and salary status.

[Thames Pirate]

Oy. You talk about not knowing a poster, the presume to know about my savings?

We aren't saving much on 1 salary, but we are living well. On 2 salaries I can resume my hobby and we can still bank 15K Euros a year. More without hobby and dog. Yes, we can bank more in the Kingdom, but I am allowed to drive a car or wear what I want here, and that is worth 10K a year easily. We can also bank similarly in North Dakota if we are careful with our money, but then you are snowed in 8months a year and can't pursue the things we love, which is also worth 10K a year. My point, however, is that people have this misconception about cost of living and savings potential in Europe that just doesn't hold up. Can you save more elsewhere? Of course. Is it worth the cost to lifestyle? Personal preference, and choosing differently doesn't make one stupid.

I am in NE, and what I said about work holds true. You work at work, and then you are done. Even the Brits I know outside of school aren't all about work. I don't know what any of them do for a living. That doesn't mean they don't take their jobs seriously--as I said, they work at work, and yes, they work hard--so they can enjoy life outside of work. They are not slaves to their employers, they don't work long hours, and careers are not badges of honor--otherwise they'd talk about them.

I know not all Asian women are interested in green cards. However, it is often easier to get dates when you are the exotic westerner (particularly if you're white), especially in poorer economies, because you do tend to attract the shallow women wanting green cards. However, it is no easier or harder to have a serious relationship in Asia than in Europe or anywhere else. Relationships take work no matter where you live or how many available women there are. Easier to get dates implies a lack of interest in working to get a date with a woman interested in a relationship. Yes, shallow women move on--in all cultures ( so do shallow men). However, your assumption that western women want models with 6 figure salaries is, quite frankly, insulting as well as inaccurate--particularly in WE, where most men don't make that and most women have their own careers and income. Shallow women,maybe--and they aren't throwing themselves at teachers, it's true. So the easier to get dates part holds true for shallow women only. Thus my read on Joe.

I have no problem with wanting a certain Asian lifestyle. Of course there are many positives other than getting dates to living in Thailand or anywhere else. Heck, we considered a number of places and schools in Asia ourselves. I didn't call people who choose Asia stupid. My point was simply that people move to Europe in spite of the lower savings potential (compared to some countries in Asia, but not all) because of the lifestyle, not because they are "stupid."

[OzGrad]

Femininity still exists in Asia, guys like that :)

[Thames Pirate]

If by femininity you mean subservience, yes, some guys like that. Not guys worth dating or marrying.

[OzGrad]

By femininity I meant femininity.

Bitterness, not so attractive.