@PsyGuy
Well I don't think that compares apples with apples. A teacher who made it to Switzerland earning $100k a year must be decidedly above average in either skill, luck or both, so I don't think it's fair to compare to some plodder making $30k a year.
There's a lot of places in Asia that provide a fair bit more than $30k a year, and I think we should compare with a tier 1 school in Asia if we're going to have that Switzerland teacher in a tier 1 school there.
For example, the ESF scheme in Hong Kong goes up to HK$753,360 per year ($97,000), which is the place you'd be after 15 years experience. Link here: http://www.esf.edu.hk/about-esf/working ... e-teachers
Taxes are around 10-15% on that amount, but you get a 20% gratuity every two years, so that evens out. You also get HK$96,000 in housing allowance ($12,300). So after 15 years, assuming no TLR's, you're on a shade under $110,000 a year.
There's no pension provided like Switzerland as the MPF scheme (Hong Kong's version of the state pension) is deemed to be covered by the gratuity. But no one can seriously tell me huge savings can't be made on $110,000 a year in HK. Even if you're paying out $2,000 a month for an apartment, you're still looking at a mid-80's takehome salary. Drop an additional $35,000 on other cost of living, travel etc and you're still banking $50,000 a year at the top level. That's got to be at least comparable to the Swiss scheme, and likely better.
Now ESF is probably the best paying place in the region, but teaching at Shanghai American School, Singapore American, ISB Beijing etc are all going to be on substantially more than $30,000 even when starting, nevermind after they've put in the years of experience.
Agree a guy who sits at $30k in Asia all his life will never compete with a guy earning $100k anywhere, but I wouldn't expect them to, since the salary differential is too great.
Countries to start to work late in career for a pension?
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TeacherGal
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 8:51 am
Re: Countries to start to work late in career for a pension?
Looking at Psyguy's and Joe's posting with numbers, percentages and all that, it seems complicated and of course you wonder are those facts and numbers correct and are there any pitfalls that may change those numbers such as if you marry into the community, have children, your nationality, if you change nationality, if you for example you try the Switzerland thing but leave for a couple of years to teach in Africa then come back to Switzerland? There are so many variables. I'm not an accountant. I think it's hard to compare. I guess one trick to maximize your retirement happiness is to avoid the clearly bad places to teach and prepare for retirement. I can think of some really terrible places in the middle east with terrible benefit packages who hire low tier teachers. Any teacher who stayed there would need to get their head examined.
Discussion
@joe30
Even with apples and apples there is a lot of variation (go looking for apples at Shibuyas Food Show, and youll see vast difference between that and a red delicious you find at your local market).
Not really, CH has the highest average comp package at around $68K/year and thats average for a DT in a regulated/public/maintained DS. $100K/year isnt uncommon. You should see the comp packages at some of the elite boarding ISs.
You cant walk in too the top salary step in HK, theres a cap, youd have to have service before you hit the highest bands. You can walk into a $90K salary in CH, and the highest steps are still well above the top salaries in HK.
Taxes are about 15%, if you get a 20% gratuity every 2 years thats 10% every year, 10% isnt 15%. Your point isnt lost however, you will pay considerably more in taxes and contributions in CH than HK. What are you getting (or more accurately NOT getting) for those taxes and contributions. Your getting nothing in HK, you arent even getting health/medical once you leave the IS.
There are higher salaries in HK.
Yes you can save, but you an save in CH as well, and again the top salaries in CH are higher (considerably) than "THE" top salary in HK. Thats savings, maybe investing and those could be a retirement, but its not a pension, and depends on a lot of factors that need to happen to the ITs advantage. Switzerland isnt much different, its the top destination in a lot of destination categories for ITs, and those top elite boarding ISs are highly competitive, you can find similar efficient pension schemes in other parts of the EU, especially NE (Denmark, Sweden, etc). Lets get to core, you can do well at the top elite ISs anywhere. Flip the scenario, go to the Kingdom (Aramco/BAE) make $100K+ a year, tax free, living in a compound can be cheap if you want it to be and in 5-6 years you can leave with half a million in the bank, then you can retire at 50 go to the south of Thailand and live off your saving until the end of your days.
Yes $30K/year is plodding but thats why its an average and thats what averages are.
@TeacherGal
They are accurate assuming scenarios with a lot of assumptions, many of them werent even discussed.
If you marry into the community you will get citizenship much sooner. There is often a maximum pension you can draw, and often different rules for married couples, who essentially hit those maximum caps sooner and more often. If you have children you will have increased costs and expenses, though in many regions university is free or low cost. Any time spent out of country will prolong your time needed to make contributions into the pension programs and will delay your acquisition of citizenship.
This is going to sound harsh, but the reason your asking this question is because its complicated to you and you have been avoiding it throughout your career. If you want it really easy go back home and work in your regulated DE until your vested with a pension. If you stay in IE, than your doing what everyone else is doing your either planing for your retirement early, moving through tiers until your at an elite or your moving to the EU for a pension.
Even with apples and apples there is a lot of variation (go looking for apples at Shibuyas Food Show, and youll see vast difference between that and a red delicious you find at your local market).
Not really, CH has the highest average comp package at around $68K/year and thats average for a DT in a regulated/public/maintained DS. $100K/year isnt uncommon. You should see the comp packages at some of the elite boarding ISs.
You cant walk in too the top salary step in HK, theres a cap, youd have to have service before you hit the highest bands. You can walk into a $90K salary in CH, and the highest steps are still well above the top salaries in HK.
Taxes are about 15%, if you get a 20% gratuity every 2 years thats 10% every year, 10% isnt 15%. Your point isnt lost however, you will pay considerably more in taxes and contributions in CH than HK. What are you getting (or more accurately NOT getting) for those taxes and contributions. Your getting nothing in HK, you arent even getting health/medical once you leave the IS.
There are higher salaries in HK.
Yes you can save, but you an save in CH as well, and again the top salaries in CH are higher (considerably) than "THE" top salary in HK. Thats savings, maybe investing and those could be a retirement, but its not a pension, and depends on a lot of factors that need to happen to the ITs advantage. Switzerland isnt much different, its the top destination in a lot of destination categories for ITs, and those top elite boarding ISs are highly competitive, you can find similar efficient pension schemes in other parts of the EU, especially NE (Denmark, Sweden, etc). Lets get to core, you can do well at the top elite ISs anywhere. Flip the scenario, go to the Kingdom (Aramco/BAE) make $100K+ a year, tax free, living in a compound can be cheap if you want it to be and in 5-6 years you can leave with half a million in the bank, then you can retire at 50 go to the south of Thailand and live off your saving until the end of your days.
Yes $30K/year is plodding but thats why its an average and thats what averages are.
@TeacherGal
They are accurate assuming scenarios with a lot of assumptions, many of them werent even discussed.
If you marry into the community you will get citizenship much sooner. There is often a maximum pension you can draw, and often different rules for married couples, who essentially hit those maximum caps sooner and more often. If you have children you will have increased costs and expenses, though in many regions university is free or low cost. Any time spent out of country will prolong your time needed to make contributions into the pension programs and will delay your acquisition of citizenship.
This is going to sound harsh, but the reason your asking this question is because its complicated to you and you have been avoiding it throughout your career. If you want it really easy go back home and work in your regulated DE until your vested with a pension. If you stay in IE, than your doing what everyone else is doing your either planing for your retirement early, moving through tiers until your at an elite or your moving to the EU for a pension.
Re: Countries to start to work late in career for a pension?
@PsyGuy
I was under the impression that $100k was about as good as it gets for basic teachers pretty much anywhere (although leadership can earn a little more). Are you saying in Switzerland that's not the case? How much more is 'significantly' more than 100k? Those kind of questions need to be answered before we can say one region is better than another.
I'm not sure what 'step' is the maximum you can enter on the ESF scheme. The vast majority of schools do have an experience bar when you start working there though.
Agree you can do fine at an elite school anywhere. Was just saying there's certainly other ways to build a pension than working in Western/Northern Europe, and I wouldn't take a job just to get a pension...have to look at the total comp package and quality of life. For instance, I'm of the opinion life in Western Europe absolutely sucks compared to Asia, but a lot of IT's seem to think it's the holy grail of teaching.
I was under the impression that $100k was about as good as it gets for basic teachers pretty much anywhere (although leadership can earn a little more). Are you saying in Switzerland that's not the case? How much more is 'significantly' more than 100k? Those kind of questions need to be answered before we can say one region is better than another.
I'm not sure what 'step' is the maximum you can enter on the ESF scheme. The vast majority of schools do have an experience bar when you start working there though.
Agree you can do fine at an elite school anywhere. Was just saying there's certainly other ways to build a pension than working in Western/Northern Europe, and I wouldn't take a job just to get a pension...have to look at the total comp package and quality of life. For instance, I'm of the opinion life in Western Europe absolutely sucks compared to Asia, but a lot of IT's seem to think it's the holy grail of teaching.
Reply
@joe30
For forum purposes $100K is the ceiling that an IT can walk into at a new IS. It doesnt represent what the highest salaries an IT can work their way up the salary scale and achieve within an IS.
Highest salaries available gets murky. It depends on how you define "available". Some ISs increase the service years between steps as you get closer to the top (2 or more years of service to reach the next step). Some ISs have a higher/additional scale that is discretionary (you need to be appointed as a "senior" IT, or movement up the scale from a certain point is at the discretion of leadership). There are ITs earning $150K salaries, Ive seen IT scales that are $210K+, but dont know of anyone actually getting them.
What we are really disagreeing over is a definition of terms: retirement and pension. One can certainly save for retirement, one can make investments in planing their own retirement, and one can qualify for a pension that provides for their retirement. All of those (savings, investments, pensions) are forms of retirement, but saving and investing are not pensions.
Thats the trend, single guys generally are happier in Asia and women and those with families are generally pursuing WE.
For forum purposes $100K is the ceiling that an IT can walk into at a new IS. It doesnt represent what the highest salaries an IT can work their way up the salary scale and achieve within an IS.
Highest salaries available gets murky. It depends on how you define "available". Some ISs increase the service years between steps as you get closer to the top (2 or more years of service to reach the next step). Some ISs have a higher/additional scale that is discretionary (you need to be appointed as a "senior" IT, or movement up the scale from a certain point is at the discretion of leadership). There are ITs earning $150K salaries, Ive seen IT scales that are $210K+, but dont know of anyone actually getting them.
What we are really disagreeing over is a definition of terms: retirement and pension. One can certainly save for retirement, one can make investments in planing their own retirement, and one can qualify for a pension that provides for their retirement. All of those (savings, investments, pensions) are forms of retirement, but saving and investing are not pensions.
Thats the trend, single guys generally are happier in Asia and women and those with families are generally pursuing WE.