Hello everyone. My wife and I are just now beginning the process of finding positions internationally for the 2017-18 school year, her as a teacher and myself as a school counselor. I know we're early in the process, but we just want to do as much before schools start hiring as possible. We want to work with one of the big agencies (ISS, Search Associates, CIS, etc.), but aren't sure which is best. I've read a ton of different reviews, but thought I'd see what people here thought, as well as any other advice for a couple just starting down this road.
A little background: Before the 2018-18 school year, my wife, Australian, will have her Master's in Teaching from Sydney University and 2 years of teaching experience in the U.S. (English & History). I, American, will just have my Master's in Counseling from DePaul University and a year long internship, although I have about 7 years of experience working in schools from tutoring to coaching, as well as coaching high school and college aged kids overseas. We don't have any kids and are pretty open to working just about anywhere, although we of course have certain preferences.
Any advice regarding which agency to work with or specifically which job fairs to attend is welcome (we were also planning on attending the UNI job fair since the fee is pretty low). Also, for me, I've read that schools want 2 references from supervisors, which might be a bit difficult for me. Will references from other schools I've worked at work? Thanks in advance for any help.
Teaching couple taking first steps towards IS. Help :)
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Re: Teaching couple taking first steps towards IS. Help :)
@ronniec,
School counseling positions are often some of the first ones that schools work to fill. What level do you want to work at? When will you actually complete your degree? There is a lot of need for school counselors, especially at the high school level, but one of the issues is that often a big part of the job is university counseling, which most programs don't tackle.
I'd say you as the school counselor would be more marketable, but it might be a concern for schools if you're not finishing your program until the Spring or Summer. It sounds from your email that you're just finishing your 500 hour internship in schools this year, so I'm guessing you'll finish up in May or June 2017. If that's the case, it may make things a bit trickier.
I think you should work with Search Associates if they will take you on as a candidate, so you and your wife will be viewed as a teaching couple. They may not if your degree isn't completed. SA offered a pre-Conference event for school counselors several years back when I was job hunting and I'm guessing they still do.
If they don't take you as a candidate, it may still be worthwhile having your wife sign up as she can try to bring you in through her letters of interest and on her account.
Either way, I'd also recommend signing up for TIEonline, which is really a job board, but doesn't cost too much. I've seen jobs for counselors pop up there late in the hiring season (April - June), though the majority get posted in the fall to winter. The UNI job fair could be a good idea too.
Once you get 2 - 3 years experience as a counselor overseas you'll be very marketable especially if your wife gets IB teaching experience and you still don't have dependents when you go looking.
Eion
School counseling positions are often some of the first ones that schools work to fill. What level do you want to work at? When will you actually complete your degree? There is a lot of need for school counselors, especially at the high school level, but one of the issues is that often a big part of the job is university counseling, which most programs don't tackle.
I'd say you as the school counselor would be more marketable, but it might be a concern for schools if you're not finishing your program until the Spring or Summer. It sounds from your email that you're just finishing your 500 hour internship in schools this year, so I'm guessing you'll finish up in May or June 2017. If that's the case, it may make things a bit trickier.
I think you should work with Search Associates if they will take you on as a candidate, so you and your wife will be viewed as a teaching couple. They may not if your degree isn't completed. SA offered a pre-Conference event for school counselors several years back when I was job hunting and I'm guessing they still do.
If they don't take you as a candidate, it may still be worthwhile having your wife sign up as she can try to bring you in through her letters of interest and on her account.
Either way, I'd also recommend signing up for TIEonline, which is really a job board, but doesn't cost too much. I've seen jobs for counselors pop up there late in the hiring season (April - June), though the majority get posted in the fall to winter. The UNI job fair could be a good idea too.
Once you get 2 - 3 years experience as a counselor overseas you'll be very marketable especially if your wife gets IB teaching experience and you still don't have dependents when you go looking.
Eion
Re: Teaching couple taking first steps towards IS. Help :)
Thanks for the response @eion_padraig. I'm glad to hear school counselors are an area of need, but I do know that my lack of experience is going to be an issue. I'm hoping that my life experience (living in multiple countries, coaching sports, and having a career before becoming a counselor) may help a bit.
As to your question, I plan on working with high school aged students, and my program at DePaul has had several courses on preparing for college.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you were mentioning about only having one of us sign up for SA. Can we still attend the fairs together that way? My understanding is that a lot of positions get filled that way. Would we be better off contacting schools directly? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.
As to your question, I plan on working with high school aged students, and my program at DePaul has had several courses on preparing for college.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you were mentioning about only having one of us sign up for SA. Can we still attend the fairs together that way? My understanding is that a lot of positions get filled that way. Would we be better off contacting schools directly? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Re: Teaching couple taking first steps towards IS. Help :)
I'm not the best one to talk about SA. I tend to side with signing up with them if you and your wife get to be candidates. Their database is quite useful. I signed up for them once, but I was hired well in advance of the Cambridge fair that they approved me to attend. I was not given a choice on which fair to attend. The way I've heard others talk about it, they slot you for the fairs where they think you are most likely to be hired.
Say for instance that SA decides they won't take you on as a candidate because you haven't completed your degree and credential. However, they will probably allow your wife as a candidate because she has the credential and 2 years experience. If she is invited to the fair, then you can sort of go as a trailing spouse but in her letter of interests and interviews she can mention you. I haven't done this before. Some people on the forum have discussed this kind of thing. Since you're around, they may interview you as well. I'm sure it's frowned upon by SA because if you're not a candidate they're not getting paid for you getting hired.
When I was offered a chance to go to the fair, my wife didn't have 2 years of experience either because she just was set to finish her degree at the end of the school year, so they said she could be a "intern candidate" which meant she could go. It seemed a bit silly, but it would have let her set up interviews. As I said, we got hired well before the fair, but I also had experience as a counselor.
It doesn't hurt to apply to the schools directly either if you know which schools have openings in the areas you and your wife are interested in. TIEonline post international jobs and it doesn't cost too much to access and when I was a candidate with SA there were jobs posted there that were not on SA's list of jobs. International ACAC also posts college counseling and international school counseling jobs on it's website which doesn't require you to be a member to view, though the majority of the positions listed are university recruiter positions. ISCA has started a job board for members that will list international school counseling positions. I don't know if many are listed there yet.
So I'd say your life experience will be helpful in so far as it may put you ahead of other newly-trained school counselors who have not worked in schools and don't have those experiences. However most people who go into international school counseling have some if not most of those life experiences you talk about. What it likely to do is convince recruiters that you know you like working with young people and living overseas won't be a particularly challenging situation for you.
That's good that DePaul's program trains you up on some of those issues. It sounds like programs are starting to tackle some of those issues even though the ACA and ASCA (in the past at least) didn't see much of a need for it. I'd talk about that in letters of interest and/or your resume. I suspect they probably only covered the basics and probably focused much more on US university admissions, which generally isn't enough, but it's better than a lot of school counseling programs out there.
Once you get your 2 - 3 years experience working overseas as a school counselor, you and your wife should be very marketable for the next job. If I were in your situation, I would try to aim for a place where your wife will get IB teaching experience. Also, going to conferences where you get to meet other school counselors is very important. Once you know people through conferences it will help your job search tremendously. Often you'll hear about jobs that are going to come up well before they are announced.
Eion
Say for instance that SA decides they won't take you on as a candidate because you haven't completed your degree and credential. However, they will probably allow your wife as a candidate because she has the credential and 2 years experience. If she is invited to the fair, then you can sort of go as a trailing spouse but in her letter of interests and interviews she can mention you. I haven't done this before. Some people on the forum have discussed this kind of thing. Since you're around, they may interview you as well. I'm sure it's frowned upon by SA because if you're not a candidate they're not getting paid for you getting hired.
When I was offered a chance to go to the fair, my wife didn't have 2 years of experience either because she just was set to finish her degree at the end of the school year, so they said she could be a "intern candidate" which meant she could go. It seemed a bit silly, but it would have let her set up interviews. As I said, we got hired well before the fair, but I also had experience as a counselor.
It doesn't hurt to apply to the schools directly either if you know which schools have openings in the areas you and your wife are interested in. TIEonline post international jobs and it doesn't cost too much to access and when I was a candidate with SA there were jobs posted there that were not on SA's list of jobs. International ACAC also posts college counseling and international school counseling jobs on it's website which doesn't require you to be a member to view, though the majority of the positions listed are university recruiter positions. ISCA has started a job board for members that will list international school counseling positions. I don't know if many are listed there yet.
So I'd say your life experience will be helpful in so far as it may put you ahead of other newly-trained school counselors who have not worked in schools and don't have those experiences. However most people who go into international school counseling have some if not most of those life experiences you talk about. What it likely to do is convince recruiters that you know you like working with young people and living overseas won't be a particularly challenging situation for you.
That's good that DePaul's program trains you up on some of those issues. It sounds like programs are starting to tackle some of those issues even though the ACA and ASCA (in the past at least) didn't see much of a need for it. I'd talk about that in letters of interest and/or your resume. I suspect they probably only covered the basics and probably focused much more on US university admissions, which generally isn't enough, but it's better than a lot of school counseling programs out there.
Once you get your 2 - 3 years experience working overseas as a school counselor, you and your wife should be very marketable for the next job. If I were in your situation, I would try to aim for a place where your wife will get IB teaching experience. Also, going to conferences where you get to meet other school counselors is very important. Once you know people through conferences it will help your job search tremendously. Often you'll hear about jobs that are going to come up well before they are announced.
Eion
Response
I disagree with @eion_padraig Counselors are one of the positions ISs work to hire sooner rather than later, but its only true of there being demand for certain counselors, and those counselors are they ones that specialize in Uni and career counseling. There really isnt any demand or pressure for recruiting the mental health (MH) side of the counselor position. eion_padraig and I continually disagree on this but the MH part of an IE counselor is very minimal, its mostly acute intervention that you refer out and then monitor. You will spend more time on the SPED/SEN/LD consultation then you will in clinical session. Most of the MH tasking of a counselor is more student management and administration types of tasking. You will find yourself organizing the weekly coffee meet and greet with house and grade parents then you will in a clinical session, and rarely, rarely will you ever have to deal with something like violence or abuse. Your not going to get teen girls with black eyes in your office trying to convince them they didnt run into a door at their boyfriends. As to the administration tasking, counselor is considered a junior leadership appointment, you will organize the master schedule and that in itself can be a lot of power. No one in the faculty will really like you or trust you. As for student management counselors often fill the role of a dean of students, a first step in behavior management issues or conflict resolution before an AP/VP/DP gets involved.
I do agree that Uni and career counseling is where the demand is and the vast number of programs provide little if any training and experience.
Will your masters in counseling program issue you a educator credential as a school counselor, or will you just have a degree and maybe LPC? Some states require you to have prior teaching experience to qualify for a school counselor credential or have other requirements beyond completing a degree. If you arent getting a credential and you dont have the coveted Uni/Career counseling experience than you are very likely to find yourself unmarketable as a counselor, in which case your spouse is more marketable.
In regards to premium agencies of which there are two Search (SA) and International School Services (ISS) really depends on the caliber of the candidate you are. CIS is an option and costs nothing to join but some work. If you were solely focused on WE as a location you could go it alone with them. Its unlikely any of the elite tier EU ISs would be interested in your resumes. Of the two premium agencies SA is the general purpose everyone gets about the same kind of treatment. SA generates revenue ona fixed scale, doesnt matter the IS or the position or the candidate its a flat fee paid by the IS per hire. There isnt much incentive to put much energy in any one candidate, and candidates can vary greatly in quality, some are more helpful than others, and some just take your fee and give you access to the database and an invitation.
ISS is more like a boutique agency, if your a really valuable candidate you will get more attention from ISS than you will with SA, the other side of that coin is that if you arent very valuable you get ignored to the point of wondering if they even know you exist.
SA has an intern option that can get you into the database and fair, but its not of much value outside your candidate profile and stored references. One of you is likely the weaker candidate, and unless you get an invitation to the BKK fair by the time the BOS fair happens counselor vacancies will have been filled. This means you can still attend the fair and attend signup assisting your spouse, and can attend interviews, but unless an IS has a counselor vacancy there isnt much utility in attending. Counselor is not one of those positions an IS creates to fill a vacancy for a teaching couple, and your spouses subject area and experience while getting you in the door are just barely the minimum.
If you cant get one of the mega fair invitations and you only get a dump fair, than the only value SA offers is the job database and you dont need two accounts to access it. You can identify vacancies and apply directly to their email.
I would strongly recommend CIS and TIE, its very low cost and one account will give you both access. Ina addition TES is a free option.
UNI is a waste, its one year attendance to one fair, a very small database, and unless your really focused on CSA you can do just as well with SA or ISS, have access to a much larger database for multiple years, and the UNI fair is almost always in the middle of a blizzard.
After 2-3 years of experience if you can get Uni Counseling experience you will be much more marketable. It will likely be a number of years until your spouse can get IB experience and likely a few more before they get DIP experience. It would be well advised that your spouse move into a school leaving level quickly. Once youre successful at that performance level the curriculum whether DIP/AP or A levels is highly congruent.
Your life experiences arent worth anything, everyone does ASPs/coaching, unless your coaching is highly esoteric (such as equestrian) and the IS has a popular riding program, or the like coaching doesnt mean much. Most of the other candidate you will be going up against will have similer experiences. You can use the PsyGuy Application Scoring system to get a very rough idea of your marketability (below).
I would advise you start looking at ways to distinguish yourself. Since you are still looking at 2017 before you are ready, finding anyway of getting into a Uni enrollment or admissions department even if its as a second internship would increase your marketability. If that isnt an option mentoring opportunity with a Uni couching program would be a significant improvement. I agree that the few courses you have had probably covered the basics of the American education system, and that isnt going to be enough, but its better than the nothing that most school counselor programs provide.
At the end of the day youre barely a teaching couple with minimal qualifications and resumes that as far as IE is concerned is a lot of white space.
PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System:
1) 1 pt / 2 years Experience (Max 10 Years)
2) 1 pt - Advance Degree (Masters)
3) 1 pt - Cross Certified (Must be schedule-able)
4) 1 pt - Curriculum Experience (IB, AP, IGCSE)
5) 1pt - Logistical Hire (Single +.5 pt, Couple +1 pt)
6) .5 pt - Previous International School Experience (standard 2 year contract)
7) .5 pt - Leadership Experience/Role (+.25 HOD, +.5 Coordinator)
8) .5 pt - Extra Curricular (Must be schedule-able)
9) .25 pt - Special Populations (Must be qualified)
10) .25 pt - Special Skill Set (Must be documentable AND marketable)
IT CLASSES:
1) INTERN ITs have a score around 0
2) ENTRY ITs have a score around 2
3) CAREER ITs have a score around 4
4) PROFESSIONAL ITs have a score around 6
5) MASTER ITs have a score around 8
I do agree that Uni and career counseling is where the demand is and the vast number of programs provide little if any training and experience.
Will your masters in counseling program issue you a educator credential as a school counselor, or will you just have a degree and maybe LPC? Some states require you to have prior teaching experience to qualify for a school counselor credential or have other requirements beyond completing a degree. If you arent getting a credential and you dont have the coveted Uni/Career counseling experience than you are very likely to find yourself unmarketable as a counselor, in which case your spouse is more marketable.
In regards to premium agencies of which there are two Search (SA) and International School Services (ISS) really depends on the caliber of the candidate you are. CIS is an option and costs nothing to join but some work. If you were solely focused on WE as a location you could go it alone with them. Its unlikely any of the elite tier EU ISs would be interested in your resumes. Of the two premium agencies SA is the general purpose everyone gets about the same kind of treatment. SA generates revenue ona fixed scale, doesnt matter the IS or the position or the candidate its a flat fee paid by the IS per hire. There isnt much incentive to put much energy in any one candidate, and candidates can vary greatly in quality, some are more helpful than others, and some just take your fee and give you access to the database and an invitation.
ISS is more like a boutique agency, if your a really valuable candidate you will get more attention from ISS than you will with SA, the other side of that coin is that if you arent very valuable you get ignored to the point of wondering if they even know you exist.
SA has an intern option that can get you into the database and fair, but its not of much value outside your candidate profile and stored references. One of you is likely the weaker candidate, and unless you get an invitation to the BKK fair by the time the BOS fair happens counselor vacancies will have been filled. This means you can still attend the fair and attend signup assisting your spouse, and can attend interviews, but unless an IS has a counselor vacancy there isnt much utility in attending. Counselor is not one of those positions an IS creates to fill a vacancy for a teaching couple, and your spouses subject area and experience while getting you in the door are just barely the minimum.
If you cant get one of the mega fair invitations and you only get a dump fair, than the only value SA offers is the job database and you dont need two accounts to access it. You can identify vacancies and apply directly to their email.
I would strongly recommend CIS and TIE, its very low cost and one account will give you both access. Ina addition TES is a free option.
UNI is a waste, its one year attendance to one fair, a very small database, and unless your really focused on CSA you can do just as well with SA or ISS, have access to a much larger database for multiple years, and the UNI fair is almost always in the middle of a blizzard.
After 2-3 years of experience if you can get Uni Counseling experience you will be much more marketable. It will likely be a number of years until your spouse can get IB experience and likely a few more before they get DIP experience. It would be well advised that your spouse move into a school leaving level quickly. Once youre successful at that performance level the curriculum whether DIP/AP or A levels is highly congruent.
Your life experiences arent worth anything, everyone does ASPs/coaching, unless your coaching is highly esoteric (such as equestrian) and the IS has a popular riding program, or the like coaching doesnt mean much. Most of the other candidate you will be going up against will have similer experiences. You can use the PsyGuy Application Scoring system to get a very rough idea of your marketability (below).
I would advise you start looking at ways to distinguish yourself. Since you are still looking at 2017 before you are ready, finding anyway of getting into a Uni enrollment or admissions department even if its as a second internship would increase your marketability. If that isnt an option mentoring opportunity with a Uni couching program would be a significant improvement. I agree that the few courses you have had probably covered the basics of the American education system, and that isnt going to be enough, but its better than the nothing that most school counselor programs provide.
At the end of the day youre barely a teaching couple with minimal qualifications and resumes that as far as IE is concerned is a lot of white space.
PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System:
1) 1 pt / 2 years Experience (Max 10 Years)
2) 1 pt - Advance Degree (Masters)
3) 1 pt - Cross Certified (Must be schedule-able)
4) 1 pt - Curriculum Experience (IB, AP, IGCSE)
5) 1pt - Logistical Hire (Single +.5 pt, Couple +1 pt)
6) .5 pt - Previous International School Experience (standard 2 year contract)
7) .5 pt - Leadership Experience/Role (+.25 HOD, +.5 Coordinator)
8) .5 pt - Extra Curricular (Must be schedule-able)
9) .25 pt - Special Populations (Must be qualified)
10) .25 pt - Special Skill Set (Must be documentable AND marketable)
IT CLASSES:
1) INTERN ITs have a score around 0
2) ENTRY ITs have a score around 2
3) CAREER ITs have a score around 4
4) PROFESSIONAL ITs have a score around 6
5) MASTER ITs have a score around 8