Brexit Implications on EU

MartElla
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by MartElla »

higgsboson wrote:
> @Martella - I actually meant opening the mainland European market to a
> larger and more diverse pool of teachers than just teachers from the UK
> would be better for students. However, I do agree with finedude that
> American teachers are preferred over British teachers. Brits are just too
> high strung and suffer from what can only be described as a stick up the
> wazoo. American teachers are more laid back and easier to relate to.
> Students just prefer American teachers over British teachers, at least in
> my experience. I'm not saying Brits aren't effective and hard-working;
> American teachers are just more effective because they develop better
> relationships with teachers.

Stop lying.

American teachers are not preferred over British teachers. Nor, on the whole, is it the case vice versa. It's all about the individual. Effective is not a term that's ever been applied to your career, that much is obvious. Presumably Peter Higgs would have been more "effective" as an American?
reisgio
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by reisgio »

higgsboson wrote:
> From what I'm seeing on CNN and MSNBC, they is an urge to punish the UK so
> maybe American teachers will now have an actual advantage over UK teachers
> - good news for everyone IMHO, especially for the students.

Keep watching CNN and MSNBC and I am sure all will be well for you! Ha ha. Everyone is so surprised by the election result even though polls indicated this was quite possible for weeks. The reaction says more about the thoughtless sanctimonious "educated elite" than it does about anything else. Many such people watch CNN and MSNBC and feel they are watching reality. Enjoy!
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@fine dude

No its not a misconception, its a red herring. Your position is to operationally define a national curriculum as one that culminates in a national exam, I disagree with that, its a definition that is at best arbitrary, and at worst grossly misaligned.
It could be successfully argued that the College Boards AP program is a national examination for US students. More AP exams are taken annually than A levels.
Whether you agree or not Common Core, and NexGen (science) is while not a mandate a defacto curriculum framework.
Even if you dismiss all of those, the very real status quo is that while there is variation between state curriculum, the vast majority of the differences are in technical minutia. You wont find a state without a 4x4 College Prep graduation route. Biology examines life processes, literature still explores the cannon of literary masters (Shakespeare, Chaucer, Milton), world history still covers the major formative conflicts through World War II and beyond. Maths still consists of algebra, geometry, trigonometry and calculus, students in arts still express themselves in 2D and 3D medium, and playing a piano or violin doesnt differ across the pond (regardless of which way you go). About the only noticeable differences you find is in PHE/Sports/Athletics. US has its emphasis on American football, basketball, baseball and cheer and UK on football, rugby, lacrosse and netball. A lack of codified unification in the curriculum framework does not mean there isnt a known curriculum.
fine dude
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by fine dude »

@PsyGuy
Another misconception is equating AP to national curriculum. It's just a college prep course. Curriculum = standards + benchmarks + scope and sequence guidelines + content + skills

US doesn't have one common set of the above-mentioned framework for K-12 for all its students. Bush Jr. tried to create one but didn't work. Here is an eye-opener for you from ASCD. I think they know what they are talking about.
http://www.ascd.org/ASCD/pdf/journals/e ... _smith.pdf

Stop misleading teachers.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@fine dude

Than you should stop misleading teachers.

First, thats your definition of a curriculum. Second, your citation is another opinion, taken from the article you cite "The fact is a national curriculum can mean different things-and in fact it does have different meanings in different countries". The UK model of a curriculum is just that a model, and all models are wrong.
Moomintroll
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Re: Response

Post by Moomintroll »

PsyGuy wrote:
> As for IE there are going to be two immediate benefits, first I agree with
> @sitka, in the realm of native English speaking westerners which lower and
> middle tier ISs need to employ it will remove the Britain advantage and
> place AUS/CAN/US on equal logistics in recruitment. Brits wont be the
> "go to" source and preference for late season WE and EU
> recruiting.

This is not likely considering Britain will almost certainly remain part of the EEA. There's no difference between an EU and an EEA citizen in terms of freedom of movement, so it will still be easier for European schools to hire a Brit than an American/Canadian/Australian.
auntiesocial
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by auntiesocial »

It's very amusing reading Americans discuss how 'cool' and 'relaxed' they are compated with Brits.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Moomintroll

We disagree with the certainty of England joining the EEA, it would be the most face saving, but its not Brexit lite, and the EU isnt likely to give England a sweetheart trade deal just so they can establish that leaving the EU will have grave and serious consequences, essentially the EU will make an example of England. Joining the EEA would have all the same consequences as far as trade and immigration would require of an EU country, it wouldnt change anything except that England wouldnt get to vote on the rules and laws effecting it. Brexit only works for England if they can negotiate favorable trade deals with independent nations that gives it side entrance to the common market at better or at least equal terms than they have now, otherwise they lose Scotland, and northern Ireland and maybe Wales and England cant lose both the rest of the Kingdom and the common market it gains as an EU member and survive as a global anything.

My prediction is that England will sit on the article 50 button effectively indefinitely, and that at some point the EU will just consider the referendum an internal political matter that is more saber rattling than saber.
hmmm
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by hmmm »

MartElla wrote:
"American teachers are not preferred over British teachers. Nor, on the whole, is it the case vice versa. It's all about the individual."

This is absolutely untrue. Should it be about the individual? Of course. Is it? In the case of EU schools - NO! What is it about? Which passport you hold. Period. I do not wish to get into the whole discussion of who is 'better' at teaching, such generalizations don't work at all - I've worked with great British, N. American, and down under teachers who were liked very much by their students (and colleagues) ... and I've worked with freaks from the same places too, who were repulsive to all. In that sense it is about the individual, not his/her nationality.

However, the hiring inequality based on the teacher's country of origin is too prominent not to bring up, and your statement about there being no preference given is entirely untrue. The preference in Europe is for the British passport, not for the quality of the individual. Two months ago I was the top candidate for a job in an EU country. I had the contract sent over and everything. When I filled in the required forms and sent them back I got the response ... "Oops, we thought you had an EU passport? If not, we're very sorry, but we have to withdraw the offer." Fifth time this has happened to me. Not to mention all of the job ads I can't even apply to, as they outright list having an EU passport as a 'requirement', right alongside teaching experience, etc. Total BS, not to mention it is in violation of a number of international human rights laws.

I honestly hope that Brexit will help us even out the playing field, end social inequality in IS in EU, and bring back the spirit of liberté, égalité, fraternité to the IS hiring process in Europe.

I would also bet that if that does happen a number of teachers currently privileged by the system will end up surprised that they may not actually be the cat's meow and the number one hiring choice for the schools they apply to ... once it is all about the individual, and not the preferential treatment. Here's hoping!
fine dude
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by fine dude »

@hmmm
I agree with you for the most part. However, people from certain backgrounds, thanks to their national educational systems, are averse to technology use in the classroom, not to mention their outright and open criticism of teachers' who are more pro ed tech.
Coming to visas, it all depends on the negotiations between Theresa May's cabinet and the EU members. At the end of the day, free movement of people and goods is a two-way street, and the former can't cherry-pick. As you mentioned, it does level the pedagogical field, particularly in countries like Switzerland, Italy, France (not my favourite place to teach anymore in light of recent events) etc. if the British teachers are officially considered non-EU citizens, just like many of us.
My guess is that to have a minimal impact on both sides, they will still support the status quo for skilled and professional workers or impose quotas.
Ifyousayso
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Re: Reply

Post by Ifyousayso »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Moomintroll
>
> We disagree with the certainty of England joining the EEA, it would be the
> most face saving, but its not Brexit lite, and the EU isnt likely to give
> England a sweetheart trade deal just so they can establish that leaving the
> EU will have grave and serious consequences, essentially the EU will make
> an example of England. Joining the EEA would have all the same consequences
> as far as trade and immigration would require of an EU country, it wouldnt
> change anything except that England wouldnt get to vote on the rules and
> laws effecting it. Brexit only works for England if they can negotiate
> favorable trade deals with independent nations that gives it side entrance
> to the common market at better or at least equal terms than they have now,
> otherwise they lose Scotland, and northern Ireland and maybe Wales and
> England cant lose both the rest of the Kingdom and the common market it
> gains as an EU member and survive as a global anything.
>
> My prediction is that England will sit on the article 50 button effectively
> indefinitely, and that at some point the EU will just consider the
> referendum an internal political matter that is more saber rattling than
> saber.
Please stop calling the UK England, you would not call the USA Texas?
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

I concur with @hmmm

Technology isnt the alpha and omega in the classroom, Ive seen ITs who have tech intensive lessons that just spend more time on the tech than what could have been done faster and better on paper. Ive also experienced ITs that had lessons that depended on tech that never really worked the way they were intended. Ive also seen heavily tech enthusiastic ITs try to make a lesson more tech savvy and accomplish nothing.

I agree that much will depend on what the PM can negotiate, and unless we look much further down the road no one seems eager to give England a deal that will allow free exchange of some national citizens and not others. Even assuming that some of the EU stakeholders would be open to such an arrangement it would set a very negative precedent for those EU members, that England can control its immigration with preferred partners allowing exchange and admittance and less desirable EU partners being shown the door. England doesnt care about the immigration of German/French/Etc. nationals, its undesirables they want to keep out. At this time those preferred partner EU members just cant take the pressure and negative PR of making that kind of deal.
Ifyousayso
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by Ifyousayso »

@PsyGuy. England is not the UK. Please get this right, it's important.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Ifyousayso

I am so aware. I used England within the appropriate context as I intended. Brexit was not a UK decision, it was an English one, if Brexit is fully implemented and they push the article 50 button, than Scotland if almost certainly going to leave the UK and more likely than not Northern Ireland will rejoin Ireland and leave the UK, this leaves England and Wales, and thats great Brittan not a United Kingdom.
Ifyousayso
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Re: Brexit Implications on EU

Post by Ifyousayso »

Glad you remembered about the Welsh. Westminster is the government of the UK. This includes all four countries. If they trigger article 50 all four will leave. Scotland will not be exempt anymore than London or Liverpool will be exempt. If Scotland does then leave it will be a very long process for them to then rejoin the EU. This process will be heavily hampered by Spain which has its own agenda. What you have hypothesised about is something that will be decades into the future for Scotland if ever and is unlikely for Northern Ireland due to the history of the region.
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