@Thames Pirate
Similar rational for why you believe it is accurate. The IS hasnt followed through, you havent reached the final destination of your relationship with them yet.
Authentication depends greatly on the assumptions and base root of the source for those authentications. Multi-modal verification systems are no more valid than uni-modal systems that rely on the same assumptions and source when those assumptions or sources lack system integrity.
As I have addressed in previous messages, your calculations may be in error, resulting in miscalculation.
This forum is predominately gossip, as all forums since the Greeks and Romans have been. Water is also wet. I however find and derive great utility from the forum of gossip this forum traffics in. I do not share an equal degree of utility in the form of gossip exclusive to your scenario, nor am I likely to change that position based on the persuasiveness of your claims.
Independent verification is not authentication. If I show a room full of ITs a red rose though a window, but employ a filter in the window pane to alter the perception of the rose to appear blue, their claims and consensus does not change the color of the rose.
Your spouse could be randomly correct, or grossly inaccurate. If everyone you meat deceives you and you catch 50% of them believing thats extremely successful, in reality you were only accurate half the time, and missed a LOT of deception.
Maybe the HOS only appeared to be an easy read, because thats what they wanted you to believe. Thats a more likely explanation, unless the HOS was inexperienced in recruiting. Good recruiters make the story both believable but emote authenticity.
I suppose it depends how deep the water is when the relationship sinks.
Theres a lot of oversight an regulation and at the least defense costs, this forum recently altered its venues to allow a particular type of dialog.
Contracts are instruments of commitment and consistency within the pervasiveness of ego.
You may be confusing discreditation with discourse.
How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
The IS HAS followed through as far as can be done short of time travel! They did letter for letter what they said they would, and we now have the contract. And we won't reach the final destination of our journey with them until we are ready to move on to the next assignment or even after that. I wouldn't want to be at the final destination now--we're at the start, and I fully intend on enjoying the journey of my dream job. Isn't that the point, after all?
Why do you say that our data relies on assumption and lacks system integrity? What precisely are we assuming? What system checks would you have us put in place to ensure that the data is accurate? Or were you just trying to play word games? The reality is that, no, you can't always plan for everything, know everything, eliminate every bias, etc. But you CAN learn a great deal about the school and the people by gathering information from multiple and independent sources. Your - is flawed because you assume all people providing the information are inside the room rather than asking the person actually holding up the blue filter or even just someone outside the room.
You say this is a gossip forum, and that word of mouth is essentially gossip. Fine, I got my information through gossip. It does not necessarily follow that it is faulty simply because you label it as gossip. So if they say it to me personally via text message or FB or in person, it's somehow different from the type of thing said on this particular forum? Sure--it might be more honest because it's delivered personally and not posted publicly. But it is still information from people who have had experiences with the school or the HOS--nothing more or less than the stuff posted on the paid portion (and sometimes public portion) of this site.
You don't play Five Card Draw, do you? You'd know if you were only catching 50% of the liars.
No, the HOS isn't inexperienced--just very, very direct. He didn't hesitate to tell us the good and the bad about his school--what faculty found frustrating about the management, etc.--although it wasn't anything we hadn't already deduced from the website, the news article, and most importantly, from the grapevine (gossip if you prefer). Everthing everyone has said about him, for better or worse, has included some mention of his frank nature. People sometimes hated it and sometimes praised it, but they nearly always mentioned it. Some people just are that frank, whatever you may believe, and it is often an asset in recruiting if you are at a school that turns away a lot of applicants.
Why is it so important to you to have me fail? Why do you want me to be wrong? I have already conceded that you are right--most of the time going without a contract is not a good idea and that there was a chance, however small, that we might not get a contract. Is it so terrible for you to admit that sometimes, when done right, it CAN work, and that we might be those people who did it right?
Why do you say that our data relies on assumption and lacks system integrity? What precisely are we assuming? What system checks would you have us put in place to ensure that the data is accurate? Or were you just trying to play word games? The reality is that, no, you can't always plan for everything, know everything, eliminate every bias, etc. But you CAN learn a great deal about the school and the people by gathering information from multiple and independent sources. Your - is flawed because you assume all people providing the information are inside the room rather than asking the person actually holding up the blue filter or even just someone outside the room.
You say this is a gossip forum, and that word of mouth is essentially gossip. Fine, I got my information through gossip. It does not necessarily follow that it is faulty simply because you label it as gossip. So if they say it to me personally via text message or FB or in person, it's somehow different from the type of thing said on this particular forum? Sure--it might be more honest because it's delivered personally and not posted publicly. But it is still information from people who have had experiences with the school or the HOS--nothing more or less than the stuff posted on the paid portion (and sometimes public portion) of this site.
You don't play Five Card Draw, do you? You'd know if you were only catching 50% of the liars.
No, the HOS isn't inexperienced--just very, very direct. He didn't hesitate to tell us the good and the bad about his school--what faculty found frustrating about the management, etc.--although it wasn't anything we hadn't already deduced from the website, the news article, and most importantly, from the grapevine (gossip if you prefer). Everthing everyone has said about him, for better or worse, has included some mention of his frank nature. People sometimes hated it and sometimes praised it, but they nearly always mentioned it. Some people just are that frank, whatever you may believe, and it is often an asset in recruiting if you are at a school that turns away a lot of applicants.
Why is it so important to you to have me fail? Why do you want me to be wrong? I have already conceded that you are right--most of the time going without a contract is not a good idea and that there was a chance, however small, that we might not get a contract. Is it so terrible for you to admit that sometimes, when done right, it CAN work, and that we might be those people who did it right?
Last edited by Thames Pirate on Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Short of time travel or scrying you do not know what your IS intends or will do. Your "point" or objective is irrelevant and immaterial to my personal and professional objectives.
All claims contain underlying assumptions upon which premises are constructed and conclusions formed.
Im horrible at Scrabble.
Its not a flawed ana1ogy, your assumption is there is someone in the room on the other side of the glass with the rose.
I never claimed gossip was faulty or without utility.
No you wouldnt know. If your success rate at detecting deception is less than 100% than by definition you are unaware of the successful deceptions.
So the HOS isnt inexperienced and is familiar and well versed in deception and other sales tactics. So the HOS emphasized the good, gave you the lessor of the bad and concealed the real horrors.
Frankness is often over compensation for deceit. The best lies are told between two truths.
Its possible, I wrong a lot of people, why loose your venom on me?
Short of time travel or scrying you do not know what your IS intends or will do. Your "point" or objective is irrelevant and immaterial to my personal and professional objectives.
All claims contain underlying assumptions upon which premises are constructed and conclusions formed.
Im horrible at Scrabble.
Its not a flawed ana1ogy, your assumption is there is someone in the room on the other side of the glass with the rose.
I never claimed gossip was faulty or without utility.
No you wouldnt know. If your success rate at detecting deception is less than 100% than by definition you are unaware of the successful deceptions.
So the HOS isnt inexperienced and is familiar and well versed in deception and other sales tactics. So the HOS emphasized the good, gave you the lessor of the bad and concealed the real horrors.
Frankness is often over compensation for deceit. The best lies are told between two truths.
Its possible, I wrong a lot of people, why loose your venom on me?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Yes, claims contain underlying assumptions, but it does not follow that they are based/formed on those assumptions or that the evidence is all based on the same assumption. Otherwise we could never study or debate anything!
No, nobody knows what the IS intends to do except the IS--but we can know what they claim, and we can know that they did follow through.
And if I ask someone outside the room, they can tell me whether or not there is a rose as well as what color that rose is if it exists. All I have to do is ask the people outside the room. Not hard IF you have the right connections. We were lucky--we did.
I changed the game to five card draw because the generic term is apparently not allowed on here. Who knew that one can have a world series of this Vegas game on TV but not mention the card game on this board?
Did you know you can make a sales pitch honestly? Really! The HOS may be making a sale--but not to us. We are the commodity, remember? And why do you assume that he must by deceptive? While I also read C.S. Lewis, I do not assume that two truths must contain a lie between them.
In this case, we WERE right--we have already received the contract, which was the issue being discussed.
No, nobody knows what the IS intends to do except the IS--but we can know what they claim, and we can know that they did follow through.
And if I ask someone outside the room, they can tell me whether or not there is a rose as well as what color that rose is if it exists. All I have to do is ask the people outside the room. Not hard IF you have the right connections. We were lucky--we did.
I changed the game to five card draw because the generic term is apparently not allowed on here. Who knew that one can have a world series of this Vegas game on TV but not mention the card game on this board?
Did you know you can make a sales pitch honestly? Really! The HOS may be making a sale--but not to us. We are the commodity, remember? And why do you assume that he must by deceptive? While I also read C.S. Lewis, I do not assume that two truths must contain a lie between them.
In this case, we WERE right--we have already received the contract, which was the issue being discussed.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Yes it does, that is what assumptions are. All evidence is based on assumptions. You make an assumption that your senses are accurately relaying stimuli and that your cognitive functions are accurately processing that stimuli into a representative understanding or reality.
The IS doesnt even know what it intends to do at some future point on the time continuum, nor do they know how their intentions will change.
Knowing what they claim only means you believe the possible deception.
No, you have to inquire by an observer in the room with the rose, of which there is no such individual. If there was, you would need to assume they were truthful and accurately informed.
Gamb1ing terms are restricted by the language filter on this board as a means of reducing spam referencing gamb1ing sites. Everyone thinks they can spot the tale and the bluff.
There is no such thing as an honest sales pitch, such an event is an informative presentation, sales inherently requires persuasiveness.
The naivety in that assumption is not recognizing the lie between the truths. Leadership deceives themselves, they dont need a rational to deceive the commodity.
Yes it does, that is what assumptions are. All evidence is based on assumptions. You make an assumption that your senses are accurately relaying stimuli and that your cognitive functions are accurately processing that stimuli into a representative understanding or reality.
The IS doesnt even know what it intends to do at some future point on the time continuum, nor do they know how their intentions will change.
Knowing what they claim only means you believe the possible deception.
No, you have to inquire by an observer in the room with the rose, of which there is no such individual. If there was, you would need to assume they were truthful and accurately informed.
Gamb1ing terms are restricted by the language filter on this board as a means of reducing spam referencing gamb1ing sites. Everyone thinks they can spot the tale and the bluff.
There is no such thing as an honest sales pitch, such an event is an informative presentation, sales inherently requires persuasiveness.
The naivety in that assumption is not recognizing the lie between the truths. Leadership deceives themselves, they dont need a rational to deceive the commodity.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Ah, the what if game. What if your evidence is based on observations, but those observations are wrong because your eyes are tricking you? You are assuming your eyes are working, after all. You say you trust data, but when you are presented with data you don't like, you don't trust it because after all, what if?
As for the IS, they know they need an X teacher IF the teacher departing acts in good faith. The IS only knows what the IT has told them, and has told them that the position. What if things change? Well, then that contract is just as meaningless as the lack of one. What if the teacher stays? Well, then the school acted in good faith to the best of its abilities, though you are determined to call it deception. What if, what if, what if?
Wait, why am I restricted to asking the observer in the room of the rose? If I want to know about the rose, why not ask the guy holding it? Why not ask the guy standing beside him?
Ah, that explains it. Well, if you ACTUALLY gamb1ed, you would know that when you lose, the fact that you have been deceived becomes obvious.
Informing people is often all the persuasion they need, but even if it isn't, persuasion does not inherently require deception.
You are the one not recognizing the assumption--that there is a lie at all. You assume there is and then call me naive for not seeing it when the reality is that you are simply assuming its existence.
Again, we took a calculated risk--one we weighed carefully using a mountain of evidence. We considered how binding a contract would be and how likely one was to be forthcoming. We decided that we would be okay walking out of the fair with a handshake promise of a pending contract. That contract has since arrived.
As for the IS, they know they need an X teacher IF the teacher departing acts in good faith. The IS only knows what the IT has told them, and has told them that the position. What if things change? Well, then that contract is just as meaningless as the lack of one. What if the teacher stays? Well, then the school acted in good faith to the best of its abilities, though you are determined to call it deception. What if, what if, what if?
Wait, why am I restricted to asking the observer in the room of the rose? If I want to know about the rose, why not ask the guy holding it? Why not ask the guy standing beside him?
Ah, that explains it. Well, if you ACTUALLY gamb1ed, you would know that when you lose, the fact that you have been deceived becomes obvious.
Informing people is often all the persuasion they need, but even if it isn't, persuasion does not inherently require deception.
You are the one not recognizing the assumption--that there is a lie at all. You assume there is and then call me naive for not seeing it when the reality is that you are simply assuming its existence.
Again, we took a calculated risk--one we weighed carefully using a mountain of evidence. We considered how binding a contract would be and how likely one was to be forthcoming. We decided that we would be okay walking out of the fair with a handshake promise of a pending contract. That contract has since arrived.
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Soooooooooooo, this is an interesting thread. I have received my contract and also heard from the admission office and received paperwork for my dependent to start school. Are you saying this still isn't set? In that case, how can anyone even go into this field if they never know the job will be there until they arrive at the destination? I would have to think that would only happen in a small minority of cases, or why would anyone do this? The risk would be too great. Why should I quit my job, sell my house, etc, if I really have no idea if I have the job?
I did see in the reviews of one of the schools I was talking with, that a teacher traveled to a school and wasn't told until she arrived that she didn't have the job. I believe it had something to do with a work visa issue? I'm not sure, this was just from the reviews. Anyway, at that point, I took that school off my list of consideration. That was the only school I heard anything like that about of the schools I was considering.
I did see in the reviews of one of the schools I was talking with, that a teacher traveled to a school and wasn't told until she arrived that she didn't have the job. I believe it had something to do with a work visa issue? I'm not sure, this was just from the reviews. Anyway, at that point, I took that school off my list of consideration. That was the only school I heard anything like that about of the schools I was considering.
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
@cam2016 Do yourself a favour and ignore the witless comments of DavePsy. Dave could start an argument in an empty room. He has zero credibility in the world of international education.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
PsyGuy would have you believe it is common. Turns out it really isn't. It happens, usually because of things like visas, but it's not a regular thing. I would say it seems more common for teachers to do a runner, but that's just a perception based on people like higgs and Psy commenting on here. Psy is promoting doing a runner when there is no reason to and making it seem like HOSs have nothing better to do than write phony rec letters so they can undermine you for moving on in a professional manner. Sorry, but turnover is part of the job, and admin expects it. They aren't going to blast you for leaving as smoothly as possible and trying to do right by them. Ignore you, maybe, but not actively seek to destroy. They have other priorities.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Identifying that your claims, regardless of their simplicity have assumptions which are not self authenticating. You are welcome to personally fiat whatever rationals you wish, and thus believe anything you want.
There is no individual holding the rose. Why do you assume if there was its a male?
Losing does not indicate you were deceived. You could have folded and never seen the cards, the adversary may well have held the winning hand. Lessons are extra.
Persuasion does inherently include deception, it is otherwise informative. Truth doesnt need to be defended, you need only let it go and it defends itself.
There is always a lie, Diogenes searched since Greek times for 10 honest men, and his quest remains yet uncompleted. Everyone lies.
Your mountain is very likely smaller than you believe. Contracts are paper, as previously ascribed, paper is cheap.
@cam2016
The effectiveness and efficacy of contracts is relatively stable, there is no wide spread nullification and voiding of contracts. What exists is a minor number of abnormalities where upon ITs are unreasonably dismissed without sufficient grounds. They are far more common than leadership and recruiters would like you to believe.
All of the material you have received to date, including your contract, and admission information are zero cash value documents. They are worth no more than the paper they are printed on, and paper can be discarded with little effort or consequence by an IS and its leadership. You shouldnt really be comfortable until you arrive on site and have your first day of reporting. You can feel slightly more comfortable if and when an IS expends financial resources on travel related costs such as airfare, etc. All that paper and documentation doesnt mean anything, your appointment could still be withdrawn and rescinded with little more than an email notification.
Mostly faith and desire, you want the job, so you believe it is more firm than it is, because otherwise youd be putting yourself under a great deal of stress thats unlikely to be realized. At some point you just have to walk off the edge. Excising yourself of all assets however on the promise of a a recruiter and a piece of paper that is largely unenforceable , is indeed a serious risk. Ask yourself what your options would be if you received an email from your IS that your contract was withdrawn/voided/rescinded for X cause, what could you actually do to effect a change in that scenario:
1) You cant file suite without traveling and remaining in the foreign country for an extended period of time.
2) Few labor boards will hear a complaint from a foreign national who is not in country.
3) You premium agency will sympathize, but they arent going to be able to create a vacancy and the corresponding compensation, simply because they inquire. At BEST you may get a month of severance and possible reimbursement of fees.
4) No political or judicial domestic authority will have jurisdiction. You can file suite, and under remote circumstances even get a default judgement, but that court order is just paper. You cant in practice turn it into coin. You can email it to your IS and even the consulate, but all you will get is a sorry, you need to enforce your judgement on your own. The embassy wont send agents or consular officers to the IS or its financial institution to extract compliance.
5) You can complain to accrediting bodies, and they will likely investigate, but all that will result in (at BEST) is a letter many months later explaining that their agency overseas academic matters of compliance with their content standards, not contract or employment disputes, for which they have no enforcement authority.
6) All thats left is blasting negative reviews on various social media/forums, you could use that as leverage and maybe, again get a months salary and admission back into your agencies database, but thats it. You are still going to be without a house (that you sold), no job, no compensation package, etc.
At that point your either looking at employment in DE, EE, or a last minute vacancy in a hardship/lower tier IS.
This forum is not advertised or promoted, as a community were a very, very small proportion of IE. What you read on the forums both public and member is a very small portion of IE.
Runners are not common, but they arent uncommon either. There are two types of conditions under which most runners take place. The horrible IS that is a poo pit of a train wreck, and the IS where leadership chips away at the conditions and agreement until its no longer tolerable.
Identifying that your claims, regardless of their simplicity have assumptions which are not self authenticating. You are welcome to personally fiat whatever rationals you wish, and thus believe anything you want.
There is no individual holding the rose. Why do you assume if there was its a male?
Losing does not indicate you were deceived. You could have folded and never seen the cards, the adversary may well have held the winning hand. Lessons are extra.
Persuasion does inherently include deception, it is otherwise informative. Truth doesnt need to be defended, you need only let it go and it defends itself.
There is always a lie, Diogenes searched since Greek times for 10 honest men, and his quest remains yet uncompleted. Everyone lies.
Your mountain is very likely smaller than you believe. Contracts are paper, as previously ascribed, paper is cheap.
@cam2016
The effectiveness and efficacy of contracts is relatively stable, there is no wide spread nullification and voiding of contracts. What exists is a minor number of abnormalities where upon ITs are unreasonably dismissed without sufficient grounds. They are far more common than leadership and recruiters would like you to believe.
All of the material you have received to date, including your contract, and admission information are zero cash value documents. They are worth no more than the paper they are printed on, and paper can be discarded with little effort or consequence by an IS and its leadership. You shouldnt really be comfortable until you arrive on site and have your first day of reporting. You can feel slightly more comfortable if and when an IS expends financial resources on travel related costs such as airfare, etc. All that paper and documentation doesnt mean anything, your appointment could still be withdrawn and rescinded with little more than an email notification.
Mostly faith and desire, you want the job, so you believe it is more firm than it is, because otherwise youd be putting yourself under a great deal of stress thats unlikely to be realized. At some point you just have to walk off the edge. Excising yourself of all assets however on the promise of a a recruiter and a piece of paper that is largely unenforceable , is indeed a serious risk. Ask yourself what your options would be if you received an email from your IS that your contract was withdrawn/voided/rescinded for X cause, what could you actually do to effect a change in that scenario:
1) You cant file suite without traveling and remaining in the foreign country for an extended period of time.
2) Few labor boards will hear a complaint from a foreign national who is not in country.
3) You premium agency will sympathize, but they arent going to be able to create a vacancy and the corresponding compensation, simply because they inquire. At BEST you may get a month of severance and possible reimbursement of fees.
4) No political or judicial domestic authority will have jurisdiction. You can file suite, and under remote circumstances even get a default judgement, but that court order is just paper. You cant in practice turn it into coin. You can email it to your IS and even the consulate, but all you will get is a sorry, you need to enforce your judgement on your own. The embassy wont send agents or consular officers to the IS or its financial institution to extract compliance.
5) You can complain to accrediting bodies, and they will likely investigate, but all that will result in (at BEST) is a letter many months later explaining that their agency overseas academic matters of compliance with their content standards, not contract or employment disputes, for which they have no enforcement authority.
6) All thats left is blasting negative reviews on various social media/forums, you could use that as leverage and maybe, again get a months salary and admission back into your agencies database, but thats it. You are still going to be without a house (that you sold), no job, no compensation package, etc.
At that point your either looking at employment in DE, EE, or a last minute vacancy in a hardship/lower tier IS.
This forum is not advertised or promoted, as a community were a very, very small proportion of IE. What you read on the forums both public and member is a very small portion of IE.
Runners are not common, but they arent uncommon either. There are two types of conditions under which most runners take place. The horrible IS that is a poo pit of a train wreck, and the IS where leadership chips away at the conditions and agreement until its no longer tolerable.
Last edited by PsyGuy on Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
@Psyguy: "Identifying that your claims, regardless of their simplicity have assumptions which are not self authenticating. You are welcome to personally fiat whatever rationals you wish, and thus believe anything you want."
Hi Dave, Is there any chance that you could provide an English translation of this?
"Persuasion does inherently include deception, it is otherwise informative." So a persuasive argument is inherently deceptive? Not sure that this is a definition of "persuasive" that most people would recognise.
@cam2016 Beware Dave the Fear-Monger and his empty scare tactics.
Hi Dave, Is there any chance that you could provide an English translation of this?
"Persuasion does inherently include deception, it is otherwise informative." So a persuasive argument is inherently deceptive? Not sure that this is a definition of "persuasive" that most people would recognise.
@cam2016 Beware Dave the Fear-Monger and his empty scare tactics.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
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- Location: Japan
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> There is always a lie, Damocles searched since Greek times for 10 honest
> men, and his quest remains yet uncompleted. Everyone lies.
------------------------------------------------
Wasn't it Diogenes that was looking for an honest man?
And Damocles had the sword issues.
> There is always a lie, Damocles searched since Greek times for 10 honest
> men, and his quest remains yet uncompleted. Everyone lies.
------------------------------------------------
Wasn't it Diogenes that was looking for an honest man?
And Damocles had the sword issues.