Looking for some advice.
My husband and I are beginning to search for a new school. Currently we have been at the same school for 11 1/2 years. We originally came as a young teaching couple with no dependents and then had two children. The situation here was ideal as it allowed me to stay home with the kids until the second reached school age. I was fortunate to get rehired this year and now am teaching again. There is a 9 year span between when I first quit and now. The administration as changed twice during my absence. So basically I have 5 months of recent teaching experience although 5 years total.
My first question is about references. We have one superintendent/principal. I can get a reference from him but is one enough? Who else could I ask? What is appropriate? How many do you need for ISS and SA?
Next, after reading many threads on this forum, I'm sensing that joining ISS or SA is the way to go. I can see pros and cons of each. Which one would you choose and why?
And last, I know it's a bit late in the game to begin looking and we are okay with staying here one more year. Beyond that it is not too appealing as the oldest will be middle school age and the school here is not what we want for her. What do we say to prospective schools about why we are leaving here? Tell the truth-- the situation met our needs and now those needs are different? the school is not up to our standards for our child? we're ready for a new adventure...?
Thanks for taking the time to read and I hope if you have any advice you will share it.
References and ISS or SA
Re: References and ISS or SA
I can speak for Search Associates references, but not for ISS. For an initial application for Search, they will generally ask for 5 references: 3 supervisory and 2 parent references. You can replace parent references with supervisory ones, but you will need at least 3 supervisors. If you reactivate your account for a later job search, the reference numbers go down - I only needed 2 supervisors to get my account restarted, but my wife (new to Search) had to get 5 total. You do have a good amount of flexibility in the supervisor refs: you can use a director, principal, assistant principal, dept. head/team lead, an athletic/activities director (if you coach), a curriculum coordinator/instructional coach/specialist, etc. to get to 3 supervisors, but your principal or director has to be one of them for Search to open your application.
As far as your reasons for leaving, your truthful answer seems reasonable. The transitory nature of international teaching means that people are always changing locations for a variety of reasons. Most reasons for leaving I've heard people give seem to boil down to some variation of "It's time to move on for new professional challenges/change of scenery/new opportunities with X curriculum." As long as you aren't trashing your current employers to a prospective employer, the interviewers I've dealt with have been pretty understanding with some variation on the above.
As far as your reasons for leaving, your truthful answer seems reasonable. The transitory nature of international teaching means that people are always changing locations for a variety of reasons. Most reasons for leaving I've heard people give seem to boil down to some variation of "It's time to move on for new professional challenges/change of scenery/new opportunities with X curriculum." As long as you aren't trashing your current employers to a prospective employer, the interviewers I've dealt with have been pretty understanding with some variation on the above.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: References and ISS or SA
A couple of thoughts, FWIW.
In general, Search will want more than one reference. Any chance of tracking down someone from a previous school (I am thinking from your post that you had teaching experience before your current school)? If not, then think about whether someone else from your school could post as a supervisor (Asst. Principal, Department Head, Counselor, etc). Also throw in a parent reference or two.
As for the agencies, I would advise Search. ISS was very unresponsive/unhelpful when I made inquiries when we were first starting out and Search has generally been pretty good for us over the years. Other people will have had other experiences.
As for giving your reasons for leaving, no need to go negative at all about your current school. Many admin types may not like you saying bad things about your current employer and it downgrades your experience within that teaching environment. You have been there long enough that simply saying you were ready for a move will suffice. You may be more likely to need to explain why you stayed so long (J/K, sort of)!
Start thinking about regions you are most interested and doing your research on areas, schools. etc.
In general, Search will want more than one reference. Any chance of tracking down someone from a previous school (I am thinking from your post that you had teaching experience before your current school)? If not, then think about whether someone else from your school could post as a supervisor (Asst. Principal, Department Head, Counselor, etc). Also throw in a parent reference or two.
As for the agencies, I would advise Search. ISS was very unresponsive/unhelpful when I made inquiries when we were first starting out and Search has generally been pretty good for us over the years. Other people will have had other experiences.
As for giving your reasons for leaving, no need to go negative at all about your current school. Many admin types may not like you saying bad things about your current employer and it downgrades your experience within that teaching environment. You have been there long enough that simply saying you were ready for a move will suffice. You may be more likely to need to explain why you stayed so long (J/K, sort of)!
Start thinking about regions you are most interested and doing your research on areas, schools. etc.
Response
You can take off about a year from IE will little ill effect, after that your resume begins to age, and after nine years of absence you are going to be in the same class as an entry class IT.
If you join SA it will depend on your associate, each associate is essentially independent, there may be an associate that will accept a single recent reference assuming that reference is your principal/HOS. In general though you will need around 3 supervisor references. There are a number of staff that can fulfill this role, including a AP/VP/DP, coordinators, HODs, counselor, librarian/technology/athletic director, mentoring peer. You may also consider a reference from your last position 9 years ago. You will also need 1 or more parent/personal references. If you dont have one you can use a peer reference or a personal/character reference.
At the top you have the premium agencies: 1) International School Services (ISS) and 2) Search Associates (Search or SA) Search Associates recruiters dont do very very much to actually find you a job. Mainly what your paying for is access to the school database, and the fairs (of which your first one is free).
ISS is smaller and repps the better ISs (even if all they are providing a school is Recruiting Services) ISS has the "better" schools, as they have a higher bar/standard on what schools they will represent.
Search has a much larger datatbase (almost a 1,000 schools compared to ISS's 400), as they accept pretty much all of the tier 1 and tier 2 schools (and many of the tier 3 schools), so they have more opportunities available (although you have to tolerate all the job vacancies coming out of schools in the ME, which never seem to end). ISS also has higher standards for what teachers they will accept, generally ISS doesnt accept teachers who arent currently employed. ISS works a lot more personally to help you find a job, assuming your worthy. They are a boutique experience, they either are very attentive or they ignore you. Search recruiters may or may not do anything for you. Cost is also an issue. Search is $200 for three years of database access, and one free fair (additional fairs are $50 each). ISS is $185 for two years (2 seasons, it use to be one year). I'm a member of ISS, The really elite schools list with both companies, and the big fairs for each agency run back to back of one another (the "Super" fairs for each are the Cambridge/Boston fair, and the Bangkok fair).
Both give you access to a vacancy database.
CIS is another organization that does teacher recruiting though they arent as international, they primarily cater to EU schools (and the brittish school curriculum). Their big fair is in London (twhich is a Super fair with Search).
UNI is an international job fair held by the University of Northern Iowa. For close to the cost of a premium agency you get one fair and access to the fair attendees future vacancies. Its mostly lower tier ISs in Asia and South America. Trinity College in the UK has a IT fair as does Queens University in Canada
AASSA is another fair that focuses on lower tier CSA.
In the smaller recruiting agencies (and cheaper) you have Joy Jobs and TIE-Online (The International Educator), they have small fees about $40 each. They get the smaller schools, and some last minute positions, but they have pretty small databases. I've subscribed to both of them and prefer TIE, and have heard mixed reviews about them. It is essentially a jobs database and thats it.
Below that you have all the "free" web sites, though these mostly are for ESL positions, sites like: Daves ESL cafe, Gaijinpot, Ajarn, , are free and occasionally have non ESL positions advertised.
TES is a free educator site that maintains an extensive job database, though the majority of vacancies are for BSs (British DSs/ISs)
Lastly you have all the service agencies such as Footprints, Compass, etc. They are either operating as an introduction service, meaning they collect resumes and profiles and when they get an IS client they "introduce" you or forward your application for what they perceive is a good match. The other type are the agencies that have large IS clients and they are just trying to fill classrooms as cheaply as possible with anyone who has a degree and a pulse.
Its not too late to job search, but we are near the end of the peak fair recruitment window.
I would advise honesty in this scenario. There is nothing wrong with the time to move on new challenges and opportunities, but there is nothing wrong with needing to improve the educational opportunities for your children, and doing so has the added benefit of screening ISs that arent going to meet your standards and expectations. It will not accomplish much if you accept an appointment to an IS that has an inferior secondary program that doesnt meet your childrens needs.
If you join SA it will depend on your associate, each associate is essentially independent, there may be an associate that will accept a single recent reference assuming that reference is your principal/HOS. In general though you will need around 3 supervisor references. There are a number of staff that can fulfill this role, including a AP/VP/DP, coordinators, HODs, counselor, librarian/technology/athletic director, mentoring peer. You may also consider a reference from your last position 9 years ago. You will also need 1 or more parent/personal references. If you dont have one you can use a peer reference or a personal/character reference.
At the top you have the premium agencies: 1) International School Services (ISS) and 2) Search Associates (Search or SA) Search Associates recruiters dont do very very much to actually find you a job. Mainly what your paying for is access to the school database, and the fairs (of which your first one is free).
ISS is smaller and repps the better ISs (even if all they are providing a school is Recruiting Services) ISS has the "better" schools, as they have a higher bar/standard on what schools they will represent.
Search has a much larger datatbase (almost a 1,000 schools compared to ISS's 400), as they accept pretty much all of the tier 1 and tier 2 schools (and many of the tier 3 schools), so they have more opportunities available (although you have to tolerate all the job vacancies coming out of schools in the ME, which never seem to end). ISS also has higher standards for what teachers they will accept, generally ISS doesnt accept teachers who arent currently employed. ISS works a lot more personally to help you find a job, assuming your worthy. They are a boutique experience, they either are very attentive or they ignore you. Search recruiters may or may not do anything for you. Cost is also an issue. Search is $200 for three years of database access, and one free fair (additional fairs are $50 each). ISS is $185 for two years (2 seasons, it use to be one year). I'm a member of ISS, The really elite schools list with both companies, and the big fairs for each agency run back to back of one another (the "Super" fairs for each are the Cambridge/Boston fair, and the Bangkok fair).
Both give you access to a vacancy database.
CIS is another organization that does teacher recruiting though they arent as international, they primarily cater to EU schools (and the brittish school curriculum). Their big fair is in London (twhich is a Super fair with Search).
UNI is an international job fair held by the University of Northern Iowa. For close to the cost of a premium agency you get one fair and access to the fair attendees future vacancies. Its mostly lower tier ISs in Asia and South America. Trinity College in the UK has a IT fair as does Queens University in Canada
AASSA is another fair that focuses on lower tier CSA.
In the smaller recruiting agencies (and cheaper) you have Joy Jobs and TIE-Online (The International Educator), they have small fees about $40 each. They get the smaller schools, and some last minute positions, but they have pretty small databases. I've subscribed to both of them and prefer TIE, and have heard mixed reviews about them. It is essentially a jobs database and thats it.
Below that you have all the "free" web sites, though these mostly are for ESL positions, sites like: Daves ESL cafe, Gaijinpot, Ajarn, , are free and occasionally have non ESL positions advertised.
TES is a free educator site that maintains an extensive job database, though the majority of vacancies are for BSs (British DSs/ISs)
Lastly you have all the service agencies such as Footprints, Compass, etc. They are either operating as an introduction service, meaning they collect resumes and profiles and when they get an IS client they "introduce" you or forward your application for what they perceive is a good match. The other type are the agencies that have large IS clients and they are just trying to fill classrooms as cheaply as possible with anyone who has a degree and a pulse.
Its not too late to job search, but we are near the end of the peak fair recruitment window.
I would advise honesty in this scenario. There is nothing wrong with the time to move on new challenges and opportunities, but there is nothing wrong with needing to improve the educational opportunities for your children, and doing so has the added benefit of screening ISs that arent going to meet your standards and expectations. It will not accomplish much if you accept an appointment to an IS that has an inferior secondary program that doesnt meet your childrens needs.
Re: References and ISS or SA
Thank you all for the helpful advice. We're jumping in and hopefully we will be in a new location soon!
Re: References and ISS or SA
Are the references for Search private, or do you get to see what the individuals write?
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1150
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: References and ISS or SA
When we started in IE, hubby worked at a small rural district where there was one admin who was principal who was also VP and superintendent. Since he was the entire dept., he was his own HOD. He had another teacher with more seniority write as "head teacher." His associate recommended that route and was very helpful in the whole thing process. I don't remember what he did for the third reference--maybe another teacher as a peer reference?, but he did get a few extra parents to help fill the gaps. The references are private--you can only see if they have been filled out.
Taking that long off can be a weakness in your application, but because a) you do have experience, b) you are already back in the classroom, and c) you are likely applying on the strength of your partner while you are an employable spouse, it's not as bad as it would be for many others. I think you have a reasonable chance of getting a nice job either next year (though peak season has passed) or the year after.
Big thread on ISS vs. SA on the other board. Entertaining read. PsyGuy still hasn't said what the higher bar for entry for ISS (for schools or teachers) is or what makes him say they rep "better" schools or teachers (since their requirements are basically identical). He hasn't said what the "extra services" are that ISS provides for its special snowflakes.
I would recommend SA over ISS for most people, but it depends on what you are looking for. See my responses on the other thread.
Taking that long off can be a weakness in your application, but because a) you do have experience, b) you are already back in the classroom, and c) you are likely applying on the strength of your partner while you are an employable spouse, it's not as bad as it would be for many others. I think you have a reasonable chance of getting a nice job either next year (though peak season has passed) or the year after.
Big thread on ISS vs. SA on the other board. Entertaining read. PsyGuy still hasn't said what the higher bar for entry for ISS (for schools or teachers) is or what makes him say they rep "better" schools or teachers (since their requirements are basically identical). He hasn't said what the "extra services" are that ISS provides for its special snowflakes.
I would recommend SA over ISS for most people, but it depends on what you are looking for. See my responses on the other thread.
Re: References and ISS or SA
@wilcoman
Search references are confidential; you don't get to see them.
Search references are confidential; you don't get to see them.
Reply
@wilcoman
They are private, but your associate can read them, and when they are all in you should contact your associate and ask them to review your references to make sure they are positive. If they arent you can then replace the reference with another one.
They are private, but your associate can read them, and when they are all in you should contact your associate and ask them to review your references to make sure they are positive. If they arent you can then replace the reference with another one.
Re: References and ISS or SA
I've seen the "ask your associate" go both ways. I asked once and the associate was very vague, which gave me cause for concern because if all the references were strong, the person should be able to say so. I wasn't sure if the reference I was concerned about was a problem (maybe a lukewarm or neutral) or if there was a big problem.
A friend of ours also asked their associate the same question about an administrator. That friend's associate gave them some ideas about which reference might be problematic without mentioning the reference by name--something that probably comes close to the confidentiality line.
While respecting the idea of confidentiality, I think that is one of the associate's roles when you pay your fee--they should be giving advice as to how best present and sell yourself--beating yourself up wondering why something's not right is terrible when it might be something that can be addressed .
A friend of ours also asked their associate the same question about an administrator. That friend's associate gave them some ideas about which reference might be problematic without mentioning the reference by name--something that probably comes close to the confidentiality line.
While respecting the idea of confidentiality, I think that is one of the associate's roles when you pay your fee--they should be giving advice as to how best present and sell yourself--beating yourself up wondering why something's not right is terrible when it might be something that can be addressed .
Re: References and ISS or SA
If you're in the UK and concerned about references, try a Data Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act. They then by law MUST release the information to you - though, of course, they may well then choose not to represent you.
Reply
@mamava
This is true, some consultants associates feel they need to tread carefully about what they disclose in regards to references. The reality is the recruiters are the client, not the ITs. The agencies have a stronger interest in maintaining at least the appearance of confidentiality in regard to references so as to lend value and credence to those references.
Regardless of the degree of issue, even when your getting the vague/ambiguous indications with some identifiers its time to start looking for additional references and talking to your current references. They may not feel comfortable telling you the problem but at least they are indicating a problem.
@expatscot
This is true, but in the cases in the past they drop the IT. What will happen is the associate will ask you if youd like to force compliance with the understanding that upon disclosure they will no longer repp you.
This is true, some consultants associates feel they need to tread carefully about what they disclose in regards to references. The reality is the recruiters are the client, not the ITs. The agencies have a stronger interest in maintaining at least the appearance of confidentiality in regard to references so as to lend value and credence to those references.
Regardless of the degree of issue, even when your getting the vague/ambiguous indications with some identifiers its time to start looking for additional references and talking to your current references. They may not feel comfortable telling you the problem but at least they are indicating a problem.
@expatscot
This is true, but in the cases in the past they drop the IT. What will happen is the associate will ask you if youd like to force compliance with the understanding that upon disclosure they will no longer repp you.