Hi all. I'm wondering if anyone is on the ground in Saudi who can me a balanced view regarding safety for westerners and their families? An almost perfect job is being advertised and I'm after a bit of a perspective as to whether it's safe to take wife +2.
Many thanks.
Riyadh - safety
Re: Riyadh - safety
We lived in Saudi the last 2 years (in Dhahran) and have friends currently in Riyadh who attend the American school there. IF that's the school you're looking at, the compound is plush and very secure. Saudi tends to be a relatively safe place--it's hard to think about breaking the law when the penalties are so harsh! That being said, there's a definite uptick in nervousness right now--when we visited in Riyadh the very large security presence, especially around the diplomatic quarter, was very noticeable.
We lived where we could get away to Bahrain pretty easily on the weekends which was great. Life in Saudi is very restrictive and, with the prayer schedule, restrictions on women (and driving), segregated restaurants, no bars, no movies, etc. it has a big impact on daily life. People who have been there with younger children have found it to be a great place to raise kids--those of us with teens found it much more challenging.
I don't think we'd ever return to Saudi, but more for the restrictive lifestyle than for security reasons.
We lived where we could get away to Bahrain pretty easily on the weekends which was great. Life in Saudi is very restrictive and, with the prayer schedule, restrictions on women (and driving), segregated restaurants, no bars, no movies, etc. it has a big impact on daily life. People who have been there with younger children have found it to be a great place to raise kids--those of us with teens found it much more challenging.
I don't think we'd ever return to Saudi, but more for the restrictive lifestyle than for security reasons.
Response
Concur with @mamava, security in regards to safety isnt very much of an issue, penalties for even minor crimes are extremely harsh, and tends to keep crime against foreigners very low. The increase in security is concern over organized terrorist type events, of which foreigners are the obvious target. Typically your wife/daughters are going to be subject to verbal harassment/starring, a wondering hand in tight places (such as a bus). You (yourself) might find an occasional pick pocket.
Re: Riyadh - safety
Thanks both of you for replying. My biggest concern is the threat of terrorism tbh, but I don't know if my concerns are justified. Apparently ISIS are targeting westerners in Saudi as well as the Mosques that have been bombed. But, isn't the threat the same in the likes of London, Sydney, Paris, Brussels etc..? What I'm trying to say is, is the threat of terrorism to my wife and kids more likely in Riyadh than in other cities across the world? I certainly don't want to be on compound worrying everyday about getting bombed!
Mamava, it's the British School I'm looking at.
Mamava, it's the British School I'm looking at.
Re: Riyadh - safety
I would say that you are not in more danger in Riyadh than in Europe or the States right now. Yes, there were bombing of mosques last year and yes, there is some violence there (including violence) and yes, there are skirmishes in areas year the Yemeni border. But whether you're more in danger in your daily lives than random terrorist violence in Riyadh than in a random city in Europe or stacked against a random shooting in the US...I would say no. Of course, anything can happen anywhere, but the Brits and Americans take security pretty seriously!
Reply
@nuts88
There is a greater probability of being a direct target for terrorist violence in the Kingdom than a random or collateral target in a western region. Direct threats are easier to prepare and defend against than random or collateral threats. You can establish barriers, increase security personnel and implement screening measures far more easily and readily when you can point at 'that place' or 'that person' and say "make that more secure". You can establish entry points, deploy metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs, increase the number of armed guards. You cant do that so easily or readily when you have an unknown, ambiguous, or vague threat. Paris couldnt have done much more without making the city a police state. An embassy or a IS with a small, defined location and boundaries, is much easier to secure.
Yes you would be a more valuable and potentially more vulnerable target as an expat/foreigner in the Kingdom. One of the primary doctrine of personal security is situational awareness and not to identify yourself as a target. You are going to 'stand out' more as a foreigner than you will blending among the general population at home. A terrorist with instructions to shoot the foreigners/the white people/etc. in a theater in the ME is going to walk in and see a small handful of primary targets. Tell the same terrorists to do the same in a theater in Paris and your just one potential target amongst everyone.
Does that make you less safe, maybe in a theater or another random soft and unsecured target of opportunity. However you start putting up gates, and detection protocols and armed security personnel at an embassy, business, residence/compound, or IS and now your a much harder target to get too, more work, more resources, more time to plan, organize and execute, as you have to beat security, alive to be successful compared to lower hanging fruit.
Which is safer? If i knew that answer Id be making a whole lot more coin as a corporate security consultant than I would in education. No one really know that answer, thats why its called risk. If all you need is the will, a plan, and an automatic weapon/ammo to murder a 100+ people, thats a very low barrier to achieve anywhere in the world. The difference in local/regional security policy and procedures isnt going to change the probability by more than a couple percent regardless of where you are in the world. If someone wants to get to you, and they are willing to die to do so, not a whole lot you can do to preempt that. If thats too much a risk for you, dig a hole, reenforce it with concrete, put a thick steal door at the entrance, go inside and dont come out.
I generally have a very low position in regards to the ME and specifically the Kingdom, but as far as a being a significantly greater threat to safety and security, I dont see that as being accurate.
There is a greater probability of being a direct target for terrorist violence in the Kingdom than a random or collateral target in a western region. Direct threats are easier to prepare and defend against than random or collateral threats. You can establish barriers, increase security personnel and implement screening measures far more easily and readily when you can point at 'that place' or 'that person' and say "make that more secure". You can establish entry points, deploy metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs, increase the number of armed guards. You cant do that so easily or readily when you have an unknown, ambiguous, or vague threat. Paris couldnt have done much more without making the city a police state. An embassy or a IS with a small, defined location and boundaries, is much easier to secure.
Yes you would be a more valuable and potentially more vulnerable target as an expat/foreigner in the Kingdom. One of the primary doctrine of personal security is situational awareness and not to identify yourself as a target. You are going to 'stand out' more as a foreigner than you will blending among the general population at home. A terrorist with instructions to shoot the foreigners/the white people/etc. in a theater in the ME is going to walk in and see a small handful of primary targets. Tell the same terrorists to do the same in a theater in Paris and your just one potential target amongst everyone.
Does that make you less safe, maybe in a theater or another random soft and unsecured target of opportunity. However you start putting up gates, and detection protocols and armed security personnel at an embassy, business, residence/compound, or IS and now your a much harder target to get too, more work, more resources, more time to plan, organize and execute, as you have to beat security, alive to be successful compared to lower hanging fruit.
Which is safer? If i knew that answer Id be making a whole lot more coin as a corporate security consultant than I would in education. No one really know that answer, thats why its called risk. If all you need is the will, a plan, and an automatic weapon/ammo to murder a 100+ people, thats a very low barrier to achieve anywhere in the world. The difference in local/regional security policy and procedures isnt going to change the probability by more than a couple percent regardless of where you are in the world. If someone wants to get to you, and they are willing to die to do so, not a whole lot you can do to preempt that. If thats too much a risk for you, dig a hole, reenforce it with concrete, put a thick steal door at the entrance, go inside and dont come out.
I generally have a very low position in regards to the ME and specifically the Kingdom, but as far as a being a significantly greater threat to safety and security, I dont see that as being accurate.
Re: Riyadh - safety
as others have said, the restrictive lifestyle would be the downer. if you can stay a few years and make some mad cash and get out, that would be great.
saudi isn't the highest priority target - you generally don't bite the hand that feeds you - but as others have mentioned there have been targeted attacks which, in my opinion, are aimed at "soft" muslims, i.e. muslims who aren't wahhabi enough, aren't hardcore enough. the royalty of these ME countries are westernized, plain and simple. in the grand scheme of daesh, they are also the enemy but that's a ways down the road.
best of luck!
v.
saudi isn't the highest priority target - you generally don't bite the hand that feeds you - but as others have mentioned there have been targeted attacks which, in my opinion, are aimed at "soft" muslims, i.e. muslims who aren't wahhabi enough, aren't hardcore enough. the royalty of these ME countries are westernized, plain and simple. in the grand scheme of daesh, they are also the enemy but that's a ways down the road.
best of luck!
v.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
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Re: Riyadh - safety
Have friends at BISR and they feel secure enough to keep staying. We lived there for quite a few years - if we died there it would be in a traffic accident - NOT a terrorist attack. You are safer in Riyadh than in most American cities.
Re: Riyadh - safety
Thanks for your input everyone, it's much appreciated.
Re: Riyadh - safety
You're way more likely to be killed by traffic accidents in the ME than you are by terrorism or crime.
Re: Riyadh - safety
I am currently in Riyadh, and have worked in the ME for the last decade. We feel relatively safe but we take precautions. We insisted on being housed in the Diplomatic Quarter - an enclosed relatively secure mini-town where the embassies are located - as we preferred this to the alternative of apartments in the city. Our school does not house staff in a compound so this is as close as it gets. A compound offers better seclusion from the daily grind of Saudi life. We feel relatively safe but we take pains to keep a low profile, and avoid going out on Fridays when the mid-day prayers might whip up anti-West sentiments. We vary our routine and stay under the radar as much as possible. I appreciate that may not suit everyone but we are here with a clear goal and exit plan. There are lots of police checkpoints around the city and the government is effectively fighting threats. Just this Friday they executed 47 people across the kingdom.
I would say don't consider Saudi Arabia - certainly not Riyadh - as your first ME post. And absolutely not as your first international post. Do your research, make sure you are happy with the school, the package and accommodation - and make sure if you are bringing a spouse/children that they will feel safe and are happy with what they can expect.
What has been said about the driving here is 100% accurate - it is absolutely hair-raising!
I would say don't consider Saudi Arabia - certainly not Riyadh - as your first ME post. And absolutely not as your first international post. Do your research, make sure you are happy with the school, the package and accommodation - and make sure if you are bringing a spouse/children that they will feel safe and are happy with what they can expect.
What has been said about the driving here is 100% accurate - it is absolutely hair-raising!
Re: Riyadh - safety
@Psyguy
Yes.
What I meant is that increase in risk from ME drivers (compared to Europe) is significantly larger than the increased risk of terrorism (compared to Europe). There are almost 5 times more traffic fatalities per year in KSA then there are in Belgium and Holland added together (a roughly equivalent population).
At the same time, there hasn't been a terrorist attack against westerners in the Kingdom since 2007.
Yes.
What I meant is that increase in risk from ME drivers (compared to Europe) is significantly larger than the increased risk of terrorism (compared to Europe). There are almost 5 times more traffic fatalities per year in KSA then there are in Belgium and Holland added together (a roughly equivalent population).
At the same time, there hasn't been a terrorist attack against westerners in the Kingdom since 2007.
Re: Riyadh - safety
>
> At the same time, there hasn't been a terrorist attack against westerners
> in the Kingdom since 2007.
i'm not so sure that part matters. it's like saying there is a tsunami but it's okay because it didn't hit our part of the coastline.
v.
> At the same time, there hasn't been a terrorist attack against westerners
> in the Kingdom since 2007.
i'm not so sure that part matters. it's like saying there is a tsunami but it's okay because it didn't hit our part of the coastline.
v.