Questions from a newbie to IS

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damok
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:33 am

Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by damok »

Hi all,

I am hoping to get started in international school teaching mid way through next year. It was originally the reason that I got into teaching. However, until recently I have had several things stopping me from applying (be it a long term relationship or being new to teaching). I have finally decided to bite the bullet and begin the application process.

A bit about me:
I am a full certified teacher in Australia and have been teaching in both government and Catholic schools for three years (full time). I currently have a permanent position teaching full time (however, I am not obligated to stay at my current school). I have a Masters in Teaching from a very good university in Australia. I am qualified to teach Psychology, English and Humanities. I have taught all year levels from 7-12. I have also tutored at University and have worked as a teacher's aide in special needs. In addition to this, I did volunteer work in Thailand - teaching English in a rural orphanage. No IB experience sadly.

So my questions:
1) What are the chances of me landing a job at an IS school? I am happy to get my foot in the door and wouldn't mind doing a few years at somewhere without ideal pay to get some experience. I am mainly interested in Latin America and Asia (just because I have been there) but I am certainly open to other places.
2) I have the possibility of an interview coming up for a school in Bangkok, (I got put in contact with someone in a leadership position there through a friend). In terms of salary and housing allowance, what is the minimum I should expect? I understand this varies from school to school, but should I be successful, I would like to make sure that I am getting enough to live on and to be able to enjoy myself.
3) I have signed up for TIE and I'm in the process of signing up for Search. Is it worth contacting individual schools outside of these organisations? When should I really be putting my foot down in terms of applications? When is peak seasons?
4) Does anyone have any hot tips when it comes for looking for your first IS job?

Thanks in advance everyone.
MedellinHeel
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:59 am

Re: Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by MedellinHeel »

Why does this forum not have a big sticky at the top with "What are my chances?" lol This question gets asked so many times.

Pretty much anyone has a chance. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are some very low tier schools that hire people without even a teaching license.

Pretty much the more experience, responsibilities, and connections you have/had the better. I assume the top candidates get the best jobs and on down the list.

Also helps to not have a ton of dependents. Single or married to another teacher is best.

If you are a decent candidate i.e. licensed with little to no dependents (this goes for newbs also) so long as you are not picky about location and school you have a pretty good shot at getting a IS job. This is assuming you are exhausting ALL job search options.

With regards to Thailand, pretty much any IS is gonna provide a more than enough salary to live off of. Thailand is one of the cheapest countries in the world. Large plate of food at a nice mall in Bangkok costs like 1-2 dollars. Cheap housing and public transport also.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

@MedellinHeel

It wouldnt help, everyone thinks their situation/resume is unique.
There are bottom tier ISs that will hire staff without credentials.
Thailand is still cheap, but it isnt as cheap as it has been in the past.

@damok

Im not familiar with any real "Ivy" league Unis in Australia with the same prestige level as Harvard, Oxbridge, Sorbonne or McGill, maybe UoM? Youve taught all three subjects at 6 different grade levels in three years? I do not envy the lack of preps you must have had. What have you taught at school leaving level?

Tutoring, ESOL, Volunteering and Teachers Aid mean nothing.

1) You are as marketable as any entry level IT (qualification and 2 years teaching experience is the standard bar to entry). Asia and LA are primary regions for entry level ITs. Either you have hardship and/or low compensation.
The ME however is also a prime location, Id really consider if thats somewhere youd want to be, i wouldnt, and many ITs leave IE because of a train wreck of an experience. You could go to the ME say something to a student thats totally innocent or annoy one and the student tells their parents you insulted Muhammad or Allah and then youre in a ME jail. You could piss off some parent in Asia and find yourself in prison for misconduct or child abuse. Below you will find the PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System.

2) BT60K is the bottom of the IS market, Around BT90K is the 2nd tier, Around BT120K is the 1st tier and around BT150K+ is the elite tier. The real issue in compensation is looking at the cash equivalent benefits of OSH package, you can find 3rd tier ISs offering BT90K, but its a local hire package.
At a minimum of an OSH package for Thailand you want to see is: 1) Relocation (at minimum a flight at beginning and end of contract). 2) Housing (something either an apartment or an allowance, you can find something for BT5K but housing allowances can be as high as BT30K). 3) Insurance (an actual policy that will cover hospital care and not just the IS/DS nurse or some local clinic).
Living can still be very cheap in Thailand and BKK, you wont likely like it but there are a lot of cheap places to live.
How do you define "enjoy yourself"? This is Thailand, enjoyment has some very, very broad definitions.

3) You kind of have too, SA and TIE arent going to provide you an exhaustive vacancy search. Its appropriate to apply to a vacancy regardless of where you find it including on an ISs own HR/Employment web site.
Peak hiring season is from early January to Early February. Elite tier ISs are early/pre recruiting now. 1st tier ISs primarily recruit out of and around the BKK fair, they are done by February, except for changes and late vacancies. 2nd Tier ISs start in January as well but they will focus on the LON and to a lessor extent the BOS fairs. They are usually done by the end of February. Many 2nd tier ISs are IB ISs. Third tier ISs are at the BOS fair and continue their recruiting until they fill their vacancies, some ISs are always recruiting. Lastly, there is a surge in recruiting in WE in Spring since ITs/DTs can give late notice.

PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System:
1) 1 pt / 2 years Experience (Max 10 Years)
2) 1 pt - Advance Degree (Masters)
3) 1 pt - Cross Certified (Must be schedule-able)
4) 1 pt - Curriculum Experience (IB, AP, IGCSE)
5) 1pt - Logistical Hire (Single +.5 pt, Couple +1 pt)
6) .5 pt - Previous International School Experience (standard 2 year contract)
7) .5 pt - Leadership Experience/Role (+.25 HOD, +.5 Coordinator)
8) .5 pt - Extra Curricular (Must be schedule-able)
9) .25 pt - Special Populations (Must be qualified)
10) .25 pt - Special Skill Set (Must be documentable AND marketable)

IT CLASSES:
1) INTERN ITs have a score around 0
2) ENTRY ITs have a score around 2
3) CAREER ITs have a score around 4
4) PROFESSIONAL ITs have a score around 6
5) MASTER ITs have a score around 8
damok
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:33 am

Re: Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by damok »

Thanks to both of you for your response.

I do acknowledge that these type of questions get asked all the time and nor were my questions particularly 'unique'.

Psyguy:

No I haven't taught all three subjects at every level. I have taught Psychology at Year 10-12, plus working for The University of Melbourne tutoring undergraduates (not as a private tutor, as in taking classes). I have taught English at Years 7-11, Humanities at 7-9. So I do have experience teaching all year levels of secondary school, just not for every subject.

I did both my undergradute and masters at The University of Melbourne. Not 'Ivy League' but it is generally considered to be a good university internationally.

I would be happy to take third tier schools in Bangkok but obviously more money and benefits would be nice. I would be hoping for a relocation and housing allowance. In terms of Bangkok or other places in SE Asia, I am happy to just get my foot in the door and work with enough to get by, go out for some drinks on the weekend, backpack to some areas in the region over my holidays and have enough money to practice muay thai and have a gym membership. I am happy to eat street food most days and abstain from buying fancy clothes and owning a vehicle.

In terms of salary in Latin America, what would be realistic to expect for someone with a masters and 3 years Australian experience? I applied for a job today in Medellin, Colombia that was quoting $22,000-$25,000 US a year plus housing (actual housing - not a allowance). I know Colombia is not particularly experience (I have been there before) but this does seem quite low. Is this the type of salary one can expect or this at the lower end.

Finally, is it difficult for an Australian to break into schools with a US or UK curriculum. I am confident I can adapt but there are very few Australian International Schools. Most of the jobs I have applied for have a US curriculum.
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by sciteach »

Internationally, the university you went to means little. It may mean a little more if you have a masters degree for a leadership position. I'm guessing that you probably went to Melbourne Uni. For those who don't know the international university system - Melbourne university is actually ranked No 1 internationally for education by 1 or 2 or the university ranking systems. However, this means little when getting a job.

The most important thing is your references along with your experience in the classroom and with extra curriculars. Just to let you know - there are almost no real Australian international schools overseas. They are basically Australian schools in name only. Your best bet is to try for a British or IB school. The American system with it's common core curriculum is very different than the Australian system.

Onto your marketability - there is a job out there for you. It's just deciding how flexible you will be. Your subjects that you offer are what I call the "Baked Beans on Toast" variety, which basically means that there are LOTS of people who teach the same as you. Subjects which are in high demand are the same as the subjects which are high demand in Australia. That is; the sciences, math, design (computers/metal work/wood work etc), special needs and a couple of other subjects.

Your first job will probably not be at your ideal school and it will be challenging. However - most of us put in the hard yards and worked up into the better schools in more livable locations with time. That does not mean that you can't apply for your dream job - just realise that a lot of people are also applying for it as well.

Read the reviews on the paid section of this website - but also read them with a grain of salt. People rarely post positive reviews and if there are bad one and others which are totally glowing - who wrote the glowing ones?? Admin and whingers do write quite a few reviews but if there are 20 reviews with the same problems then it probably holds more weight

Thailand is a nice place to live - but international schools differ much more in quality compared to what you will see in Victoria. If your joining Search - speak to Nick Kendall and ask to go to the Jan Search Fair in Melbourne. Around 60 international schools go - with most of the schools being reasonable. Most jobs are filled in Jan and Feb for the better schools. The only thing I'll say is don't move to Europe if you expect to save any money period....

As always - these are my personal opinions and read into it what you wish....
chilagringa
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:19 pm

Re: Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by chilagringa »

There are only a few schools in Latin America that pay well. I work at the tier one school for a big LA country, and I don't make a ton of money. I do save about 700-1000 dollars a month, but I had to get a roommate to do that. One of the main reasons I won't stay here forever. The school is great for my resume though so I think I can move on to one of the big boys in Asia or the ME after a few years here.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@damok

When you write English from years 7-11 are you referring to literature or English language ESOL?
Tutoring still means nothing. I thought you were referring to UoM.

Disagree with @SciTeach, if you graduate from an "Ivy" you can bank on the pedigree of that alone within some circles and tiers of IE. A lot of third tier Asian ISs would hire an Ivy graduate just for the status is would afford the IS. Outside of that, unless the recruiter or leadership is an alumni, where you went to Uni does not matter. An M.Ed or other Masters in Ed.Ld doesnt make a difference when applying to leadership roles, with the exception of the above aforementioned scenarios, not even a little bit.

You wouldnt own a vehicle outside of a scooter or bike in Thailand, not in Bangkok, youd kill yourself or be blamed for killing someone else. High end clothes are pretty cheap, they make some outstanding reproductions. tailors can duplicate just about anything right down the "right" labels, high quality, custom tailored, and cheaper than an athletic membership.
Backpacking is cheap, its walking outside while carrying stuff on your back, you really dont need to budget for that.
Mua Thai would be difficult if you have any current experience or training at all, as an instructor who is fluent enough in English to really grow and develop your skill would be difficult to find after a certain very basic level.
Gyms have a lot of variability in amenities, services, atmosphere and cost. Their are some amazing facilities out of hotels that would be very pricy, but their are also gyms that are little more than practice space and some basics like bags, weights, and jump ropes that are cheap even at the "foreigner" rate.
Street food is almost a non expense, its away of getting rid of coins.
"Go out for some drinks on the weekends" that could be interpreted broadly. On one end you have a stool, a pint and a rugby game with some mates, on the other end you have [young, very young] girls, bikinis, blow, and my good friends Jack and Jim while watching various live sports that involve a lot more of the red stuff we find in living things being forcibly spilled on the floor (gravity its the law) with said same mates. Its a very broad spectrum in Bangkok.

L.A. and S.A. generally dont pay very high salaries, its a gateway to better ISs and some carefree fun and sun. You have to be okay leaving without coin, but rich in experiences. $22K-$25K is reasonable, there are ISs in the same regions that pay less. Ive seen vacancies that are $15K and less, and your housing is a shared flat/house.

Australians tend to do well as anyone at both AS and BS. Australian ISs tend to be low tier ISs and many of the worst train wrecks of an IS are "Australian" ISs, though they arent really Australian ISs in anything much more than name, or they have a couple of Australians on faculty. One of the primary reasons being that there really isnt the equivalent of a regulatory agency for foreign Australian curriculum nor is there an applicable Inspectorate. Legitimate Australian ISs tend to be part of a European IS, maybe with an Australian division or at least a lead IT, or they tend to be assimilated into BSs (British).

Disagree with @SciTeach: if you graduate from an "Ivy" you can bank on the pedigree of that alone within some circles and tiers of IE. A lot of third tier Asian ISs would hire an Ivy graduate just for the status is would afford the IS. Outside of that, unless the recruiter or leadership is an alumni, where you went to Uni does not matter. An M.Ed or other Masters in Ed.Ld doesnt make a difference when applying to leadership roles, with the exception of the above aforementioned scenarios, not even a little bit.

References arent really that important, you either have them and their good or you dont in which case its bad. Most references dont say very much in general. Leadership rep references as the golden ticket, since its the only real means of controlling an IT, and a lot of fear mongering and smoke and mirrors goes into the value of a reference.

Classroom experience and success is key, thats real data recruiter can bank on. ASPs are expected everyone does them and they only add a trivial amount of value if an IS can actually market it to the parents.

Differences in curriculum at school leaving level (whether A levels, DIP, or AP) are insignificant. The content is the same what differs is the meds/peds of delivering it, but best practices are best practices. if you can teach adolescents your subject successfully its doesnt really matter the curriculum. The differences increase as you go down grade levels. Your upper secondary psychology experience is going to be applicable regardless of the curriculum.

Common core would have nothing to do with a a psychology or humanities IT, it addresses only maths and reading, so common core for those subjects is irrelevant.

The rule is you go to the best fair you can get an invite too, the Australia fir is just an early dump fair. Its in the middle of the week just as holiday is ending and is right before the BKK fair which is the real focus in IE recruiting.
damok
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:33 am

Re: Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by damok »

Sciteach:

Thanks for the advice. I am happy to go to most parts of the world and put in the hard yards in a less than ideal school. I'm expecting that this will happen anyway. Ideally SE Asia, specifically Thailand, would be my first choice. Latin America would be second (although the low pay is a bit of a disincentive). But I am happy to look at India, Eastern Europe, other parts of Asia and parts of the middle East, except the overly restrictive countries like Saudi or ones with civil unrest/war.

Speaking of references. I'm still waiting for two of my referees to do my confidential referee forms. One is the Vice Principal of my current school, the other is a Learning and Teaching leader (pretty high up leadership position at my school). is it worth getting the Principal to also write a reference? The other two referees know me better, so that is why I have gone with them. Also, how important are the parent references? I'm a little worried about word getting around the student body that I am planning on leaving if I ask a parent from my current school. Also, a bit worried that asking a parent to do this will be frowned upon by the school admin. I could always try and get in contact with a parent from my previous school.

Psyguy:

In terms of a night out drinking, yeah it could range significantly in expense but the most expensive would probably be having a night out at a decent night club or bar.

I have done Muay Thai for a few years so I know the basics - I'm nothing special though.

In terms of curriculum, I'm just happy to get a job and I would be happy teaching either UK, US or IB. IB would be best for the experience. The only issue that might come up is if I taught History and would have to teach a time in History I know nothing about, but that happens in Australia as well and it is interesting to be learning something new. I think Psychology and English content knowledge and skills should transfer over without too many difficulties.

But to answer your question, the only subject that I have taught to year 12 (school leavers) is Psychology - that is the subject I have the most knowledge on (and sadly the one with the least job openings).
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

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Post by PsyGuy »

@damok

L.A. and S.A salary isnt low its well above what a local in a similar profession would earn. The issue is if you financial obligation out of the country or when you eventually leave, you realize your "savings" doesnt go very far outside of that economy.

I would recommend you have your principal or HOS complete a reference for you, ISs are going to want o talk to your current HOS in one form or another, you might as well start the process by having them complete a reference.

The parent reference really isnt weighed very heavily (some ISs also require a student letter, or will include students in the selection process as part of the interview, etc.). If your concerned about what will happen at your current IS/DS ask a parent from your previous IS to complete the parent reference. Parent references are more common in IE then the are in Domestic school systems.

Those clubs can get pricy, but nothing you couldnt afford as long as you werent spending time sitting talking to strange woman while they sip a really tiny glass of coke.

If you want to do do is go over some katas or forms by yourself you have plenty of options, and you can find very basic gyms that are cheap. Its when you want to get an instructor with an English proficiency sufficient to grow and improve that you are going to have problems. I mention the issue because in BKK you will find thai instructors with no idea what they are doing but will take a group of beginners and just tell them they are learning Muay Thai, or whatever, and the students wont have any clue they arent, until after the instructor has the money.
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Questions from a newbie to IS

Post by sciteach »

Parent reviews from memory are just to give a snapshot of what parents think. As I'm not admin - I don't know how important they are. Others will know more.

Having the principal is quite important and I don't think it's that uncommon for some people in higher admin to not know every nook and cranny of each teacher. For example - I would not expect my current HOS to know me that well when there are 180 teachers working at the school.
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