Teaching couple question

steve416
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by steve416 »

On the subject of male primary teachers (note: I am a male primary teacher) I think whether you are in demand really depends on those involved in the hiring process and school community. In my limited time in education I have felt real stigma towards being a man working with kids and real encouragement/support so it is hard to make sweeping statements. I have definitely been pushed into upper primary grades though, no doubt. I had taught ESL in a kindergarten for 2 years before returning to finish a B'ed and had wanted to keep working with that age group but found it difficult. Perhaps my experiences were out of the norm or my difficulty finding a kindy spot was due to some other factor(s).

@psyguy

Your point about turnover of primary staff is interesting. If you are referring to elite/1st tier schools then my experiences will not be relevant. Both schools I have worked at have had a mix of primary teachers who were single or married to another teacher (often a secondary/middle school teacher, I imagine this is the result of gender divide). There have always been more primary positions then science/math positions. Turnover between married and single primary seemed about the same. Admittedly at 1st/elite tier schools turnover may be less but I imagine it would be less across the board not just in primary. The challenge in primary seems to always be the number of primary teachers but it seems this exists for pretty much anyone other than Science/Math teachers.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@steve416

I wouldnt disagree with your characterization of primary. What I dont see is IE and recruiters looking for male primary ITs. They are okay with one in upper primary and mainly year 5 and year 6, but I dont see recruiters getting excited over a male year 1 IT or anything even close. Parents (moms) still want those maternal female ITs with their little ones in the classroom.

Primary is half of EC-12 education, i dont see half the vacancies every recruiting year being primary vacancies. There isnt a 1:1 ratio of primary:secondary vacancies.

While science/maths is a stable in demand area there are others and what makes them in demand is how inched they are. Music IT isnt in huge demand, but a music IT who has recital experience in choral and wood winds is going to be much less competitive. You would find similar niche vacancies in areas like design technology, SEN/LS, PHE, etc.. There is a difference between a vacancy for a biology IT and a biology IT who can also teach health career technology, or a physics/science IT that can also do robotics or some other niched STEM subject.

Elite tier ISs have very low turnover (generally), an elite tier IS can go a whole year and not have to recruit anyone. When a teaching couple departs, its often a primary vacancy thats vacated as part of the departure.
Snowbeavers
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by Snowbeavers »

@psyguy "I wouldnt disagree with your characterization of primary. What I dont see is IE and recruiters looking for male primary ITs. They are okay with one in upper primary and mainly year 5 and year 6, but I dont see recruiters getting excited over a male year 1 IT or anything even close. Parents (moms) still want those maternal female ITs with their little ones in the classroom."

So male teachers can't be nurturing? Pretty sexist comment psyguy. It's pretty obvious you don't have any experience in ES. As a male elementary teacher in many top international schools, I would totally disagree with you on both points. Firstly, I can tell you that admin do go out of their way to look for ES male teachers (many of my admin friends have told me this and I have gone through many recruiting fairs). They always want a healthy balance (although always lopsided towards females) and ideally, one male per grade. A good male ES teachers are always high in demand. Good functioning teams need diversity to succeed and gender is one of those that adds to it.

Secondly, I would argue that many parents (moms as you say), do want their kids to have at least one male teacher through their ES journey. They tell me how great it is for their kids to have male role models at an early age. I've had countless parents tell me how great it was for their son/daughter to be in my class and have a male teacher.
steve416
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by steve416 »

@psyguy

"Primary is half of EC-12 education, i dont see half the vacancies every recruiting year being primary vacancies. There isnt a 1:1 ratio of primary:secondary vacancies."

I don't think anyone is suggesting that nor would it make sense as a judge of the primary (or male primary) IT market. What's commonly articulated about the primary market is the volume of primary teachers. There are a lot of them because anyone with an undergrad can become qualified and any primary IT can apply for any primary IT job. The point I was making before is that there are of course primary jobs that don't go to the spouses of high needs secondary teachers. How many of those jobs there are or at what schools will vary based on all sorts of intangibles.

@snowbeavers

"So male teachers can't be nurturing? Pretty sexist comment psyguy."

I don't think he was saying that male teachers can't be nurturing he was implying parents think that they can't be nurturing. Really if anything he was being sexist in his take on Mothers and their potential hang ups over male primary teachers.

I hope you are right about the desire to employ male primary IT's! I've written about my background in other threads so I won't repeat it here but this year I am recruiting with the goal of working in a big Asian city (guangzhou, hk, busan, seoul, shanghai....less large places in SE Asia etc). I'd be happy at a solid tier 2 school. I will post about how my job hunt goes as time goes on, then we can all argue about whether or not me being a man had anything to do with my results!
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Snowbeavers

We disagree regarding the demand of male primary ITs.

Male primary ITs are perceived as less nurturing. In many of these cultures thats exactly what the family dynamic is. Fathers work and provide for the family and mothers take care of the family. It doesnt matter if its sexist, its true.

Then where are the programs, the incentives, to develop more male primary ITs/DTs? If all the recruiters, leadership and parents want more male primary ITs, why isnt there a program to address that imbalance? They arent there because while recruiters and admins talk, thats all it is, is talk.

How is one male IT per grade balanced (unless their are only 2 classes of each grade)? Wanting and ideals are just that, and thats lip service, I dont see that kind of balance.

I dont see how a Y chromosome increases team productivity especially in an environment that is largely under the direction of an individual IT.

I can see how parents (mom) would like one male primary IT, thats often seen in upper primary particularly years 5/6. Thats one grade in 6 that doesnt indicate "demand" for me.

Parents always say nice things, what did you expect them to tell you to your face they dont approve of your gender directing their childs classroom? Id be more concerned about having to resort to your gender s a basis for a compliment.

@steve416

Accessibility requirements for primary qualifications differ by region. In many US states it is as easy to add a primary qualification as it is to add a physics qualification, you take the test, pass and you get the certification. I would agree that primary level content competence is easier to achieve in primary education than secondary maths or other content areas. Its primary education and college graduates, which can be the biggest problem. We take reading for granted and a lot of upper secondary ITs I have seen that obtained a qualification in primary have difficulty with such fundamental skills in teaching 1st year students the basics of reading. Much of work in the classroom in primary is about focusing students attention, and maximizing students cognitive resources. Secondary students will enter a classroom and sit down in their seats (more or less) and direct their attention to the IT. Very young primary students dont know how to do that, an IT needs to take advantage of peripheral learning opportunities.

Well Primary IT has relatively low turnover, yes there are primary positions that dont go to couples. Some of those do actually become vacancies and are recruited for, and since those vacancies have attached OSH packages to them, any IS can easly get dozens of applications for those vacancies. Many of those positions though never become vacancies they are filled locally.
Walter
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by Walter »

Just as an FYI, I actively recruit male teachers for elementary school. I agree that it's good for kids to see nurturing, caring males in the classroom, and it's good for the teachers at each grade level to have male voices in discussions about planning and pedagogy.
steve416
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by steve416 »

@ psyguy

I think the issue people are taking with your argument is that you are making these really broad statements. It is possible that you have access to some resource with lots of IT info but without you sharing that source you're making really broad statements based on anecdotal evidence. The same anecdotal evidence that pretty much the entire readership of the forum has to some degree or another. Specifically your claims of low turnover and local hires at primary schools seems WAY too broad to me.

As to the male primary thing:

There is no doubt that primary spots are really competitive. There is no doubt that some schools/admin prefer hiring female primary teachers, there is no doubt that some schools/admin actively recruit male primary teachers and there is no doubt that gender is a non factor at many schools. The argument/discussion is about how MANY of each exist.

Your argument that there isn't a program/system to recruit more male IT's speaks to the fact that there is no an overwhelming/undeniable need for men in primary hiring but that is pretty much it. Do any such programs exist for any position in the international school world? It seems like the IS world is too spread out for anything coherent like that to exist especially in a field like primary where there are lots of qualified teachers (male teachers would at best be a preference not a necessity) . There will be "trends" in hiring of course, even in primary and I think that is what other posters are speaking to.

As I stated before I think there is not black or white answer. When researching a school recently I saw that the entire primary staff was female. Maybe they don't get many male applicants and would be very receptive to my application. Maybe they don't hire male staff. Maybe the staff were simply the best qualified and gender was a not an issue in their hiring.
Snowbeavers
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by Snowbeavers »

@psyguy

"Male primary ITs are perceived as less nurturing. In many of these cultures thats exactly what the family dynamic is. Fathers work and provide for the family and mothers take care of the family. It doesnt matter if its sexist, its true."

It was true.... in 1973 but let me bring you into the 21st century. Fathers and Mothers both work now. Both play a shared role in taking care of the family. More often, we have stay at home dads taking care of the family. Here's an example in Sweden: http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/th ... .jtXxrrNBZ

Since I know you'll say "yeah, but that's Sweden.." let's look at some actual statistics. Now, there were over 2 million stay at home dads in 2012 (16%) in the US. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/06/ ... -the-kids/

Those are just stay at home dads. Many fathers play an active role in parenthood (I could quote numerous other stats from parenting books) so your point that "fathers work and provide for the family and mothers take care of the family" is simply untrue.

Your other point of "I dont see how a Y chromosome increases team productivity especially in an environment that is largely under the direction of an individual IT. " shows you clearly don't understand team dynamics or how teams operate. Teams don't operate in a top down fashion (at least not in ES), they are a shared collaborative dynamic entity that require diversity. Gender is something that adds to this.

I'm not sure what programs you are talking about as incentives. I do know that admin do want higher numbers of male teachers in ES and they are in high demand (simply because the supply is low) and will more likely than not, add a male teacher to a team given all other things equal. When I talk about balance, they will never be balanced gender-wise but my point is that they will try and add at least one male ES teacher to a grade level team if possible.
Ifyousayso
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by Ifyousayso »

Those stats about working mums/ stay at home dads go out the window in Thailand when you have 75% local kids.
shadowjack
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by shadowjack »

I also think PG is painting with a broad brush. In my experience at different schools (good ones) admin has always looked for males as part of the primary make up. PG can point out that there are lots of male primary teachers out there, but frankly I haven't seen it from my end of things.

As to why is there no recruiting campaigns, when do US universities offer recruiting campaigns to anybody but athletes? LOL And in the UK, there is a glut of primary and junior school teachers, so adding more into the mix is not the answer.

Go for it. You are marketable.

shad
OzGrad
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by OzGrad »

Having a 10:1 ratio of female to male teachers is not ideal for a rounded education.

Good if you enjoy gossip :)

My understanding is private schools tend to have a better female to male balance.
auntiesocial
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by auntiesocial »

Of course primary sections of international schools are always looking for good male teachers. The assertion that parents ultimately decide what type of teachers they want for their children would be a reasonable point if it weren't for the fact that parents don't interview and hire international teachers - admin do.

A healthy mix of male and female elementary school teachers is not only good for children, but also good for school culture.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@steve416

I dont doubt leadership actively recruits male primary ITs, I dont see the evidence that they do. Gender is more a factor than it isnt. leadership just doesnt want to be non-PC.

Yes those programs exist. The UK is aggressively recruiting maths/physics ITs/DTs, many regions are very aggressively recruiting for SEN/LS DTs, and when these shortages exist government and Uni programs are created or modified to support building those groups of DTs/ITs.

Except its not a trend, its been the long term status quo. Female primary ITs were the historical norm and they continue to be, and the appearance of that changing, is marketing and advertising. If this was a real issue that leadership or IE/DE wanted to change there are the resources to do so.

Male primary ITs want to think theyre in demand because it makes them feel better and feel special.

@Snowbeavers

Those statistics are based on Sweden and US data, its not applicable to many overseas regions such as Asia.

What basis do you claim that effective "shared collaborative dynamic" teams REQUIRE diversity, specifically gender diversity? Is a team of all female primary ITs necessitate deficiency because they dont have a male on the team? Is a group of all male maths teachers necessitate deficiency because there isnt a female on the team. There is no evidence that biological gender differences are a significant factor in group and team dynamics, otherwise please provide the protein sequences that are encoded only on the X and Y chromosomes for group/team dynamics.

I dont find that claim to be true, there has been little variation in the demand for male primary educators. Recruiters are no more engaged is specifically recruiting male primary ITs, and there is no evidence that their low numbers has increased demand or increases their marketability.
Basing a hiring decision on a protected class like gender such as hireling a male IT or a female IT based solely on that factor, would be illegal in many regional jurisdictions.

@auntiesocial

True recruiters leadership hire ITs, but leadership reports to ownership, and the IS must meet the demand of the customers and client, and those are parents. Parents have a great deal of influence in hiring decisions.
Walter
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by Walter »

@Dave Please translate this sentence into English

I dont doubt leadership actively recruits male primary ITs, I dont see the evidence that they do. Gender is more a factor than it isnt. leadership just doesnt want to be non-PC.

It’s really difficult to scoff when I can’t follow you
steve416
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Re: Teaching couple question

Post by steve416 »

@psyguy

I feel like your not really reading my posts.

I am not arguing that male primary teachers are in demand. I was suggesting that you are "painting with a broad brush" and it is irking people.

As to recruitment programs existing I addressed that issue in my previous post. I think it rather logically explains why these programs may not exist. I thought you were referring to recruitment programs in international education and that was pretty clear in my last post. That said I think my logic holds either way.

I think it is complicated (as previously stated). The OP may find that some people want him because he is a male primary teacher and some people don't for the same reason (if you reread the last paragraph of my previous post I think this is pretty clear).

The "trend" in hiring I was making reference to IS the hiring of male primary, hence me referring to it as a trend.
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