Hey all,
I had a couple questions about the coming recruiting season. A quick background on me: I am a primary teacher from Canada working in the PYP for the second year (Grade 5), I spent two years at an English National Curriculum School (so 4 years counting this year) both School in Eastern Europe. I am in my late 20's and would like to stay working in the PYP if that is applicable.
My partner works in Finance for a large multinational. We have been discussing making a move to Asia (I previously taught ESL there for a couple years). In my partners industry it seems like China or S.Korea are possible options for her to transfer. These seemed like reasonable options in my opinion as there appear to be lot of schools there and it would likely not be as competitive as Europe/S.E. Asia. Thoughts on any of the above?
My two questions are:
During the recruiting process what is the etiquette on mentioning my partner. We are not married but live together and would continue to do so after the move. The school would not need to sponsor her work visa, insurance etc. Conversely her workplace will not be sponsoring mine. I was thinking I would mention her at some point in the interview stage, any later seems too late and earlier seems ill advised? Anyone navigated a situation like this before?
Given my relatively limited search parameters (we have a list of just under ten places that are possible at the moment) do you think it would be advisable to attend a fair? I was thinking it might not be worthwhile (in a cost vs opportunity type equation) as it may not give me access to many places I would like to apply. Opinions on this?
Etiquette and expectations
Response
To your first question, I see one and one major relevant issue, and thats housing. Presumably you are going to live together and if its IS provided housing they have a right and will find out if someone else is living there, which may be a problem. The same is true of your partner. You have some options:
1) Its none of their business, youre at arms length away, your basically two people dating and traveling together. Your not married and there is no support from the IS to be extended to your partner, so its none of their business. You could (if permitted) take the housing in the form of a housing allowance and pocketing it while living in your partners residence (which may well be better and larger than yours). The only problem is at some point someone going to find out and leadership may "feel" you were dishonest in some way.
2) Are you a hetro-sexual couple? If yes then this doesnt apply to you, but if you arent your IS may have a problem with this, and you dont have a job anymore.
3) You tell them, and either they shrug, or they have some issues, want some information. At worst they dont distinguish between the two and they consider you having a trailing spouse, which would make you less competitive.
Second inquiry, if your search is very limited and narrow, you dont need a premium agency. Premium agencies are best when you have a broad job search as they are efficient. If its 10 ISs you can check their HR pages and the job roll sites just as fast.
Fairs are useful again, if you have broad interests, or your pre-recruiting, otherwise your going too a fair at considerable expense to maybe have a couple interviews, at most. You have a lot of factors, ISs attending, their vacancies, and if they are interested in you or not (will they give you an advance interview slot?). It is highly likely you could attend the fair and not get a single interview, much less an offer.
1) Its none of their business, youre at arms length away, your basically two people dating and traveling together. Your not married and there is no support from the IS to be extended to your partner, so its none of their business. You could (if permitted) take the housing in the form of a housing allowance and pocketing it while living in your partners residence (which may well be better and larger than yours). The only problem is at some point someone going to find out and leadership may "feel" you were dishonest in some way.
2) Are you a hetro-sexual couple? If yes then this doesnt apply to you, but if you arent your IS may have a problem with this, and you dont have a job anymore.
3) You tell them, and either they shrug, or they have some issues, want some information. At worst they dont distinguish between the two and they consider you having a trailing spouse, which would make you less competitive.
Second inquiry, if your search is very limited and narrow, you dont need a premium agency. Premium agencies are best when you have a broad job search as they are efficient. If its 10 ISs you can check their HR pages and the job roll sites just as fast.
Fairs are useful again, if you have broad interests, or your pre-recruiting, otherwise your going too a fair at considerable expense to maybe have a couple interviews, at most. You have a lot of factors, ISs attending, their vacancies, and if they are interested in you or not (will they give you an advance interview slot?). It is highly likely you could attend the fair and not get a single interview, much less an offer.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
We are a hetero- couple.
You raise some interesting points, I think I have to bring it up before signing on the dotted line. Anything else I fear could cause ill feelings. I am thinking bring it up in the interview when it feels natural, hopefully after having made a good impression. Clearly people will find out, you would have to be so careful otherwise to hide it from colleagues, leadership etc (can you imagine spending years not mentioning a live in girlfriend). It seems like I just need to emphasize that she won't require any support from the school.
The housing thing is tricky but I think if I can bring it up early we can sort something reasonable out. I think the worse the school likely the worse this will go. Anyone else pulled something like this off? A housing stipend would be best as my partners work will likely provide support finding an apt but not pay for it in the fashion that some IS's do.
I actually meant 10 locations not schools but that number will be thinned as recruiting season goes on and my partners options thin as well. I think I might keep an eye on the school list for the London search fair (it doesn't seem to be up yet) and if it shows up with all options I want I might change my mind. I've never attended a Search fair before only a smaller one (TORF), would it be reasonable to assume I could get an invite if I signed up in late October/early November? From the description on the website I fit most of the criteria (IB, SEN Co-ordinator at current school etc).
You raise some interesting points, I think I have to bring it up before signing on the dotted line. Anything else I fear could cause ill feelings. I am thinking bring it up in the interview when it feels natural, hopefully after having made a good impression. Clearly people will find out, you would have to be so careful otherwise to hide it from colleagues, leadership etc (can you imagine spending years not mentioning a live in girlfriend). It seems like I just need to emphasize that she won't require any support from the school.
The housing thing is tricky but I think if I can bring it up early we can sort something reasonable out. I think the worse the school likely the worse this will go. Anyone else pulled something like this off? A housing stipend would be best as my partners work will likely provide support finding an apt but not pay for it in the fashion that some IS's do.
I actually meant 10 locations not schools but that number will be thinned as recruiting season goes on and my partners options thin as well. I think I might keep an eye on the school list for the London search fair (it doesn't seem to be up yet) and if it shows up with all options I want I might change my mind. I've never attended a Search fair before only a smaller one (TORF), would it be reasonable to assume I could get an invite if I signed up in late October/early November? From the description on the website I fit most of the criteria (IB, SEN Co-ordinator at current school etc).
Reply
The issue your going to run into bringing it up, is that in the IE and IS mind set, the scenario you describe doesnt exist for the ISs leadership/recruiter. You say your separate but what they see is a couple willing to travel together that may likely get married, and then one spouse gets pregnant and then you become a couple with a trailing spouse. Thats how they have to see it, because the alternatives are worse. You are either a single or a couple and there really isnt an in between.
Many ITs have live in girlfriends and other relationships that the IS and leadership doesnt have the faintest interest in. Look at BKK ISs and the single IT scene there and youd need a dedicated secretary to keep up with the weekend activities and changes to the staffs relationships. In reality very few people are going to care beyond a few words who you are dating, etc.
There isnt much to bring up, ISs generally dont make exceptions or negotiate benefits like housing individually. There is a general policy and procedure. Some have one option that applies to everyone and some have a couple or a few, and may or may not have restrictions or limitations (such as all first year staff MUST live in provided housing and then may elect an allowance, etc.) There isnt anything to really bring up you select from the options available. If an IS provides housing directly and thats there only option your at a disadvantage attempting to turn that into a housing allowance, (and there may be good reason, such as the housing situation requires advance payment of the full years lease, etc)
Its likely LON but better is always preferable. Try to pick Hayden as your Associate (may require some subterfuge), since organizers always have access to their own invitations.
Many ITs have live in girlfriends and other relationships that the IS and leadership doesnt have the faintest interest in. Look at BKK ISs and the single IT scene there and youd need a dedicated secretary to keep up with the weekend activities and changes to the staffs relationships. In reality very few people are going to care beyond a few words who you are dating, etc.
There isnt much to bring up, ISs generally dont make exceptions or negotiate benefits like housing individually. There is a general policy and procedure. Some have one option that applies to everyone and some have a couple or a few, and may or may not have restrictions or limitations (such as all first year staff MUST live in provided housing and then may elect an allowance, etc.) There isnt anything to really bring up you select from the options available. If an IS provides housing directly and thats there only option your at a disadvantage attempting to turn that into a housing allowance, (and there may be good reason, such as the housing situation requires advance payment of the full years lease, etc)
Its likely LON but better is always preferable. Try to pick Hayden as your Associate (may require some subterfuge), since organizers always have access to their own invitations.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
Your perspective on the international school "mindset" is interesting as I would not have read the situation quite that way (not disputing your take on the situation at all).
By "work something reasonable out" I wasn't so much implying that I negotiate as simply put my cards on the table and see what response I get. Admittedly this is a rather boy scoutish take on the situation and I will seriously consider keeping my personal life personal moving froward.
Your last paragraph confuses me a bit. Are you saying it is likely that I would be able to get an invitation to the London fair? Any suggestions on how to make sure I get a certain associate on Search?
By "work something reasonable out" I wasn't so much implying that I negotiate as simply put my cards on the table and see what response I get. Admittedly this is a rather boy scoutish take on the situation and I will seriously consider keeping my personal life personal moving froward.
Your last paragraph confuses me a bit. Are you saying it is likely that I would be able to get an invitation to the London fair? Any suggestions on how to make sure I get a certain associate on Search?
Re: Etiquette and expectations
The bottom line is that if a school wants you they will "work something out" and if they don't or if they have 100 people they can hire for the job, they won't even bother dealing with you.
Just apply to any school that interests you and try to get interviews and be honest and it will be what it will be.
Good luck.
Just apply to any school that interests you and try to get interviews and be honest and it will be what it will be.
Good luck.
Reply
@steve416
Its highly likely you would get an invite to the LON fair, but the sooner you apply, are accepted and then request one the better.
Candidates choose their associate, sort of. You need to understand that SA is not like a recruiting firm where the associates are employees. They are more like independent contractors or franchisees, that essentially run their own business and office, and just pay a percentage to use the Search umbrella. To keep the system from becoming cut throat SA assigns responsibility for certain demographics, mainly based on a candidates location, to specific associates. If a candidate resides in X region, that the associate for that region is supposed to be the one they choose. However, SA will never mail you anything, or verify your address, so you could say you lived anywhere and then if it ever becomes an issue just change your address, and say you moved.
Fairs are organized/run by certain associates, the associate who organizes a fair, has almost exclusive control over it. An associate can essentially issue as many invites to their own candidates for the fairs they organize as they want. Hayden organizes the January LON fair, so if anyone has the best chance of getting you an invite for that fair, its going to be the associate who organizes that fair.
@senator does have a valid point, the issue for you is that you seem highly selective, and those ISs your interested in are going to have a significant pool of applicants for their vacancies, they arent going to change their compensation package for you, when they can just go to the next application and candidate.
Its highly likely you would get an invite to the LON fair, but the sooner you apply, are accepted and then request one the better.
Candidates choose their associate, sort of. You need to understand that SA is not like a recruiting firm where the associates are employees. They are more like independent contractors or franchisees, that essentially run their own business and office, and just pay a percentage to use the Search umbrella. To keep the system from becoming cut throat SA assigns responsibility for certain demographics, mainly based on a candidates location, to specific associates. If a candidate resides in X region, that the associate for that region is supposed to be the one they choose. However, SA will never mail you anything, or verify your address, so you could say you lived anywhere and then if it ever becomes an issue just change your address, and say you moved.
Fairs are organized/run by certain associates, the associate who organizes a fair, has almost exclusive control over it. An associate can essentially issue as many invites to their own candidates for the fairs they organize as they want. Hayden organizes the January LON fair, so if anyone has the best chance of getting you an invite for that fair, its going to be the associate who organizes that fair.
@senator does have a valid point, the issue for you is that you seem highly selective, and those ISs your interested in are going to have a significant pool of applicants for their vacancies, they arent going to change their compensation package for you, when they can just go to the next application and candidate.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
@ senator thanks for contributing. That is more or less how I see the situation, depends on my relative value and perhaps a little bit on how I am able to frame my situation (in my mind it really is no different than arriving at a new school/city and meeting/dating another expat there in that my partner is of 0 burden to the school).
Thank you for shedding light on the search associates situation.
I agree being too selective is a sure path to failure. I am being a little vague about my partners situation as what she does isn't relevant to the IS world at all. The corporation she is employed by is huge and it is possible that she could go more places than the aforementioned China and South Korea those are just places that have expressed interest but it is early days.
I have been pushing a bit towards China as Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou seem to have a lot of schools (though less PYP schools than I had imagined). I wouldn't mind leaving the PYP but I would prefer if possible to stay in it or perhaps something like the IPC. Managing the timing of the whole thing (presuming I am able to get offers) also seems like it will be incredibly challenging, the corporate world hires on a completely different schedule it would seem.
I think long term if a traveling working together relationship is going to work I will end up being the trailing spouse of my partner and then looking for work as a local hire at places(which I am okay with).
Thank you for shedding light on the search associates situation.
I agree being too selective is a sure path to failure. I am being a little vague about my partners situation as what she does isn't relevant to the IS world at all. The corporation she is employed by is huge and it is possible that she could go more places than the aforementioned China and South Korea those are just places that have expressed interest but it is early days.
I have been pushing a bit towards China as Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou seem to have a lot of schools (though less PYP schools than I had imagined). I wouldn't mind leaving the PYP but I would prefer if possible to stay in it or perhaps something like the IPC. Managing the timing of the whole thing (presuming I am able to get offers) also seems like it will be incredibly challenging, the corporate world hires on a completely different schedule it would seem.
I think long term if a traveling working together relationship is going to work I will end up being the trailing spouse of my partner and then looking for work as a local hire at places(which I am okay with).
Re: Etiquette and expectations
You should easily find a job in China as more and more people are getting turned off by the air, soil, water, etc. pollution and there are so many schools in that country - I worked there for 7 years.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
When I was hired for my current position, I did not inform my school that my boyfriend would be joining me. I didn't see the need since I came to a country where he could find work, handle his own visa, etc (and did). It was not an attempt at deception, nor do I think that mentioning him would have been an issue.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
@Senator that was my hope when pushing for China.
@Martalin thank you for sharing your story. If you don't mind sharing (I'm presuming you live with your BF) is housing a part of your compensation package? Do you get a housing allowance or a provided flat? Something else I haven't mentioned?
@Martalin thank you for sharing your story. If you don't mind sharing (I'm presuming you live with your BF) is housing a part of your compensation package? Do you get a housing allowance or a provided flat? Something else I haven't mentioned?
Re: Etiquette and expectations
Thought I would throw up another questions here. Started with the search application got emailed with info about fees etc. Because I am a UK citizen (and canadian citizen) I assumed I didn't have to pay fees. I have spent some time in both countries growing up but was educated and sent most of my time in Canada.
I have "addresses" in both as a result of my family situation. Is it unprofessional or negative to question why I am paying fees (assuming my assumption about fees for UK residents)?
I have "addresses" in both as a result of my family situation. Is it unprofessional or negative to question why I am paying fees (assuming my assumption about fees for UK residents)?
Re: Etiquette and expectations
steve416 wrote:
> Thought I would throw up another questions here. Started with the search
> application got emailed with info about fees etc. Because I am a UK
> citizen (and canadian citizen) I assumed I didn't have to pay fees. I have
> spent some time in both countries growing up but was educated and sent most
> of my time in Canada.
>
> I have "addresses" in both as a result of my family situation.
> Is it unprofessional or negative to question why I am paying fees (assuming
> my assumption about fees for UK residents)?
hmm, i was under the impression everyone paid - but i could be wrong.
v.
> Thought I would throw up another questions here. Started with the search
> application got emailed with info about fees etc. Because I am a UK
> citizen (and canadian citizen) I assumed I didn't have to pay fees. I have
> spent some time in both countries growing up but was educated and sent most
> of my time in Canada.
>
> I have "addresses" in both as a result of my family situation.
> Is it unprofessional or negative to question why I am paying fees (assuming
> my assumption about fees for UK residents)?
hmm, i was under the impression everyone paid - but i could be wrong.
v.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
I could also be wrong.
My assumption is based on what I have heard from colleagues no first hand knowledge.
I'm inclined to just pay and not worry about it. At this point I want to try to do anything possible to increase the odds of success so I am not terribly fussed about the money.
My assumption is based on what I have heard from colleagues no first hand knowledge.
I'm inclined to just pay and not worry about it. At this point I want to try to do anything possible to increase the odds of success so I am not terribly fussed about the money.
Re: Etiquette and expectations
I receive a housing allowance for one person. The standard here is that the housing allowance is enough for a two bedroom flat, which is plenty for a couple.
As for your other question, Search requires fees from everyone, residents of the US, Canada, UK included.
As for your other question, Search requires fees from everyone, residents of the US, Canada, UK included.