Question for non-native speakers of English (language certs)

[OhYesIndeed]

Hello,

This is a question for everyone who is a non-native speaker of English or has relevant knowledge about hiring non-native speakers to teacher and management positions.

Is there a certain point in your career that an English certificate such as TOEFL, IELTS or CAE/CPE is simply not necessary anymore, owing to a postgraduate degree and/or impressive work experience in your field? A few scenarios:

- master's degree with relevant teaching experience in international schools;
- master's degree with extensive teaching and management experience in the applicant's own school system, but not in international schools;
- same two scenarios for someone with a PhD.

Are there any differences for teachers and managers, or does the teacher's specialty play a role? I would personally expect teachers of language and literature to have more strict requirements in this regard than some others, for example music or physical education.

Thank you in advance.

[sid]

I've never required an official certificate, rather just rely on how they come across in written and oral communication. Your note, for example, did not raise any red flags and showed professional use of English. If I were hiring you, I'd have more substantial written samples, plus a personal interview, and it would be clear whether you had the language skills needed.
Graduate work means nothing to me, as evidence of fluency, as I've known far too many advanced degrees who couldn't conjugate basic verbs in context.

[OhYesIndeed]

Thank you for your reply, this is very interesting. Do you mind giving some background as to what is your position or field of expertise? I completely understand if you do not wish to give any additional details.

Would articles that are written and published in English in relation to the postgraduate degree count as "proof" of language proficiency in your case?

[sid]

Me? I'm an admin type who's been hiring international teachers for about a decade. My degrees are in language and education.
I would certainly consider publications as evidence of fluency, but I'm wondering about your line of questioning. Has someone required "proof" from you? I'd find that odd, as fluency is usually made quite clear during the normal interview process.
What happens most often is that recruiters fall into two categories: those looking for exclusively mother tongue speakers, and those looking for professional fluency. The first category can be quite rigid and in my view are wrong. The second category is more flexible and will consider anyone with full fluency and without an overly strong accent.
Good luck.

[PsyGuy]

I agree with Sid, nothing you submit whether articles, etc is going to be more persuasive than your perceived language ability in an interview. Recruiters are going to want to hear you, and if you "sound" too foreign or non-native they arent going to care what credentials or publications you have.

Also agree with the graduate work example, polished writing isnt natural, recruiters want to know your language abilities on a day to day basis in a real work environment, not what you can polish for publication.

TESOL certificates generally arent worth very mush in the IE market, they are usually frowned on and indicate a candidate with less than professional qualifications who are backpackers trying to move up.
For a professional educator in ESOL a state/territory/provincial or government professional educator qualification that authorizes services to ELLs is the working qualification.

[OhYesIndeed]

Thank you for your replies, the information has been very helpful. At this point there are no concrete plans, however I find it necessary to be prepared and that's why I decided to look for some background information regarding the issue.

I have talked to a few international teachers and an interesting pattern has emerged. It seems that lower tier international schools are more rigid about hiring a native speaker to pander to the parents' prejudices. Top schools, it seems, are more focused on finding true talents in their field and thus have more broad and international panel of teachers and administrators. I don't know if this is actually true, but it is certainly the impression I have been left with.

[wrldtrvlr123]

OhYesIndeed wrote:
> Thank you for your replies, the information has been very helpful. At this point
> there are no concrete plans, however I find it necessary to be prepared and that's
> why I decided to look for some background information regarding the issue.
>
> I have talked to a few international teachers and an interesting pattern has emerged.
> It seems that lower tier international schools are more rigid about hiring a native
> speaker to pander to the parents' prejudices. Top schools, it seems, are more focused
> on finding true talents in their field and thus have more broad and international
> panel of teachers and administrators. I don't know if this is actually true, but
> it is certainly the impression I have been left with.
-----------------------------------------------------------
That does fit with the perceived (and often accurate) differences between lower and upper tier schools. Lower tier schools often count on the mere fact that they have Western (hopefully trained) teachers to attract local families and the cliche is that they only care about having "white faces" in the classroom and on the website. So, hiring a talented non-native English speaker, or even worse one that also looks like a non-native English speaker is going to cut into the image they are selling (since they may or may not have any credibility beyond that).

More established/upper tier schools can afford (and may prefer) to be more diverse, although they too will generally prefer that a majority of staff be from a Western country(ies) of their choice.

Case in point, when I ran a small special needs school in an Asian country, I was hesitating on hiring an attractive blonde young lady in a specialist position as I was concerned about her English proficiency (especially her written communication skills). While I dithered though, a much larger but brand new international school snapped her up to be an early childhood classroom teacher. :S

[PsyGuy]

I concur with WT, lower tier ISs have their image to sell and maintain, and many of the parents who are paying those fees want western (white) faces in the classroom and the school, regardless of talent. It doesnt help that many lower tier ISs are little more than English language schools offering English for academic purposes, using a western curriculum (that is little more than having western teachers teach what they want).

Upper tier ISs can be more flexible since usually there is a long wait list of students to be admitted, and the is doesnt need every fee paying family they can get, they can be selective. However, even these schools have an image to protect and when it comes to languages they will prefer a native speaker, and this includes English.