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A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:13 am
by kevin
Hi all,

I come from Northern Ireland and have been offered a place, both in my country, as well as in England, to train to become a licensed teacher, so I'm considering which one to choose. The curriculum in both countries is very similar with some minor differences; however, I was wondering, do people think that employers would view a PGCE done in England as more 'desired' than one done in Northern Ireland or would they view them as equal? I really ask this because maybe a British school might prefer someone more familiar with the English curriculum rather than the N.Ireland one (however, as I say, at the end of the day they are pretty similar).

I can get a big grant to do it in England, but would prefer to do it in Northern Ireland even though there is no big grant so am trying to look at the pros and cons of doing it in my country in order to decide. In short, I wonder would doing it in both countries have same "value" for teaching in an international school?


Thanks a lot in advance,
Kevin

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 5:11 pm
by shadowjack
When I taught in Kent, my school hired a fair number of teachers from Northern Ireland, so it can't be that bad.

My advice would be to do it where it will cost you the least money and incur you the least debt.

Some schools would like being able to add another country to the staff's 'home country' list!

shad

Response

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 5:43 am
by PsyGuy
What is your goal? What is your teaching field?

If you want to remain to teach in N.I. than being trained in N.I. would be preferred. Otherwise England is your better option under most scenarios.
You are going to want full QTS and the job market in England is much larger, and has a stronger demand which would provide more opportunities to undergo induction and obtain QTS. You can be very marketable at lower tier ISs with just a PGCE but the upper tier British ISs are going to want you to have a PGCE and QTS to be competitive.

I would not lightly dismiss the financial benefits being offered for the England pathway.

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:58 am
by kevin
Thanks a lot for the replies.

It would be teaching Spanish, with French to a lower level.

In Northern Ireland (NI) there is no shortage of state school teachers, whereas in England there is a major shortage, so that's probably why Shadowjack. In NI, it's said to be verging on the impossible if you're a newly qualified teacher to find work there.

Anyway, my plan is something like this: get the PGCE along with QTS, either in NI or England (I have already checked that QTS is definitely included in both courses), then leave immediately for Asia (I have zero desire to stick around UK after my PGCE and work a few years) and either find work in an international school or teach English. However, as I won't stick around in UK I don't think I could get a good job in an international school. I imagine they require people with at least 2 years+ post PGCE experience in their home country and frankly I don't want to do that (I'm knocking on a bit and want to try out Asia, find a wife and so on).

Furthermore, I don't think there would be that many openings for Spanish, if we compare it to subjects like Maths, Science and so on (right?). My main motivation for the PGCE is to use it indirectly and get a job in a programme called HK NET (teaching in state schools in Hong Kong). This is a very competitive job and being a licensed teacher gives you a better chance of being chosen. But, of course if I could get a decent international school job why not? I am just being realistic that for decent international school jobs they probably want to see a good few years of home country experience (as I say I'm not prepared to do that). With the financial support it means being able to get licensed for free if anyone's wondering why I'm going to this bother of getting something I might not even use directly.

Essentially, I don't mind if I don't end up in an international school but just wondered in case I did apply for one and realise having done it in NI was seen as not as "good" as say England due to the slight curriculum difference.

Oh regarding the money, you'd probably be surprised how high the financial support in England is (almost like a salary), so if I did it in England I'd not have a single debt. In NI, although the actual PGCE fee is a lot cheaper and covered by a grant, there is no extra financial support like England for living costs, however, I'd live at home in NI so those costs would be limited in the main to transport, which over 10 months won't be that much so I have savings to cover that easily.

Reply

Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 7:53 pm
by PsyGuy
@kevin

The QTS you obtain with your PGCE makes you a NQT, it is not the same as the QTS you obtain after completing induction. You really want to complete induction when your going into a competitive region such as HK. Pursing the England route would allow you a better opportunity to find a placement in England. England also allows you to complete induction at a British overseas school (assuming the IS has had a satisfactory Ofsted inspection within 4 years). Pursuing your PGCE in England will provide you more options.

HK is competitive very few Entry class ITs get appointment offers for HK even fewer Intern class ITs. HK ISs can be selective they dont need to hire minimally experienced ITs.

There isnt a lot of demand for Spanish as a FL, French has the highest demand and you have both. If an IS in HK needs a FL IT though, then that position is in demand to that IS. There isnt a lot of utility in comparing any subject field to maths or had science, those are the two most in demand subject fields.

In response to inquiry, there is no significant difference in status or professional quality between a NI PGCE or an English PGCE. The only issue will be with a recruiter/head who has an ego or preference for an English PGCE, but those differences are matters of perception not substance.

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:56 am
by kevin
Thanks for the advice PsyGuy, it’s appreciated!

I'm a bit confused about this QTS thing. So, it's almost like a second QTS in the induction year that confirms you really have QTS? Something like that?

I did see that before about doing your NQT year in a British school overseas, which really appeals to me as an alternative to the induction year in the UK(someone who did their PGCE in NI would still technically apply for this though I’d imagine), but as I see it there are 2 problems: finding a school registered with COBIS to officially offer NQT induction year

1 That actually has Spanish on the curriculum (my French isn’t strong enough as lead subject and on top of that I don’t really have enough passion for this language). Thus you'd have to go through all those on the official list (there are about 35 at present and only about a dozen that interest me) and deduct all that don't offer Spanish on their curriculum which probably reduces it drastically.

2 That has an open position for said subject

But, maybe if I got lucky, that would definitely be something I would be interested in doing. My point in comparing FL with maths etc is that in general my chances of International schools aren’t really THAT high, thus my thinking is just to get licensed as a springboard to other things.

I totally agree with you that I should complete the NQT 1st year in England, but I’m really doing the PGCE itself at a push and really don’t want to stick around, thus the above option of NQT abroad, if incredibly lucky would be the best alternative. Or another option is maybe return to the UK in a few years to do it. Maybe I sound stubborn, haha, but I just don’t feel like staying in the UK another year to do an induction year.

Reply

Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 7:15 am
by PsyGuy
@kevin

When you complete a PGCE your Uni is stating that you have met the academic requirements and standards of an educator. With the PGCE you obtain QTS as an NQT (Newly Qualified Teacher). You can not be appointed/work in a relevant maintained (regulated) school without completing induction. When you complete induction you get another QTS certificate that indicates you have completed induction. The two are referred to as "NQTs" and "QTS", even though the NQT has QTS, the distinction indicates those who have and have not completed an induction teaching year.
Induction is similar to a probationary appointment. The induction process consists of monitoring and mentoring a NQT and ultimately assessing them against the "Teacher Standards" of their professional practice in the classroom. These are the same teacher standards every teacher regardless of experience is assessed against. The primary concern/issue is that you much be successful in your first year of teaching, because you can only attempt induction once. After that you will only maintain your NQT QTS and not be eligible for employment in a relevant maintained/regulated school.

England would require you to obtain QTS and undergo induction as a NI trained teacher. However you would not have the benefit of NQT QTS if you completed your ITT in NI. The 2012 guidelines that permit QTS to be obtained at a British overseas school do not explicitly prohibit an NI trained teacher from pursuing QTS, they also dont explicitly authorize it. If such a school was so inclined however its likely they could make it happen. It would be far easier obtaining a placement for induction after completing your PGCE, less so if you return ata later time.

British overseas schools are inspected by Ofsted and their are 8 agencies that conduct those inspections , COBIS is just one organizational entity.

You will find it very difficult to find a single subject Spanish appointment, youd need a very large IS to make it a full load, since its an elective, and offering it doesnt mean your going to fill a full course load. Adding a second language really is going to vastly increase your marketability.

I understand what your goal is, you want a credential and a NI PGCE fills that need on your resume. You can get it very cheaply in NI and thats where you prefer to get it. Your goal is going to HK and PGCE or not an IS appointment is a long shot. The HK.NET program isnt going to make a distinction between NQT/QTS, etc.

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:20 pm
by kevin
Hi Psyguy,

I already have a second language to offer - French, my point was just that this could not be my main language due to my current level. So, it would have to be Spanish as the main language (with French at a lower level).

I guess I might just end up getting the PGCE and doing TEFL right after, considering that’s what I have experience in and have an MA in TESOL. I totally understand it’s harder getting your induction year if you leave it. But, I mean I could always at least come back 2-3 years later and complete it.

To be honest, I’d be more than happy getting into the HK NET programme. English is my native language and deep down I don’t want to teach Spanish/French it was just to get more qualifications and thought well maybe if I got a decent IS job teaching Spanish/French, why not. But, I see from what you say without completing induction year it’s not likely to happen.

Curiously, doing the PGCE in NI would cost me MORE money! I am eligible for a bursary in England that would comfortably cover fees/accommodation/travel/food, whereas in NI although fees are less and I’d be living at home I’d have to dip into my savings for transport/general fees. Ultimately, I think it’s best doing it in England for several reasons and for what you mention.

>>>> The HK.NET program isnt going to make a distinction between NQT/QTS, etc.

Do you mean here, they won’t make a difference between me having a PGCE but not having completed the induction year? I know for their programme your salary stops on the scale after a few times if you don't have a PGCE.


Thanks again for the advice,
Kevin

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 7:24 pm
by Sherhazade
Can I inquire of others if being a non-native speaker of a second language will be a barrier to the poster? Would international schools be more likely to go ahead an hire a Spanish speaking person for these hypothetical roles?

Reply

Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:17 am
by PsyGuy
@kevin

My impression is you werent very comfortable with teaching French, you could always build your fluency in the language if you were inclined to improve the marketability.

I would suggest focusing your attention on ESOL, you can pursue a PGCE with a focus in ELL as well as you can in Spanish/French, an their is a lot more demand in HK fat ISs and independent schools that have a concentrated host nationals or other non native English speaking student population.
A PGCE isnt unique to a particular subject area, your degree demonstrates content mastery in a field. A PGCE is the core meds/peds of providing professional instruction. The principals within a PGCE are going to be applicable to a wide field of audiences in varied classroom environments.

You could always do your induction later, there isnt a timeline and you may well find a British overseas school to do it at. It isnt a now or never issue.

You could easily find a HK or Asian wife in London, not as easy as HK, but it is London one of the top 5 global cities in the world.

Yes, the HK.NET program isnt going to make a distinction between an NQT and QTS, they are going to see your PGCE and your NQT QTS certificate, induction isnt going to make a difference.

@Sherhazade

A barrier yes but not a significant one. ISs generally hire host nationals for the native language program. In regards to FLs upper tier ISs can be selective and obtain fluent/near native bilingual or multilingual ITs. Many lower and mid tier ISs have issues recruiting that caliber of ITs who are also native English speakers. Most of them have to select from FL degreed ITs, and obtained a conventional qualification.

In Spain an upper tier IS is going to pursue a candidate who is a native Castilian Spanish speaker, who is also fluent in English. Lower tier ISs are going to have to make sacrifices in one or the other. Most will settle for a native English speaker with a conventional degree and qualification in Modern Language - Spanish.

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:49 am
by kevin
Sorry, yes, I would ‘prefer’ not having to teach French, but I will teach it in September and I think my level is better than some of the PGCE trainees' level in their 2nd FL. I realise it increases your marketability offering the 2. But, if I could also get involved in EAL during the PGCE I’d really like that.

Thanks, maybe I can find a HK/Asian wife in London, haha, then who knows, I could end up doing the induction year in the UK. Curiously for the HK NET programme if you marry a HK native you lose out on housing allowance which is pretty substantial at 1,500 GBP or thereabouts!

>>>>an their is a lot more demand in HK fat ISs and independent schools that have a concentrated host nationals or other non native English speaking student population.

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here. Are there private schools where you could teach English in HK? Online all I see are jobs for teaching kids there so wondered.

Reply

Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:18 am
by PsyGuy
@kevin

You can focus on any area during your PGCE, including ESOL.

A 1500£ marriage/wife tax. Thats pricey, thats really pricey. Its one thing if your wife choose to continue working, but if she wanted to do the stay at home wifey and/or mom thing thats a significant sacrifice. At that rate you could literally and directly "pay for it" and still be financially ahead. HK girls are tokyo girls but they do look the part. Might just be better off living together and having a commitment ceremony.

HK has a lot of independent schools and ISs that are predominately host nationals or serve non English speaking students. They all hire ESOL teachers, some hire them as language instructors, some hire them as class teachers. The hardest part about working in HK, is getting there and getting in to begin with. Once your there you have a lot of opportunities, because those local independent schools only advertise locally and its a local hire package. The SA HK fair is little more than a HK swap meet amongst the teachers and schools in HK.

Re: A PGCE in England or Northern Ireland?

Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:04 pm
by kevin
>>>You can focus on any area during your PGCE, including ESOL.

Yeah, but people keep talking about how stressed and busy you are during the PGCE, so I wonder if I'd have much time for doing that much. I was interested in doing the PGDE in English language teaching in Hong Kong University but it would have cost a bomb there.

Yep, haha, "a wife tax" of 1,500 per month. She better be worth it! But, yeah, probably better just living together at least for sometime.

Thanks for the opinion about the independent schools. So, I guess once you're in (somehow) as you say you have many opportunities. I did register on HK NESTA which seems to be a kind of networking organisation but only have access to their "guest forum".

Reply

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 3:44 am
by PsyGuy
@kevin

Its a lot of work and stress because the closest those in a PGCE have ever gotten to teaching is giving a class presentation. You have a degree in TESOL, the vast majority of the material is going to be remedial for you. Youre going to find yourself being bored a lot.