1st timer -Asia

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D_M_Lizzy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 8:14 pm

1st timer -Asia

Post by D_M_Lizzy »

Hello

I am an Australian teacher looking to work at an international school in Asia. I am a bit confused about the tiers of schools that others refer to in the forum. Are these an official ranking system or personal opinion? Are they about the quality of education students receive or the quality of the workplace for a teacher?

As a first time applicant for an overseas posting, am I likely to get a look in at a great/excellent school or do I need to start at the bottom? To help you answer that -I have 14 years teaching experience, secondary English and Drama plus someHistory and Visual Arts, MYP experience, taught in both co-ed and all girls', pastoral care experience eg: year co-or donator and head of house, almost finished my masters.

I think I am most interested in Singapore, but also Thailaland, Malaysia or Japan. Would prefer city to rural. Any great schools that you could recommend to me? My only direct knowledge is of the Australian International Schools in Singapore and KL.

Thank you very much (and I know these are huge questions!),
Lizzy
Overhere
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:29 am

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by Overhere »

Some will formalize the Tiers and supply you with an extended post on what they believe separates different schools into said Tiers. Personally I believe the school that is best for you meets all your criteria, and not someone else's, which means a bit of investigation is needed.

As for where you start, apply to all the schools that have jobs you can fill and meet your criteria. Don't shy away from supposed Tier 1 schools because you never know what they are looking for and they might be looking for you.
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by sciteach »

There are a couple of things to consider when moving overseas, that is what schools are looking for and what you should be looking for. Apologies if I sound a bit direct with what I write below...

What You Have:

14 years experience. This is both a positive and a negative. It's a positive as good schools want teachers with experience. Negative as some schools who are not as established want younger teachers as they are cheaper to employ.

Secondary English / Drama: Unfortunately, this is one of the most common subjects to teach which means that competition for the available positions are harder to get than say Science or Math.

MYP Experience: This will help you get a job over many non-IB teachers, but DP is always preferable.

My suggestion would be to join Search Associates and go to the Melbourne Fair in January. I went to this fair earlier in the year and found it quite good for a mid sized fair. However - do contact schools earlier and try and get a job before Jan. If all goes well, you have a good chance of getting a job at this fair as you seem to have a bit of an advantage over many other teachers who attend this fair (MYP experience, flexibility in subjects, Masters etc).

For You....

I second looking for a school that suits your needs - not just a school based on reputation. Your chosen countries are also very popular on the international circuit which means that you will majorly limit possible job opportunities. Taiwan and Korea are also nice places to live.

Tier 1 schools are normally seen as the best schools in the region. They are seen as rigorous educationally but it's really more to do with paying well and having an admin which makes decisions which actually make sense. There is a lot of conjecture about who is a Tier 1 school and who is not. It really depends on the person you are speaking too. These schools tend to be not for profit.

Tier 2 schools. These schools are normally reasonably good but have something going against them. It might be location, it may be wage or it may be pollution. Tier 2 schools tend to be either non profit or are willing to spend some money for the benefit of the students. Many Tier 2 schools can be better than Tier 1 schools depending on the teacher.

Tier 3 schools. These schools are either for profit and/or cater almost exclusively for the local community. I've never worked for a for profit school, but my first school was a Tier 3 (now considered lower Tier 2) and I have positive and negative memories. Don't be scared off by teaching almost exclusively to local clientele, but others might have more to say about for profit schools.

At the moment, I've worked for Tier 1, Tier 3 and will be moving to a Tier 2 school (because of location) in the near future. I could have been employed at a Tier 1 school next year, but the opportunities offered by my new school met my needs better.

As such, do apply for jobs at Tier 1 schools but also focus on good Tier 2 or good Tier 3 (local student) schools. Many schools expect teachers to pay their dues on the international circuit to get into the best schools. However, I've seen good teachers never get into Tier 1 schools and new teachers get into Tier 1 schools. It really depends on what jobs are available next year.

Do note that schools start employing in November for June - August starts with most jobs being filled in Jan/Feb/March
JeremyIrons
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:30 am

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by JeremyIrons »

As far as I'm aware, there is no such thing as a tier 1, tier 2 or tier 3 school. These are just generic terms used by people to give some form of quantifiable classification to a school. You could be in a school that you think is a tier 1 school and someone else could see it as a tier 2 school.

You are much better off finding schools you are interested in/are advertising and asking around as well as looking at the package.

I work in a 'for-profit' school at the moment. I have no problems with it. If I need something, it's purchased and it's the polar opposite of a 'business environment'.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

Your 14 years experience is valuable, experience is the most valuable factor in determining an ITs marketability, however between 6-10 years the value of experience provides diminishing returns. 14 years is valuable but no more so than an IT with 10 years. You may be cheaper or expensive, fewer and fewer ISs use open and published pay scales, they will offer you what they think you are worth and what they believe you will accept. Leadership is seldom is ever disciplined by ownership for saving costs on staffing. I would however advise that being in Australia with 14 years experience and your resume (especially your TLRs) you are very likely going to take a significant pay hit.

Literature/Drama doesnt enjoy the same level of supply/demand dynamics as STEM subjects but when an IS needs a Lit./Drama IT then that vacancy becomes "in demand" the issue is going to be that you will be competing against a much larger pool of applicants. What is your production background, etc. those factors are going to be what increases the utility of your application.

IB experience is very valuable, Id argue its the single most viable factor in differentiating ITs.

I would not recommend the Melbourne fair, its a dump fair, and primarily for the local Australian teacher population. The rule is you go to the most selective fair you can get an invite too , and in your case that would be the BKK fair. I would however consider ISS over SA as your choice for a premium agency.

In that note do you have a whole bunch of kids, a non teaching spouse?

TIERS:

Tiers certainly exist. While its true that you should pursue ISs that match your needs and wants, the tier system is not a means of comparing an IS to your criteria, but a metric of comparison between ISs. You can be very happy or content at a third tier IS but it is still a third tier IS.

Tiers arent official but they are more or less formalized, as a profession weve been using the system for between 5-10 years. As a profession their is a lot of consensus on the top, middle and the bottom, where we disagree is the boundaries and the margins.

Japan is a "highly preferred" region, lots of people want to relocate there, and will do anything to do so. Singapore is one of the little tigers (along with HK, JP).

The tier system reflects IT/educator predictive experience, not quality of education.
There is a correlation between learning quality and outcomes and tiers, mainly that lower tier ISs reflect talk and chalk, drill and kill, rote memorization, and other "direct teach" meds/peds. Students are more or less pushed through the process with little regard for actual performance. A significant population of these students are successful in lower tier ISs because their parents are paying tuition, and thats it.
Upper tier ISs do produce considerable learning and growth outcomes, the issue is that these students are well resourced, and come from affluent backgrounds were education is valued, and were disruptions within the IS are minimized. In such cases it is questionable if the IS and the program it provides was a significant contributing factor to the students achievement, and with the inability to test alternative hypothesis, we dont know if the student would have been as successful in another learning environment.

Below you can find the PsyGuy Applicant Assessment System:

PsyGuy Applicant Scoring System:
1) 1 pt / 2 years Experience (Max 10 Years)
2) 1 pt - Advance Degree (Masters)
3) 1 pt - Cross Certified (Must be schedule-able)
4) 1 pt - Curriculum Experience (IB, AP, IGCSE)
5) 1pt - Logistical Hire (Single +.5 pt, Couple +1 pt)
6) .5 pt - Previous International School Experience (standard 2 year contract)
7) .5 pt - Leadership Experience/Role (+.25 HOD, +.5 Coordinator)
8) .5 pt - Extra Curricular (Must be schedule-able)
9) .25 pt - Special Populations (Must be qualified)
10) .25 pt - Special Skill Set (Must be documentable AND marketable)

IT CLASSES:
1) Entry level ITs have a score around 2
2) Career ITs have a score around 4
3) Professional ITs have a score around 6
4) Master ITs have a score around 8

My reactive response is that your competitive for a tier 1 IS. That means that many of the people int he room will have resumes with comparable marketability.

The following is the aforementioned extended treatise on the Tier System:

There is no objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list, and to that end even if there was no one would agree on it. Youd have some consensus with schools like WAB (Beijing), and ISB (Bangkok), but there would still be a lot of disagreement. As a community we tend to agree achieve consensus on the top and the bottom of the tiers. Our biggest disagreement is the margins in-between and the middle. Though if your on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school in mainland China...

There is no "definition" of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Its all subjective, There are several models generally applied to dividing of the tiers, the teacher model is:
Elite Tier: Top schools in the first tier usually 1-2 schools.
1st Tier: The top 5%
2nd Tier: 75%-95%
3rd Tier: Bottom 75%
Upper tier is typically the elite, first tier and some portion of the second tier. Lower tier is the third tier and some portion of the second tier.
In general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to

1) Compensation package
2) Work environment.

Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If your in Brazil, $30K is better then $28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "cash" on hand for salaries and benefits.

COMPENSATION:

Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:

1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Transportation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).

WORK ENVIRONMENT:

Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. It means something slightly different to everyone. But can include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):

1) Staff/Faculty/Parents:How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?

2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?

3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?

4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?

5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?

6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....

JOB SEARCH:

1st tier schools are typically non-profit private prepatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.

2nd tier schools are private private non-profits that act like for profits. They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.

3rd tier schools are for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.

Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)

Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of these schools are in the middle east or africa. There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hell a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The money, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that i see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...

Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border between tier 3 and tier 2 schools.

"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools, that represent the top school(s) in the region.

An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities.

For example; ISB (Bangkok) is typically seen as the elite school in Bangkok. ISB (Beijing) is usually tied with WAB (Western Academy of Beijing) in Beijing/China. SAS (Singapore American School) is seen as the elite school in Singapore. ASP (Paris) is the elite school is France. IS Frankfurt is usually (lot of debate on this) considered the Elite school in Germany. ASIJ is well thought of as the elite school in Japan.

Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most european schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in asia).

Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.

I guess thats 4 levels. Is there a lower level, some people throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.


MODELS
We first need to explore the four models of the tier system (which are the parent, owner, admin, and educator). Starting with the easiest is the parent model:

The Parent model, or "Prestige" model is a two tier system that can be described as the "wanted school" (upper tier) and the "waiting school". Parents have a school they want to get into (the wanted school), but for various reasons (no places, not enough pull, wrong organization sponsor, etc) can not get a place, so they then move to their next school down the continuum, until they secure a place for their child/children, this school is the "waiting school", they are waiting until the scenario changes and they either get their top wanted school or they move up the chain to a better school. This system is almost entirely based on the reputation/recognition/popularity/affiliation of the school. Westerners are going to aim for the appropriate embassy school, and then having to invest more and more research will identify additional schools as the need arises.

The Ownership, or "Point" model is based on determining standing and tier level based on a single "point" criterion, usually either compensation (they can buy their way into upper tiers, if they pay enough) or curriculum (were tier 1 is we have IB, etc). This allows school ownership to focus their resources on bettering a single criterion, allowing them to maximize their potential to whatever point they can afford. A lot of the "upper tier" schools in the ME employ this metric. This is often a result of ownership understanding business more than they understand education, but frustrated educators of all types when faced with numerous descriptors, many of which are simply unknown, can and do resort to this tier ranking metric to reduce frustration.

The Admin model or "Divisional" model (Ive also had is described at the Equality Continuum and Linear Equality models) divides the continuum of schools into equal divisions along a continuum. Rank order all the schools and institutions and if you want 3 tiers divide them into the bottom third, the middle third, and the upper third (if you want 4 tiers divide into quarters, and so on). There are two issues with this model. First, what admins love is that because the lower tier schools are so numerous, that any respectable "REAL" IS gets pushed into the first tier. Second, it artificially skews the top and the bottom, while compressing the middle.

The Educator, or "Curve" model (because it approximates the normal curve). takes those same schools on a normal curve and putts the upper 1stSD, lower 2ndSD and lower 3rdSD (Standard deviation, under the curve int his case) and classifies those as the 3rd tier, thats a lot of schools. It then places the upper 80-85 percentile too 95-98 percentile in the 2nd tier. With the remaining upper 5-2 percentile as the 1st tier (the elite school/s are a sup population of the first tier, and is just at or under the 100th percentile). What this means is that schools must truly demonstrate exceptional characteristics befitting the title of "International School", not simply a local, or municipal schools that are characterized as average or slightingly better than average compared to the surrounding market.

Admins hate this model, or as they call it the "depressing, why bother trying model", because the elite schools like palaces of kingdoms of old are very well established and unless your in a region (such as Japan) you often dont have room for more than one palace, and its not likely going anywhere. Meaning that a school and ownership has to do a massive amount of work, and expend tremendous resources to compete with other ISs to get into that very small percentage (top 5% at best) to be considered 1st tier, because the range doesnt change, you have to beat another school out such that their ranking falls so your schools ranking can gain. This leaves the practical outcome that most new schools or re branded schools will expend considerable effort and resources just to get into tier 2, and thats how it should be, because competition is good for the market and the consumer. This isnt some warm fuzzy, and cuddly everyone can get an "A", no this is more like medical school or low school where no matter what you do or how well you do it, there is a forced ordinal ranking from bottom to top. An admin can think their performing at the 90 percentile but if everyone else is at 92% or higher, your still in the bottom, and the bottom is the third tier.
JeremyIrons
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:30 am

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by JeremyIrons »

"Tiers certainly exist....they aren't official"

Seems like a bit of a contradiction. I'd only agree that tiers genuinely existed if they were decided by an officially agreed body against a set of criteria and examined by this body regularly.
vandsmith
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:16 am

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by vandsmith »

is there such a thing as an "officially bad school"?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@JeremyIrons

What about Yelp reviews? They arent official, yet they exist. What about JD Powers reviews and rankings of the best car for a specific purpose? What about when Cosmo ranks the hottest guys, or Maximum ranks the hottest woman, are those "offical"? US News rates tertiary institutions every year, they are a magazine, does that make their rankings "official"?
Is ISR and this forum any more or less official than those publishers and venues?
Regardless of credibility of any of those rating or ranking systems, they still exist, whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them, is another issue.

What agency or organization would rank by tier ISs, I agree with Vandsmith there are no "bad ISs" from the admin and IS perspective. Thats why CIS exists to validate that each IS is special in its own way and is as special as they claim to be.
D_M_Lizzy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 8:14 pm

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by D_M_Lizzy »

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my questions and reply.

sciteach, not direct at all - very helpful and honest!

PsyGuy, thank you for your detailed response.
JeremyIrons
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:30 am

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by JeremyIrons »

Yelp is a good resource for reviews, but we certainly wouldn't award a hotel 5* status based on its Yelp reviews in the same way as a bunch of people saying a school is good doesn't give it a tier 1 status.

The reason these tier statuses should be taken with a pinch of salt is they are given by people who have haven't been in all schools and judged all schools carefully against a set list of quantifiable criteria. It's the equivalent of me saying a Toyota is a tier 2 car despite only ever having driven 4 brands of car. It's all relative and not even nearly scientific enough to be a good indicator of school quality.
joanveronica
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:14 pm

Re: 1st timer -Asia

Post by joanveronica »

@PsyGuy,
Why do you suggest OP join ISS over Search? What makes ISS better?
Thanks!
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@JeremyIrons

I have not observed any claims that the tier system is scientific, not that it is objective. Neither of those issues limit its utility, as long as the reader understands the assumptions under which they are made.. Even "science" has limitations the best laboratory experiments can not prove anything, at most they can do is disprove a claim.
The idea that only scientists and researchers can produce data that is useful is disingenuous, many conclusion=ions and decisions are based with little more than point samples, and anecdotal data.

@joanveronica

When you compare experiences of the two premium agencies Search (SA) focuses on a general audience, it tries to capture everyone (that it wants), and be something to everyone. Its not unlike Walmart, Trustmart, Daiso, or Carrefour. In general with SA your going to get an "average" amount of attention and support thats somewhere in the middle. That average means there is a sub-population that gets less and a sub-population that gets more.

ISS is more a boutique. Attention and support experiences fall on the polar extremes, you either get ignored with ISS or you get a lot of attention and support. ISS focuses its resources on "earners", those candidates that have a high demand and marketability so that they can place more clients in a shorter amount of time and with fewer/smaller recruiting events.

The LW in this case is marketable to a tier 1 IS, yes their subject area is theater but with their resume if an IS is recruiting for a theater/drama teacher, this is the kind of candidate thats going to be on the short list. Thats the kind of marketability that ISS would be very supportive and attentive too.
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