Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Cangguru
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:32 am

Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Cangguru »

Hey guys, wondering if you can shed some light. Apparently the visa processing authorities in China are now requiring applicants for a Z visa to have a the medical check for the visa done overseas, before they come to China and even before the visa invitation letter is issued. The problem with this is that the English part of the form that needs to be filled out makes nearly no sense.

Have any of you gone through this? If so, how did you explain to the doctor what to do? How will a doctor know what to fill in for a box that just says "spine" or one that asks if I have "plague?"

On a side note, I have heard that the option of entering mainland China on a tourist visa and then going to HK to process the Z visa is not allowed as of March(ish) this year. True?
sciteach
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:49 am

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by sciteach »

I had this filled out earlier this year as well. The doctor just states that it's not present or it's ok. There is not too much to it. Where I got my medical (not home country) has had these visa forms a few times so you'll probably find that the doctor may have filled it out more than once.

Apologies, I can't comment on the tourist visa via HK.
Last edited by sciteach on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mr DepTrai

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Mr DepTrai »

For things like "spine" just have doctor put "ok" or a check mark and for things like "plague" just ask doc to put "none"

Then in comments section ask to put "no medical issues present"
Cangguru
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:32 am

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Cangguru »

Incredibly helpful. Thanks! Is this what both of you guys have done?

Last question, what to put for the section that says "nest?"

(Funny but real)
eion_padraig
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by eion_padraig »

I don't remember the "nest" one. Really, they're most concerned that you don't have HIV or tuberculosis.

Be aware that you'll probably have to get some things re-tested when you arrive in China even with the completed form. Your employer should take you and all the other new teachers for a check up, which as I recall includes a blood test, urine sample, general physical examination. This wasn't required for visa renewals though.

I don't know specifically about the tourist and HK visa thing. In general, there has been a tightening up of visas over time. If you work for a school which does things correctly, it's all pretty easy. You really should have a Z visa upon entry. Then there is a process where they apply for a residency permit, which they put in your passport like a visa. This allows you to enter and exit the country.
Mr DepTrai

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Mr DepTrai »

Honestly,

I filled out the last form myself. I knew they were going to recheck me again in china so why waste the money?
PsyGuy
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Location: Northern Europe

Response

Post by PsyGuy »

I concur with the previous contributors, mark "ok" in the box or "no" with a note "no medical issues present".

'Nest' refers to fertility.

I fully endorse @DepTrai post though. You are going to do everything all over again when you arrive, including blood and urine lab work for STDs (HIV particularly) and a chest radiology (xray) for TB. It will also include going through a gauntlet of rooms and individuals having everything else checked again. Why go though the effort and resources to complete an exam that no one will ever verify (and no medical office would release any such information). Just fill it out yourself and have a friend sign it (Gregory House, M.D. is my favorite).

The visa issue was always the same, what differed was the level enforcement. Some ISs have good relationships with the PSB or Immigration Bureau, and some ISs dont and have to use formal channels. Other ISs would go ona visa run to HK or would route the flight with a long layover in HK.
Follow whatever instructions your IS provides and requires, regardless of how silly they sound. As long as you follow directions whatever happens will not be your fault. Not following directions means anything that goes wrong is your fault. Be wary though that while it typically works out arriving in China on a L tourist visa could be problematic and comes with risks.
Cangguru
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:32 am

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Cangguru »

Thanks for all of the answers guys! You've really clarified things and put them in perspective :)

My school is asking for the medical form, and has specified that the main thing is for it to have a doctor's stamp, so I may just explain the whole thing to my family doctor and see what he can do. Of course, filling it in myself sounds nice and easy but I'm not sure that is how I want to start my relationship with a new school.

The school has not suggested that I come in on a tourist visa. I am just having some issues with visa processing timelines, in terms of getting the required documents together, so am considering what backup options I might have.

Thanks again to everyone. These kinds of helpful threads are really what make this forum great.
Mr DepTrai

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Mr DepTrai »

If the school is having you come in on a tourist visa, then convert it...I would not be willing to bet that you filling out their form is the worst of their troubles.

Doing it that way is the "shady" way and not the proper way of entering China to work. Like I said, fill it out yourself or not. Ultimately is your choice and money. But be aware, I have not known anyone to do "stamps" back home, beyond official government docs. It seems that in China everyone one has a "chop", even the guys selling JinBing on the streets.
mp321
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:33 pm

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by mp321 »

I've been in charge of recruiting American teachers for my school for about 5 years now so I'm pretty familiar with the visa application process. In the past (before 2010) teachers could come on a tourist visa and do the Hong Kong visa run without too much trouble. Since 2010, though, there has been a tightening up (as others have mentioned). A school asking you to come on a tourist visa is a MAJOR red flag. You're taking a pretty big chance if you do this. Chances are the school is not legally allowed to hire foreigners. Perhaps the school has various alternative methods for getting visas (a student visa or the sketchy "business" visa, for example). Schools in smaller provinces have a harder time finding foreigners willing to go there, so their local foreign expert bureau tends to be more liberal with issuing work permits. That means that if a school in, say, Shanghai can't legally hire foreigners, they might ask them to come over on a tourist visa, then send them to Hong Kong with paperwork from some random school in, say Gansu province. If it works out, great. If not, the teacher goers back home and it's not skin off their backs. This also gives the school a month to "test out" the foreign teacher. If the authorities find out you're legally employed to work in Gansu province but working in Shanghai, there is a chance you could be deported and will have a tough time getting back to China.

Let's give the school the benefit of the doubt and assume they ARE legally allowed to hire foreigners. Tourist visas are quick and easy to get, but Z-visas take months. Perhaps they have an immediate need and they can't wait for the Z-visa. Then you have to ask yourself why this school has such an immediate need. Good schools will generally not have teachers randomly quitting and they'll understand that with policies changing all the time in China, they should make hires with plenty of time in advance.

Bottom line, the school doesn't have your best interests in mind when they ask you to come on a tourist visa. I've never heard of a reputable school doing it this way. There are plenty of schools who will help you get a Z-visa BEFORE coming to China.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@Cangguru

I can understand your position, if your medical exam is going to be inexpensive/covered by insurance and its going to take a minimal amount of time than just do that. You should be aware thata "doctors stamp" is just that an ink stamp. You can have made at an office supply store for less than $10 and consists of little more than the caduceus emblem (the twin snakes around a staff with eagles wings on top) and some lettering around the rim such as "Etsy Medical Group", or "Gregory House M.D.", or "Medical Office" and maybe "Do No Harm" (primum non nocere). You could just download an image using Google if you wanted to (after being "photocopied" it would look no different).

If the IS hasnt "suggested" you arrive on a tourist visa, but you are having visa timeline issues how do they feel the issue is going to be resolved. You need to contact them and get a declaration on how they want you to proceed. My experience has been that when pressed for a solution they either get it done properly or they default to the tourist visa entry. Those are the only two viable options, either they follow the correct procedure, or they dont. The issue becomes what do you do.

I agree up to a pint with mp321s ana1ysis, immigration enforcement has been in general getting stricter, but much of it depends on your regional location. Its convenient to look at PEK, SHA, and GZ where the majority of ISs are, as a measure of the immigration situation in China, but there are a lot of cities were very little has changed in decades.

If an IS cant recruit foreigners, than they have far bigger problems of critical scale, that wont and cant be resolved by going to HK or any other venue to get a work permit/foreign expert license/work visa. The options for these ISs are to either employ you illegally on a tourist visa (which means you dont need a medical exam) or employ you on a business visa as a "consultant" which only looks less illegal.

The locust of the issue is relationships and how networking "guanxi" works in China. A small rural IS may have a great relationship with their local PSB, so how it could legitimately use the tourist pathway. Their are two (actually 4, but only two matter) different processes at issue, one process involves getting a work permit/foreign experts license issued from the PSB (that and an invitation letter from the IS, is what you use to apply for your visa at your local consulate embassy) that process and system has a lot of security checks involved with it. The other process is the system used for issuance, extensions and renewals, changes, etc and because its more generalized (and a bigger database) it is an "easier" system to work with and has less scrutiny and oversight (the least of which is that it doesnt require an overseas embassies office staff to evaluate/adjudicate anything). So the IS has a member of its office staff that has cultivated a relationship with an officer/inspector in the immigration branch of the local PSB, and that individual goes in with a stack of passports, makes some small talk, and brings a "gift" for the inspectors child or spouses celebration of some special event, and then the visas get "done". This makes it a small, local administrative function of an out of the way government office. This is the two differences, in that there are fewer "hands" involved with the process. You have the passports immediately available for processing, and only the local PSB administration is involved.

In general principal however, if a school can get visas it can get work permits. Time is not really an issue, its the same desk that processes work permits that processes visas, if an IS can get a visa issued quickly it can get a work permit issued just as quickly. The time element is not a function of temporal restrictions or limitations but a factor of the "relationship" and the social currency used for each transaction, each visit to the PSB for a request is really a "favor" or an exchange of social currency to facilitate the request. It costs less if you can take care of all those requests at one time, and the optimal time to do all of that at once is the start of the academic term when you have all the staff you are going to have. Many of the legitimate ISs dont need as much social currency because they have status that facilitates the processing of their visa/permit/license applications, they might expend some of that social currency to speed up the process, but its going to get done.
After the permit is issued its a few days to DHL/EMS the documents and then a week to process the visa at the embassy plus the post time between the embassy (which you can do overnight), and is no different a time frame when applying for a tourist visa. The only difference becoming the permit processing time and posting time from China, which if an IS was motivated to do so could do in a week (2 days for the permit and letter, and then 5 days for post). If an IS needs someone that fast a local hire is a more viable option.

There are still serious issues to consider, in that as mp321 wrote, working on a tourist visa while they are "processing" your work visa/permit/license is a shadow probationary period. If the IS wants to rescind the contract there is little (almost nothing) you can do about it, youre working illegally and while you could make an issue of it, very few ITs would risk the legal ramifications for a month or two in salary, considering you dont have income or resources. The majority of ITs would just leave or have an exit plan with working alternatives.

The probability of legal issues with working in a different school are almost zero. There are two documents your visa/ and your permit/license. The visa allows you to reside in country and be employed, the permit/license allows you to actually work for a specific employer, changing a permit/license for one with a valid visa is very easy. The scenario where it would be a problem is if a new employer does not apply for the change to the permit/license.

What I firmly agree with mp321 on is that any IS that requests or requires you enter on a tourist or visa other than Z, has some issues that are problematic and of concern to you. they may not have your best interests or they have operational issues.
I would temper that with the knowledge that in the vast majority of the cases whatever the issues and causes are they work out. even if it is a shadow probationary period, if youre in anyway a competent IT (meaning you have a pulse) the ISs standards and expectations are so low, they will be lucky and happy to have you. If the IS does dissolve in a pool of poo under bad ownership and management, you will at least already be in country, can add the experience to your resume, and hopefully have already been compensated reimbursed your OSH/relocation benefits, then you can move on to a new position in a marketable position.
Mr DepTrai

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by Mr DepTrai »

I disagree with what this guy says....A work permit is NOT issued as quickly as a tourist visa. There are lots of red tape they have to precess with their business being cleared to hire workers. If you believe this guy, Im sorry, please ignore everything I write and enjoy your short lived career as a reputable teacher.
PsyGuy
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Mr DepTrai

It most certainly can, its a data input screen that access a IT database, and connects to a printer using security paper, and a chop that the inspector places on the permit. Its 3-5 minutes of work depending on the typing speed of the user.
That "red tape" is an illusion of political and social efficacy and motivation of the stake holders involved in the processing. Any clerk or officiant in any Chinese administrative office can chop a document in the 2-4 required instances in a matter of seconds, or they can stare at it in "review" while considering it for however long they feel the processing should take.
mp321
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:33 pm

Re: Medical check in home country for Chinese Z visa

Post by mp321 »

Psy_guy, just because this process CAN happen in 3-5 minutes doesn't mean that it's commonplace or that it ever happens. I've never seen it happen in less than the normal timeframe (a few weeks). It would probably take a pretty significant favor to make something like that happen, which doesn't make sense for the school unless they're bottom-of-the-barrel-desperate, in which case I can't see them having a particularly large amount of guanxi in the first place. (incidentally, I just found out that "guanxi" autocorrects to "guano" on my computer, which is a wonderfully accurate description of this practice)

Also, just want to clarify something regarding visas/work permits/etc. The school doesn't actually issue you a visa. They provide you with the paperwork (a work permit and an invitation letter) to get a Z-visa (employment visa) on your own at the embassy/consulate in your home country.



PsyGuy wrote:
> In general principal however, if a school can get visas it can get work permits.
> Time is not really an issue, its the same desk that processes work permits that
> processes visas, if an IS can get a visa issued quickly it can get a work permit
> issued just as quickly. The time element is not a function of temporal restrictions
> or limitations but a factor of the "relationship" and the social currency used for
> each transaction, each visit to the PSB for a request is really a "favor" or an
> exchange of social currency to facilitate the request. It costs less if you can
> take care of all those requests at one time, and the optimal time to do all of that
> at once is the start of the academic term when you have all the staff you are going
> to have. Many of the legitimate ISs dont need as much social currency because they
> have status that facilitates the processing of their visa/permit/license applications,
> they might expend some of that social currency to speed up the process, but its
> going to get done.
> After the permit is issued its a few days to DHL/EMS the documents and then a week
> to process the visa at the embassy plus the post time between the embassy (which
> you can do overnight), and is no different a time frame when applying for a tourist
> visa. The only difference becoming the permit processing time and posting time from
> China, which if an IS was motivated to do so could do in a week (2 days for the
> permit and letter, and then 5 days for post). If an IS needs someone that fast a
> local hire is a more viable option.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@mp321

Your experience does not make it untrue nor in error. Significant in regards to "guanxi" is highly subjective, the resources available to a business entity such as an IS are can be staggering compared to those of a lowly paid civil servant. Its not all that uncommon, despite your view on the practice its a primary characteristic of doing business in China.

Thats true ISs dont issue visas, those are a function of the immigration authority, as they are in every country.
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