Bangkok

Spawnboy99
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:14 pm

Bangkok

Post by Spawnboy99 »

Does anyboby have up to date with these three schools understand that they all do different Curriculum such as IB, IPC and British
Schools are NIST, ISB and St Stephen's.

Thanks
aussiechick
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:37 pm

Re: Bangkok

Post by aussiechick »

NIST does full IB, ISB mostly follows an American curriculum but has the IB Diploma as an option, and I've never heard of St Stephens.
Yantantether
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Re: Bangkok

Post by Yantantether »

ISB and NIST are both top tier schools. St. S is a very average 2nd Tier school for Bangkok.
I hope you had both hands tied behind your back when you typed that :-)
Spawnboy99
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Re: Bangkok

Post by Spawnboy99 »

Sorry can you explain in more detail please
PsyGuy
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Response

Post by PsyGuy »

ISB is an American WASC accredited school, that offers IB DIP and AP. They are the elite tier IS in Thailand.

NIST is a true IB world school (PYP-DIP). It is a high tier two IS.

St. S is a NEASC US accredited school but they offer a local curriculum that is mostly based on the British NC, though they are not accredited or inspected by Ofsted. Combined with the IPC and IMYC which is a cheap copy of IB. As a basically Thai school their curriculum framework is structured around the Thai educational ministry requirements. Students receive either an IGCSE and/or an equivalent Thai Diploma. They are a strong third tier IS.
Last edited by PsyGuy on Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
PIEGUY
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Re: Bangkok

Post by PIEGUY »

I like to consider money tiers:

1. ISB
2. NIST
3. St. Stephens.

NIST is in one of the most expensive parts of town, so factor that in.
Yantantether
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:41 am

Re: Response

Post by Yantantether »

PsyGuy wrote:
> ISB is an American WASC accredited school, that offers IB DIP and AP. They
> are the elite tier IS in Thailand.
>
> NIST is a true IB world school (PYP-DIP). It is a solid tier two IS.
>
> St. S is a NEASC US accredited school but they offer a local curriculum
> that is mostly based on the British NC, though they are not accredited or
> inspected by Ofsted. Combined with the IPC and IMYC which is a cheap copy
> of IB. As a basically Thai school their curriculum framework is structured
> around the Thai educational ministry requirements. Students receive either
> an IGCSE and/or an equivalent Thai Diploma. They are an upper third tier
> IS.

If NIST is considered only T2 by you, please list the other T1 schools in BKK. I'm very interested!
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Yantantether

The earlier version of your post was better. Responding to that I am not, nor have I ever been a moderator, admin, employee or in any way other than a community contributor a part of ISR.

I had to update my previous post as I had inversed the quantifiers, NIST is HIGH second tier IS and St.S is a SOLID third tier IS. My apologies for the confusion.

No there isnt one first tier IS, but thats not the issue with NIST. The compensation range for ISs (in baht) is 60K80K/100K (3rd/snd/1st tiers respectively). NIST just doesnt hit the mark for compensation. 1st tier schools have to hit all the marks, not just some of them, or most of them, and their are no free passes, exemptions, etc for being an "IB World School" etc. in a particular region.
Yantantether
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:41 am

Re: Bangkok

Post by Yantantether »

Anyone who knows anything about Bangkok knows that NIST is considered second only to ISB on reputation and benefits. They pay WAY over the 100 000bht you quote. St. S will also be around or over your 80 000 quote. So, as I said : NIST T1 and St S T2.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Yantantether

No its not, Patana Pattaya is second (actually they can argue who the elite school is). No NIST pays just under 100K, and in regards to St.S its not solely about the salary. To reiterate NIST is tier 2 and St.S is tier 3.

UPDATE: Due to an editing error (curses auto correct) an earlier version of this post incorrectly identified Pattaya IS in place of Patana
Last edited by PsyGuy on Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ddd
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Re: Bangkok

Post by Ddd »

Top schools in Bkk:
ISB, NIST, Patana, Harrow, Shrewsbury. They are all top schools, even though ISB might pay more than the others. All pay far more than 100 K ThB, plus excellent benefits. St Stephens definitely lower league.

Regents Pattaya nowhere near these schools.
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Ddd

We disagree on lists. Harrow and Shrewsbury are not top ISs, they are strong 2nd tier ISs with good marketing that have the advantage of an established reputation among a group/chain of schools.
Schmedz
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Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Bangkok

Post by Schmedz »

What's wrong with Regents Pattaya? I think their website looks really impressive and compares favourably to all the schools mentioned above (and actually is much more impressive than ISBs, not that websites are the best measure of a school!!) Patana, NIST and ISB have obviously been established for longer than the others but apart from that, just wondering about the whole way that people decide which 'tier' a school is...
Reading reviews by staff on ISR, they are quite mixed about all of these schools!
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Schmedz

TIERS:
There is no objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list, and to that end even if there was no one would agree on it. Youd have some consensus with schools like WAB (Beijing), and ISB (Bangkok), but there would still be a lot of disagreement. As a community we tend to agree achieve consensus on the top and the bottom of the tiers. Our biggest disagreement is the margins in-between and the middle. Though if your on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school in mainland China...

There is no "definition" of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Its all subjective, There are several models generally applied to dividing of the tiers, the teacher model is:
Elite Tier: Top schools in the first tier usually 1-2 schools.
1st Tier: The top 5%
2nd Tier: 75%-95%
3rd Tier: Bottom 75%
Upper tier is typically the elite, first tier and some portion of the second tier. Lower tier is the third tier and some portion of the second tier.
In general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to

1) Compensation package
2) Work environment.

Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If your in Brazil, $30K is better then $28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "cash" on hand for salaries and benefits.

COMPENSATION:

Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:

1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Transportation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).

WORK ENVIRONMENT:

Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. It means something slightly different to everyone. But can include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):

1) Staff/Faculty/Parents:How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?

2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?

3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?

4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?

5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?

6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....

JOB SEARCH:

1st tier schools are typically non-profit private prepatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.

2nd tier schools are private private non-profits that act like for profits. They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.

3rd tier schools are for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.

Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)

Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of these schools are in the middle east or africa. There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hell a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The money, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that i see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...

Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border between tier 3 and tier 2 schools.

"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools, that represent the top school(s) in the region.

An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities.

For example; ISB (Bangkok) is typically seen as the elite school in Bangkok. ISB (Beijing) is usually tied with WAB (Western Academy of Beijing) in Beijing/China. SAS (Singapore American School) is seen as the elite school in Singapore. ASP (Paris) is the elite school is France. IS Frankfurt is usually (lot of debate on this) considered the Elite school in Germany. ASIJ is well thought of as the elite school in Japan.

Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most european schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in asia).

Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.

I guess thats 4 levels. is there a lower level, some people throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.


MODELS
We first need to explore the four models of the tier system (which are the parent, owner, admin, and educator). Starting with the easiest is the parent model:

The Parent model, or "Prestige" model is a two tier system that can be described as the "wanted school" (upper tier) and the "waiting school". Parents have a school they want to get into (the wanted school), but for various reasons (no places, not enough pull, wrong organization sponsor, etc) can not get a place, so they then move to their next school down the continuum, until they secure a place for their child/children, this school is the "waiting school", they are waiting until the scenario changes and they either get their top wanted school or they move up the chain to a better school. This system is almost entirely based on the reputation/recognition/popularity/affiliation of the school. Westerners are going to aim for the appropriate embassy school, and then having to invest more and more research will identify additional schools as the need arises.

The Ownership, or "Point" model is based on determining standing and tier level based on a single "point" criterion, usually either compensation (they can buy their way into upper tiers, if they pay enough) or curriculum (were tier 1 is we have IB, etc). This allows school ownership to focus their resources on bettering a single criterion, allowing them to maximize their potential to whatever point they can afford. A lot of the "upper tier" schools in the ME employ this metric. This is often a result of ownership understanding business more than they understand education, but frustrated educators of all types when faced with numerous descriptors, many of which are simply unknown, can and do resort to this tier ranking metric to reduce frustration.

The Admin model or "Divisional" model (Ive also had is described at the Equality Continuum and Linear Equality models) divides the continuum of schools into equal divisions along a continuum. Rank order all the schools and institutions and if you want 3 tiers divide them into the bottom third, the middle third, and the upper third (if you want 4 tiers divide into quarters, and so on). There are two issues with this model. First, what admins love is that because the lower tier schools are so numerous, that any respectable "REAL" IS gets pushed into the first tier. Second, it artificially skews the top and the bottom, while compressing the middle.

The Educator, or "Curve" model (because it approximates the normal curve). takes those same schools on a normal curve and putts the upper 1stSD, lower 2ndSD and lower 3rdSD (Standard deviation, under the curve int his case) and classifies those as the 3rd tier, thats a lot of schools. It then places the upper 80-85 percentile too 95-98 percentile in the 2nd tier. With the remaining upper 5-2 percentile as the 1st tier (the elite school/s are a sup population of the first tier, and is just at or under the 100th percentile). What this means is that schools must truly demonstrate exceptional characteristics befitting the title of "International School", not simply a local, or municipal schools that are characterized as average or slightingly better than average compared to the surrounding market.

Admins hate this model, or as they call it the "depressing, why bother trying model", because the elite schools like palaces of kingdoms of old are very well established and unless your in a region (such as Japan) you often dont have room for more than one palace, and its not likely going anywhere. Meaning that a school and ownership has to do a massive amount of work, and expend tremendous resources to compete with other ISs to get into that very small percentage (top 5% at best) to be considered 1st tier, because the range doesnt change, you have to beat another school out such that their ranking falls so your schools ranking can gain. This leaves the practical outcome that most new schools or re branded schools will expend considerable effort and resources just to get into tier 2, and thats how it should be, because competition is good for the market and the consumer. This isnt some warm fuzzy, and cuddly everyone can get an "A", no this is more like medical school or low school where no matter what you do or how well you do it, there is a forced ordinal ranking from bottom to top. An admin can think their performing at the 90 percentile but if everyone else is at 92% or higher, your still in the bottom, and the bottom is the third tier.
Schmedz
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Bangkok

Post by Schmedz »

Wow, thanks for that comprehensive reply. I suppose there is the subjective measurement of how much you as a teacher actually enjoy working there, too, and how happy you are with the education your children receive - in other words, not how selective a school is, but by how much the children are able to reach their potential and are encouraged and supported to improve. For me these are the top two priorities and the sign of a school which is interested in the teaching and learning. If I have accepted a post in a school that fulfils that criteria, I believe I have hit the jackpot, regardless of whatever Tier others may call it!
Having looked at some of the Elite type schools, they seem to be very intolerant of any student who might need some sort of learning support. They also seem to have HUGE student numbers. Both of these things, I personally find, really off putting.
Interesting you have classed all 'for profit' schools in the third tier category - is it really not possible to have a tier 1 or 2 school which is also 'for profit'.
Another interesting question is how much does historical reputation impact the classification? There are plenty of schools who might be said to rest on their laurels and others that are making real progress and providing a super education and opportunities to a broad and balanced student body, but are not as established time-wise.
I've not taught abroad before, so this is one of the interesting aspects of IE about which I am learning.
As a teacher and parent I was less than impressed by many of the schools that were at the one and only SA Fair that I went to. I am also unimpressed by schools that seem to be more of a US style education than 'International' (or British, thus my confusion over the appeal of ISB and why I declined to work there!) but I suppose it is different strokes for different folks. Glad that, as a teacher, I get to choose the (hopefully) best fit for my children and I rather than having to rely on the dreaded waiting list phenomena.
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