Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

vandsmith
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:16 am

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by vandsmith »

it would be interesting to see what canada would do should bantleman survive indonesian prison, and then be repatriated back to canada. in spite of the corrupt system in indonesia, and as psyguy has said, he has still been found guilty in a (kangaroo) court of law. his days working with kids could be over...

maybe there's a way bantleman can cast a spell on his prison guards and escape somehow? or perhaps claim that the director at JIS magically hypnotized him into action? the indonesian courts might actually entertain that one!

all i know is the canadian government put no pressure on the indonesian government whatsoever - i'm not even sure they ever even released a statement of support or anything. so i doubt that a canadian court would ever try to convict bantleman, but i'm not sure they could ignore the outcome of the case in any event.

v.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

I agree the trial says far more about the judicial process than deciding the actual criminal issues.

There is no "could" about it, his career is over. He has to answer "yes" to any application or question regarding "issues related too" and convictions of sex offenses with children. Even if there was a sympathetic admin who would give him a chance his names public knowledge, any Google search would bring up his convictions. Which means any parent or students or member of the communicant could easily find him.
His certification has been revoked and after his sentence is completed he will have a 10 year gap in his resume. He will get a lot of sympathy but no one who is sane will hire him.

Canada has only exercised extraterritorial jurisdiction a handful of times (somewhere around 6) in regards to overseas sex offenses. They will likely just cut a deal with him to register nationally if anything.
bestjob
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:07 am

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by bestjob »

I have read only a little of this - enough to see that Neil was in a floor-to-ceiling, glass-walled office, others were present, and that people around him, including his wife, say he and ?Ferdi (whose name seems to have been forgotten) cannot be guilty. As I have seen 1 questionable person in international education, and hundreds of lovely, dedicated educators, I side with Neil and Ferdi.

I wonder: if you believe these men are innocent, and you work for JIS or another international school in Indonesia, HOW can you stay? Everything is different when you are 'in it', but I like to think I would resign immediately, and get out of Indonesia. Hitting businesses in the pocket book is the only thing that they feel. In the case of powerful, entitled parents, having no school for their children to attend would be dramatic. If all international schools in Indonesia were FORCED to close, due to no staff, even for a month, it would wake someone up.

Too bad we cannot come together in a big, impacting way on these issues. Maybe we need an international teacher insurance fund.
seinfeld
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by seinfeld »

I have two contrasting opinions on all this.

Indonesian justice and the whole incident. Court process and reasons why Bantleman was "proven" guilty were just absurd. Saying that all the protests against the arrest were evidence of his guilt. Bloody hell...

On the other hand there is no way in hell I will take to social media to publicly link my name to a child sex abuse case like a lot of my colleagues and friends. If he in some bizarre turn of events turns out to be guilty...yowsa...you don't want that connection..
tangchao
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:16 pm

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by tangchao »

Well it seems like there are a lot of flaws in this case, but what about the five cleaners in this case? They seemed to get sentenced without a care in the world from the IT community.

How was it that they were convicted? Was their trial just as farcical?
IAMBOG
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:20 pm

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by IAMBOG »

Actually not true, if you look at the Bantleman Facebook groups there is money being raised for the cleaners and they are being supported. Singapore American School donated $3000 to the cleaners fund in the last few days (via JIS). They have not been forgotten. Perhaps in the bigger scheme of things, ITs working further afield think more of the teachers who are caught up in this. That's natural, we empathise more with those who are similar, but the cleaners and their families are being supported.
hallier
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:54 am

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by hallier »

Thx for that post IAMBOG - there has been a lot of support for the cleaners from the JIS Community, esp. from many of the parents. My understanding is that this is covering legal fees as well as supporting their families who have lost their source of income. Posters may be interested in this article - http://indonesiaexpat.biz/other/observa ... onviction/ - written by an ex-JIS teacher.
tangchao
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:16 pm

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by tangchao »

One question if I may. The blogpost from Chris Crutcher paints a picture of the early days of these events:

"In March of 2014 a parent came to school charging that her first grade child had been raped by cleaning staff in a bathroom close to his classroom. JIS administrators removed all cleaning staff under the ruse of training, then cooperated with police, which resulted in the arrest of two identified cleaners. There was sadness and shock among the entire JIS educational community, and great empathy was exhibited toward the child and Indonesian mother and Dutch father."

What happened with the original two cleaners there? It sounds like they might have been thrown under the bus at the outset so that JIS could protect itself. Is there any indication of any real guilt at all in the early days? Why did the cooperation with police result "in the arrest of two identified cleaners?"
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@bestjob

What else are you going to do? Most ITs in Indonesia are lifers to the region or the circuit. They have families and children to support and cant really leave, as long as its not you JIS offers the most coin. For those who are career ITs, Its April where are you going too go? Peak recruiting is over, its just leftovers and lower tier ISs now. You arent going to get a positive reference, and while admins would "understand", JIS still needs to staff its classrooms, and the HOS/admin community cant allow a precedent that would make whole scale abandonment of a contract acceptable. Many ISs exist in unstable or risky regions.

@tangchao

It was media and image control. JIS was minimizing damage, its one thing to have a local laborer with this type of criminal accusation, its another when its a expact member of the instructional staff. I dont really get the sense their is a lot of empathy for the laborers, as thats a "local issue" a teacher makes it an international issue, and its those international parents that pay tuition.

Theres a child claiming sexual misconduct, a local medical report/examination, and a mother with influence, thats about it as far as evidence goes.
Teachint
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:11 am

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by Teachint »

While the accusations could happen anywhere, in most countries if this case went to trial, it is unlikely they would be found guilty with absolutely no physical evidence and the defense case claiming that a magic stone was used to help carry out the abuse. This case unfortunately highlights the fact that the Indonesian justice system is one where the person with most influence and/or money wins. I have worked in Indonesia, firstly in a language school and years later in an international school. The language school I worked in nearly went bankrupt as one of the teachers, who was sacked with just cause, sued them for unfair dismissal. He had no evidence but his Indonesian girlfriend bribed the judge by sending a prostitute to his house the night before the trial so they won a substantial payout, a proportion of which was given to the judge as agreed beforehand. Corruption is endemic at every level. Doctors' testimony, driving licenses, degree certificates etc can all be bought from government officials for a suitable fee.
Neil, and his colleagues, have been found guilty with no real evidence while the mother is suing the school for 1.25 million. We can only hope that the appeal results in a fair trial, although with the lack of any real evidence this case should never have gone to trial in the first place.
PsyGuy
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Discussion

Post by PsyGuy »

@Teachint

There is evidence though, thee is a complaining victim (and if youve even seen the film Pans Labrinth, you can understand that young children can create fictions, such as a magic stone, as a defense mechanism for dealing with such horrible things done to them), there is also a local medical/hospital report, yes there is evidence to question the validity of that medical report, but many cases in western jurisprudence would result in conviction based on those two pieces of evidence alone.

I strongly believe at this time that an appellate court (likely the Supreme Court of Indonesia) will overturn the verdicts, depending on the outcome of the civil trial.
hallier
Posts: 159
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Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by hallier »

PsyGuy - I know you seem to be playing games here, but at least play fair.

You know that the medical report came from the police's own hospital, which hardly makes it independent. The other reports that you refer to were independent, including one that was certified by the High Court of SIngapore - a nation that does have rule of law. All of this has been stated in earlier posts that you read and critiqued.

Surely it would be fair and honest to state that the report that was accepted by the court came from the police hospital and was only made after the child was taken to three different facilities, including one in Singapore, that found no evidence of trauma to the victim?

Your rationale for the child citing the case of the 'magic stone' is an interesting one - however, I do wonder what the odds are of two different children both coming up with the same 'magic stone' explanation in reaction to their trauma - unless of course, they were coached and/or there was some sort of collusion.

There was a difference in their stories - child 1 said Neil produced the stone by clicking his fingers. He did this after the child refused to drink the blue liquid that the Principal (who was not charged) created using the blender. Child 2 said the stone was taken from the sky using an airplane.

Another problem with this rationale is that the 'stone' story was used by the prosecution to explain why those in the area of the alleged assaults did not hear the children crying etc when they were raped - the stone was used to deaden the pain, you see.

The different statements of the children are taken from police reports of the interviews that, in this country, are freely shared with the media.

One of the children also mentioned that the perpetrators had skull tattoos on their arms and back. This was not raised in the actual trial for obvious reasons - the accused do not have tattoos.

The only people who seem to be arguing that this evidence would secure a guilty verdict in a 'best practice' court of law seem to be posters on the Internet.

I would suggest that it is unlikely that the US Ambassador to Indonesia would agree, after he made this unusually (for a diplomat) strong statement:

“ ... Serious questions have arisen in this case regarding the investigative process and the lack of credible evidence against the teachers. In light of this, we are deeply disappointed by the outcome ... We look forward to the next step in the legal process in which we hope all the available facts in the case will be considered."

(http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015 ... spUhw.dpuf)

Perhaps I will close with an extract from the editorial in yesterday's Jakarta Post:

"If we want to show our seriousness in building a country of our own and persuading foreign investors to help, then we must guarantee them a stable business and political environment, underpinned by legal certainty.

Joko’s first six months have enabled laws and court verdicts so dubious as to cause investors concern. How can we expect to attract foreign firms to come and stay if we’re unable to ensure fairness and safety for their investments and their people?"

http://thejakartaglobe.beritasatu.com/o ... ing-first/
PsyGuy
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Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@hallier

Its no more a game for me then it is for you. You appear committed to the idea that they are innocent, its not really an ana1ysis for you, its an exercise in how to support your point of view.

Whats wrong with the police or governments own hospital? The other reports were not independent, they were paid for by the defense. First question a prosecutor asks "Doctor, are you being compensated for your testimony today? Did your medical facility collect a fee from the defense or the accused for performing the examination?"
Conflict and in-congruence between evidence does not make one of the evidentiary claims "go away". I say the apple is red, you say the apple is green, your claim is not superior because you deem it so. The High Court of Singapores "certification" does not carry wait or credence in Indonesia, no more than the opinion and findings of a Canadian court would be controlling in a British court.

I dont know what would be fair to claim, I am not in possession of the medical report nor am I in a position to examine its providence. Again, the Singapore medical examination was conducted at the expense of the defense, that would appear to be grounds for concerns of potential bias. The Singapore medical professionals could have erred, you cant claim with absolute certainty that they didnt.

I couldnt state what the probability of similar (not identical) testimony of the young children are. How do you know there wasnt an actual stone involved? Maybe the explanation is that there actually was one. Maybe the students, having both been victims of such horrible abuse talked about the incidents. Maybe they were abused together. The concept of a "stone" is hardly unique, its a common motif in many types of imagery.

The issue I have with your psycho-forensic ana1ysis, is that you are attempting to manifest properties of reality onto the constructs created in a young childs mind. These constructs do not have to make sense, they dont have to even make "nonsense" they are not an explanation, they are a mental defense mechanism, for which the purpose is not to give tangibility to theory, observations or events.

How the stone appeared, what it did, the tattoos none of those are relevant from the perspective that they are phantoms, conjurations of a young childs mind to cope with violent sexual assault.

The ambassadors statement is a poignant statement and remark of the Indonesian judicial system, it is not a declaration on the innocence or guilt of the accused.

Your media reports and claims are a red herring. It is for these arguments that sex tourism and predators thrive in Asian regions, as the countries involved must be seen and in practice of using a lite touch on westerners or it will doom/destroy business and the economy. Economic stability is not relevant nor is it an excuse or political grounds for tolerating or excusing such reprehensible behavior. The opinions and concerns of western and imperial "investors" is immaterial to the legal and social issues of this crime.

Since you have mentioned Singapore as fair and following the rule of law. In Singapore if you are in possession of controlled, abusive substances such as heroine or cocaine, you get executed. Doesnt matter if your Singaporean, Canadian, American, French, etc. Transport drugs through, into, out of Singapore you get a short drop and a sudden stop. There is no discretion its a mandatory death sentence.
Had this child sexual assault case occurred in Singapore, had Neil been found guilty, there would likely be nothing to debate anymore outside of academics as the accused would have very likely received execution and sentences are carried out in 5-7 days.

It is not just a crime, it is a conviction, Neil and his assistant teacher are no longer "accused, they have been found guilty and until such a time and place that their conviction is overturned on appeal. As of here and now they are child sex offenders, thats not a view, perception, opinion, or position, it is a fact.
auntiesocial
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Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by auntiesocial »

Psyguy

You are clearly not an expert in legal matters. I'll tell you who are; Amnesty international, Transparency International, Human Rights Watch and a whole host of other international and human rights lawyers who have resoundingly condemmed the legal process in this trail, as well as the legal system in Indonesia - this includes indonesian legal experts.

Nor by your previous post do you demonstrate any understanding of the phrase "rule of law". This phrase relates to the consistent application of existing laws, not whether or not a law (and the penalties for breaking it) are stricter in some countries than they are in others. The spirit of 'rule of law' is that laws are applied consistently, and do not privilege particular individuals or groups over others. Your example of Singapore has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of rule of law.

You are also not an expert in child psychology. I'll tell you who is: An Australian expert who has strongly argued that the police questioning of the alleged victims was entirely inappropriate and used leading and suggestive questions. Of course, the prosecution manipulated it so she could not provide evidence. There is a whole host of psychological literature to support the phenonenon of children actually believing they have been abused through suggestive questioning. This last reason, by itself, and amongst others, would have this case thrown out of any court system in the developed world.

A final word. There is a significant distinction between the presumption of innocence and a fair trial. What people are outraged by is that proper procedures have not been followed - even by Indonesian standards. On the basis of the evidence we have been furnished with through the public record, as well as what we know of the prodecures that have been followed, there is almost zero chance that this would have resulted in a conviction in a reputable court system.
hallier
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:54 am

Re: Neil Bantlemann Guilty!!

Post by hallier »

Thx to AuntieSocial for the post.

PsyGuy's - try to get the facts right.

You say that the other medical testimony was paid for by the defence. This is untrue.

The parents went to these different doctors. The medical examinations were requested by them, not the defence. In fact, the treatment was requested by the them, and the diagnoses received, before any accusations were made against the 2 teachers.

It can only be assumed that she 'doctor-shopped' because she wanted a particular diagnosis - which she only got when she went to the police hospital.

When the Ambassador refers to a "lack of credible evidence against the teachers" and that "in light of this, we are deeply disappointed by the outcome" it can hardly be described as "a poignant statement and remark of the Indonesian judicial system" but as clear a declaration as diplomats can possibly give about the innocence of the accused. They were found guilty. He stated that we are deeply disappointed by the outcome.

Your efforts to justify the "magic stone" story is really quite exemplary. You'd have been an exceptional high school debater.

However, the judge (and the prosecution) did not refer to the "magic stone" as a mythical, imaginary, object. They referred to it as something that was real - that actually exists. It is a shame they did not get you on their team, because your explanation of the boys' coming up with this 'stone' story is far better than their one, where the stone is real and was actually inserted into the children to deaden the pain, and was not produced in court because Neil made it disappear. I think this is one thing the US Ambassador was thinking of when he spoke of the "lack of credible evidence."

You did get one fact right - as of now, they are convicted child sex offenders. However, that has never been debated - what has been debated is the fairness of the trial and the legitimacy of the verdict.

And it's not a game for me. It is a tragedy.
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