What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
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bludgeoned again
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:02 am
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
Thank you Psyguy. I and most of my classmates from last years BKK cohort of the University of Nottingham PGCEi course were and are teaching in international schools all over Asia. For some schools they require a PGCE in addition to a (UK) B of Ed. I had many on my course that were veteran teachers from the UK with a B Ed but they needed a PGCE and arrived in BKK for the U of N program. Plus it's 60 credits toward a masters.
Discussion
@bludgeoned again
I agree, mid and upper tier ISs want proper PGCEs and/or QTS, in the case of the LW she is targeting lower tier schools, which a PGCEi is certainly marketable and qualifies.
Sunderland and Keele have also added distance PGCE type qualification programs and their utility and recognition has grown in IE. The qualification of QTS has become a moot point with their acceptance and recognition for reciprocity in western jurisdictions. Im currently waiting for some feedback regarding a PGCEi applicant to B.C. Canada.
Its a very good value for a years worth of credits, as long as the market acceptance and regulatory recognition are there.
I agree, mid and upper tier ISs want proper PGCEs and/or QTS, in the case of the LW she is targeting lower tier schools, which a PGCEi is certainly marketable and qualifies.
Sunderland and Keele have also added distance PGCE type qualification programs and their utility and recognition has grown in IE. The qualification of QTS has become a moot point with their acceptance and recognition for reciprocity in western jurisdictions. Im currently waiting for some feedback regarding a PGCEi applicant to B.C. Canada.
Its a very good value for a years worth of credits, as long as the market acceptance and regulatory recognition are there.
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
Well, I don't know where you were bludgeoned, but it was done pretty well. Which of the following words - from Nottingham's own website - needs elaboration? "This PGCEi does not therefore offer a licence to teach in the UK or elsewhere."
And where did you get the idea that a UK teacher with a B. Ed. needs a PGCE? The B. Ed. is the qualifier in itself. The PGCE is geared toward those who graduate with a B.A. or BSc. No one "needs" a PGCEi, because it acts to enhance a resume. I'm not saying it's worthless, but it doesn't do what many people think it does, which is qualify them to teach. Of course, "international" schools in parts of the world where authorities aren't au fait with the distinction between PGCEi and PGCE may be able to hire teachers on the strength of the Nottingham qualification, but don't think that this will work everywhere.
And where did you get the idea that a UK teacher with a B. Ed. needs a PGCE? The B. Ed. is the qualifier in itself. The PGCE is geared toward those who graduate with a B.A. or BSc. No one "needs" a PGCEi, because it acts to enhance a resume. I'm not saying it's worthless, but it doesn't do what many people think it does, which is qualify them to teach. Of course, "international" schools in parts of the world where authorities aren't au fait with the distinction between PGCEi and PGCE may be able to hire teachers on the strength of the Nottingham qualification, but don't think that this will work everywhere.
Discussion
The elaboration required is the one that allows the Teachers College, DfE, or any other UK ministry, executive office or division to dictate regulatory standards for jurisdictions outside GB.
The idea that one would need more than a B.Ed is again enshrouded in the concept that England, GB, and the UK do not get to dictate professional requirements or standards outside of their respective jurisdictions and region, that while a B.Ed is suitable for professional qualification WITHIN the UK outside regulatory authorities, accrediting bodies and IS policy have different requirements that often specify a PGCE and/or QTS
It does what the majority of people says it does, the issue is one of utility and marketability if it does what people believe it does then the perception is the reality. In which cases it works exceptionally well and is highly marketable at lower tier schools. With the increased opportunity to add QTS through induction at a much larger number of overseas British schools (since you have to do induction regardless to get full QTS) it is at worst a preliminary qualification, that gets you hired, gets you experience, builds your resume and makes you a professional educator.
The idea that one would need more than a B.Ed is again enshrouded in the concept that England, GB, and the UK do not get to dictate professional requirements or standards outside of their respective jurisdictions and region, that while a B.Ed is suitable for professional qualification WITHIN the UK outside regulatory authorities, accrediting bodies and IS policy have different requirements that often specify a PGCE and/or QTS
It does what the majority of people says it does, the issue is one of utility and marketability if it does what people believe it does then the perception is the reality. In which cases it works exceptionally well and is highly marketable at lower tier schools. With the increased opportunity to add QTS through induction at a much larger number of overseas British schools (since you have to do induction regardless to get full QTS) it is at worst a preliminary qualification, that gets you hired, gets you experience, builds your resume and makes you a professional educator.
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
Rawr, it's getting catty up in here! Heck, Walter, I'm from Texas and I bet I can focus my eyes on a printed page for a whole ten minutes. Sign me up!
Seriously, though, thanks PsyGuy. I am aware that you've made it plenty clear that the PCGEi is not the same as a teacher cert, so I'm not sure why anyone would say you're misleading me. I do know that Peace Corps service can get you a CA cert, and yes, I do qualify for that. I was put off because I didn't want to spend the 2 years teaching in CA that I'd need to clear the preliminary credential, but I hadn't thought about the possibility of transferring it to another state to bypass that requirement. I'll need to look into the reciprocity with Hawaii or D.C. that you suggest, and see if that seems viable. I'll also see if I can verify the idea of getting a PGCEi converted to a US cert through D.C. Not saying I doubt you, but I want to see if I can contact any of those states and confirm that one of these plans will work.
The PGCEi sounds like a useful program no matter what, just in terms of knowledge and skills. Ultimately, though, my main goal here is to have a US teaching certification, preferably with a minimum price tag, and ideally without needing to return to the States. I appreciate the discussion about different routes that might be options for me, and I'll definitely be looking into these ideas further. @bludgeoned again, I really appreciate your input, as well.
Seriously, though, thanks PsyGuy. I am aware that you've made it plenty clear that the PCGEi is not the same as a teacher cert, so I'm not sure why anyone would say you're misleading me. I do know that Peace Corps service can get you a CA cert, and yes, I do qualify for that. I was put off because I didn't want to spend the 2 years teaching in CA that I'd need to clear the preliminary credential, but I hadn't thought about the possibility of transferring it to another state to bypass that requirement. I'll need to look into the reciprocity with Hawaii or D.C. that you suggest, and see if that seems viable. I'll also see if I can verify the idea of getting a PGCEi converted to a US cert through D.C. Not saying I doubt you, but I want to see if I can contact any of those states and confirm that one of these plans will work.
The PGCEi sounds like a useful program no matter what, just in terms of knowledge and skills. Ultimately, though, my main goal here is to have a US teaching certification, preferably with a minimum price tag, and ideally without needing to return to the States. I appreciate the discussion about different routes that might be options for me, and I'll definitely be looking into these ideas further. @bludgeoned again, I really appreciate your input, as well.
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
@psyguy
There ARE online induction programs to clear your CA credential. SDSU, UCLA...
@leipanga
You do not have to live in CA to clear your credential in CA. Yes the majority of the induction programs offered through the Universities require in state teaching, but some do not and SDSU is online as is UCLA. UCLA offers three tracks for teachers to clear their credential. One of those tracks is for out of state AND out of country teachers. It is all online.
I'm not sure what additional requirements you might have to apply in CA as I think you mentioned a link with peace corp/CA. There are a number of mandatory courses for teaching ESL to receive a BCLAD cert (now embedded in the credentia if coursework is completed) and we all have to pass the RICA exam for teaching reading/writing. It's hoop jumping & $! These requirements are about to change again though based on some rumblings back in CA. seems like every ten years or so they add more crap to take/complete so if you're remotely interested in clearing it via CA, now may be a good time. Renewing is not rocket science, take your PD courses (IS schools make this pretty easy AND you can do any CA required ones online), send in your fees and you're renewed.
There ARE online induction programs to clear your CA credential. SDSU, UCLA...
@leipanga
You do not have to live in CA to clear your credential in CA. Yes the majority of the induction programs offered through the Universities require in state teaching, but some do not and SDSU is online as is UCLA. UCLA offers three tracks for teachers to clear their credential. One of those tracks is for out of state AND out of country teachers. It is all online.
I'm not sure what additional requirements you might have to apply in CA as I think you mentioned a link with peace corp/CA. There are a number of mandatory courses for teaching ESL to receive a BCLAD cert (now embedded in the credentia if coursework is completed) and we all have to pass the RICA exam for teaching reading/writing. It's hoop jumping & $! These requirements are about to change again though based on some rumblings back in CA. seems like every ten years or so they add more crap to take/complete so if you're remotely interested in clearing it via CA, now may be a good time. Renewing is not rocket science, take your PD courses (IS schools make this pretty easy AND you can do any CA required ones online), send in your fees and you're renewed.
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
@Basmad6 Oh wow, there ARE online-only options! Thank you for pointing that out. Here's the info on the Peace Corps preliminary CA cert, in case you're interested or any other returned Peace Corps vols see this thread: http://www.ctc.ca.gov/credentials/leaflets/cl535.pdf. It looks like the required CA tests are offered at the Pearson Vue center here in Seoul, so I wouldn't have to travel to take them. I'm looking through all the $ and hoop-jumping, as you say, and it's a little bewildering, but that does seem like another strong option for me to consider. Time to make an Excel spreadsheet to compare all this!
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
Exams are fairly easy but taking any standardized exam is annoying. CBST is easy, CSET sub tests are not difficult with brushing up on 4-8th grade curriculum and then the RICA is the one some folks have struggled with. It's an all or nothing exam (CSET are sub tests) and it's very heavy on academic vocab, theory and applying skills to case studies. Passable for sure, but more intensive for studying.
Good luck in whatever path you choose! Lots of things to consider, but im sure you'll find the right program for you!
Good luck in whatever path you choose! Lots of things to consider, but im sure you'll find the right program for you!
Discussion
@Basmad6
Thank you for that information, I have spent some time investigating the viability of the two programs and have concluded some serious restrictions with one the programs (SDSU), but options with limits are still better than no options at all.
CA no longer requires PD to renew a CLEAR certificate, in the past it was 150 hours but that is no longer a requirement.
@leipanga
I contacted both UCLA and SDSU to discuss their respective programs for induction. The UCLA program is certainly a viable option for an IT, you could do it overseas without support or cooperation of an IS, at a cost for the program of around $8K (fees, tests, etc). At that price structure the teach ready program and the UCLA program are comparable.
The SDSU comes in at a much lower price point of $3300, which would be great but its not a viable option for an IT the program requires working/employment in a CA school system. The program was intended for working CA teachers who wanted a full online program do to location and travel. It isnt intended for ITs overseas.
I would advise speed. The CA preliminary credential has a very low barrier to entry. Its 2 days work (getting your fingerprints is a day, and a day making phone calls, completing the application, and posting them) and $150 plus the cost of rolling the finger prints, and that gives you 5 years as a licensed teacher with time to explore options. A lot can happen in education in 5 years.
In Hawaii the law was recently changed an applicant for a standard teaching certificate will require 3 years of teaching experience, that law doesnt go into effect until 1 July, 2015. This is April, you have to request the fingerprint cards, wait to get them, and then mail the entire application packet to CTC, they will take about 4-6 weeks to process it (closer to 6 weeks, since your prints have to be scanned manually) thats about 2 months and puts you in June. At that point as soon as your CA preliminary certificate is issued you can print a copy of that and the application and send that to Hawaii. If all goes well on the timing youll have a result/evaluation back from the Hawaii (HTSB) on what certification you qualify for. If its a standard certification youre done, you can apply for QTS and then transfer the Hawaii certification anywhere in the US.
When you receive the CA preliminary certificate apply for QTS in the UK, it takes 15 minutes for the application and its free. They may well issue you full QTS at that point.
At that point your going to have some decisions to make. DC is really hurting for teachers but their credentialing methods essentially have one pathway for reciprocity, you have to have a credential and complete DC testing requirements. They just wont be able to tell you with any guarantee if and what you are eligible for. The individuals who supply customer service (answer the phones) are not the ones who do the credentialing evaluations. I do know teachers who applied with CA preliminary credentials who were issued level II (standard) D.C. certifications. I also have heard of those who werent. I know D.C has issued its standard certificate to those with a PGCEi, I know one teacher with a PGCE from BK who was rejected. Really though, someone would have to be having a really bad day to not approve a D.C. standard teacher certification. Their reciprocity philosophy is centered around answering "yes" to 2 essential questions: (1) Are you certified somewhere? (2) Have you passed the relevant tests? Its about $500 for the D.C. tests and application (plus the background check). The test are pretty valuable in on themselves, they are used in significant number of states either completely or partially when applying for certification reciprocity.
At that point you can decide whether to continue with CA induction and getting the CLEAR certificate or pursuing the FL Teach Ready Program, or completing a PGCEi, since those pathways are going to be far more resource (time and financial).
It is possible to apply for a CA CLEAR credential through reciprocity once your CA preliminary certificate expires.
UPDATE: An earlier version of this post reflected inaccurate information regarding the cost of the UCLA program, the previous version quoted the cost of a full course.
Thank you for that information, I have spent some time investigating the viability of the two programs and have concluded some serious restrictions with one the programs (SDSU), but options with limits are still better than no options at all.
CA no longer requires PD to renew a CLEAR certificate, in the past it was 150 hours but that is no longer a requirement.
@leipanga
I contacted both UCLA and SDSU to discuss their respective programs for induction. The UCLA program is certainly a viable option for an IT, you could do it overseas without support or cooperation of an IS, at a cost for the program of around $8K (fees, tests, etc). At that price structure the teach ready program and the UCLA program are comparable.
The SDSU comes in at a much lower price point of $3300, which would be great but its not a viable option for an IT the program requires working/employment in a CA school system. The program was intended for working CA teachers who wanted a full online program do to location and travel. It isnt intended for ITs overseas.
I would advise speed. The CA preliminary credential has a very low barrier to entry. Its 2 days work (getting your fingerprints is a day, and a day making phone calls, completing the application, and posting them) and $150 plus the cost of rolling the finger prints, and that gives you 5 years as a licensed teacher with time to explore options. A lot can happen in education in 5 years.
In Hawaii the law was recently changed an applicant for a standard teaching certificate will require 3 years of teaching experience, that law doesnt go into effect until 1 July, 2015. This is April, you have to request the fingerprint cards, wait to get them, and then mail the entire application packet to CTC, they will take about 4-6 weeks to process it (closer to 6 weeks, since your prints have to be scanned manually) thats about 2 months and puts you in June. At that point as soon as your CA preliminary certificate is issued you can print a copy of that and the application and send that to Hawaii. If all goes well on the timing youll have a result/evaluation back from the Hawaii (HTSB) on what certification you qualify for. If its a standard certification youre done, you can apply for QTS and then transfer the Hawaii certification anywhere in the US.
When you receive the CA preliminary certificate apply for QTS in the UK, it takes 15 minutes for the application and its free. They may well issue you full QTS at that point.
At that point your going to have some decisions to make. DC is really hurting for teachers but their credentialing methods essentially have one pathway for reciprocity, you have to have a credential and complete DC testing requirements. They just wont be able to tell you with any guarantee if and what you are eligible for. The individuals who supply customer service (answer the phones) are not the ones who do the credentialing evaluations. I do know teachers who applied with CA preliminary credentials who were issued level II (standard) D.C. certifications. I also have heard of those who werent. I know D.C has issued its standard certificate to those with a PGCEi, I know one teacher with a PGCE from BK who was rejected. Really though, someone would have to be having a really bad day to not approve a D.C. standard teacher certification. Their reciprocity philosophy is centered around answering "yes" to 2 essential questions: (1) Are you certified somewhere? (2) Have you passed the relevant tests? Its about $500 for the D.C. tests and application (plus the background check). The test are pretty valuable in on themselves, they are used in significant number of states either completely or partially when applying for certification reciprocity.
At that point you can decide whether to continue with CA induction and getting the CLEAR certificate or pursuing the FL Teach Ready Program, or completing a PGCEi, since those pathways are going to be far more resource (time and financial).
It is possible to apply for a CA CLEAR credential through reciprocity once your CA preliminary certificate expires.
UPDATE: An earlier version of this post reflected inaccurate information regarding the cost of the UCLA program, the previous version quoted the cost of a full course.
Last edited by PsyGuy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
Not sure where the quote of $14k is coming from. It's as quick as a 10m program (standard track:out of state/country) coming in under $7k and while it's about double what other induction programs cost, if your school district doesn't pay BTSA or induction program fees you're stuck paying them anyway. This is becoming a common trend. Clear and fast track through UCLA are both under $5k (total for 3 quarters).
Perhaps you were quoted for the actual credential program which would easily cost $14-$25k depending on the school (state/UC/private) but that's a 2-3yr process while paying graduate fees.
@leipanga you are welcome to PM me for more info as I've jumped through the CA hoops. Can also forward you the info you may need. I can connect you to colleagues who went through a variety of induction/clear program routes for CA.
As you mentioned you can do all of the exams from your location in Korea. Lots to think about for sure and glad to give you relevant info.
Perhaps you were quoted for the actual credential program which would easily cost $14-$25k depending on the school (state/UC/private) but that's a 2-3yr process while paying graduate fees.
@leipanga you are welcome to PM me for more info as I've jumped through the CA hoops. Can also forward you the info you may need. I can connect you to colleagues who went through a variety of induction/clear program routes for CA.
As you mentioned you can do all of the exams from your location in Korea. Lots to think about for sure and glad to give you relevant info.
Response
@Basmad6
You are indeed correct. The representative I talked with likely assumed I was referring to an international student seeking a full program which at UCLA is about $14,700USD. An email response (from the certification officer) I received included the appropriate costs for the CLEAR ($4,200) , standard ($6,700), and fast track ($4,800) induction programs (program fees only).
You are indeed correct. The representative I talked with likely assumed I was referring to an international student seeking a full program which at UCLA is about $14,700USD. An email response (from the certification officer) I received included the appropriate costs for the CLEAR ($4,200) , standard ($6,700), and fast track ($4,800) induction programs (program fees only).
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
The iPGCE will get you into lots of schools worldwide of varying quality
Re: What's it like at the bottom of the barrel?
@PsyGuy, thank you so much for assembling all of that information. After considering everything, I decided that getting my CA preliminary credential is the best choice. I've already requested the forms I need. Like you suggest, I'll try to use that for a Hawaii certification before they institute that new rule, and I'll have to do a little more research on DC certification and possibly go for that. I don't know anything about QTS, but I'll take your advice on that, as well! I'm still seriously considering doing the UCLA induction program; obviously I'll have to if Hawaii or DC doesn't approve my preliminary cert, but regardless it could be valuable for me, in terms of looking good on paper and helping me develop. I'd say I'm a competent teacher with potential, but I could certainly use more training and experience. No matter what, having that preliminary cert in hand and five years to figure things out will really free up a lot of my options in terms of timing, applications, etc. I really appreciate your advice and effort in helping me!
@Basmad6, thank you! I've decided to apply for the CA preliminary credential and work from there. Not needing to leave Korea for the tests, and having a 5 year window to work things out, makes it seem like the best option for me. I've been researching online for a few weeks now trying to figure out how I should go about getting certified, and it's really exciting to find this route! I really appreciate your help and offer of advice. I will definitely PM you when I think of questions or need some guidance. Thanks!
@portico, thanks for that info. Since I have a leg up in California because of my Peace Corps service, I've decided to go that route, but the iPGCE does look like a really strong program.
@Basmad6, thank you! I've decided to apply for the CA preliminary credential and work from there. Not needing to leave Korea for the tests, and having a 5 year window to work things out, makes it seem like the best option for me. I've been researching online for a few weeks now trying to figure out how I should go about getting certified, and it's really exciting to find this route! I really appreciate your help and offer of advice. I will definitely PM you when I think of questions or need some guidance. Thanks!
@portico, thanks for that info. Since I have a leg up in California because of my Peace Corps service, I've decided to go that route, but the iPGCE does look like a really strong program.
Reply
@leipanga
That is a good call, I often advise the easiest, shortest, and least expensive route to certification. After you have gotten the preliminary CA certificate and applied for Hawaii license and QTS, you will be in a better position, with time, to explore your next step.
QTS is "Qualified Teacher Status", it is "THE" license for professional educators to practice in the UK. It is the equivalent to a state, provincial or territory license in the US, CAN, and AUS. If at any point or time int he above process you can get QTS then your done, since QTS is recognized throughout the States as a professional/standard teaching credential.
My advice for potential ITs is usually to pursue UK certification and QTS. The benefits of QTS is that it is essentially a "lifetime" teaching license/credential:
1) It does not expire
2) It does not require renewal
3) It does not require PD (Professional Development).
4) Its widely recognized
The US equivalent to QTS is a CA CLEAR Credential:
1) 5 year validity
2) Renewal costs are low ($70/credential)
3) Does not require PD
4) Is widely recognized
Where QTS is the gold ring for British schools CA (shared with NY) certification is the gold ring for American schools.
That said I would never wish CA "Induction" on anyone (I avoided Induction at all costs personally). It is one of the most painful educator training experiences in existence. Compared to induction in terms of costs, resources, time and effort Teach Ready is a preferred option.
That is a good call, I often advise the easiest, shortest, and least expensive route to certification. After you have gotten the preliminary CA certificate and applied for Hawaii license and QTS, you will be in a better position, with time, to explore your next step.
QTS is "Qualified Teacher Status", it is "THE" license for professional educators to practice in the UK. It is the equivalent to a state, provincial or territory license in the US, CAN, and AUS. If at any point or time int he above process you can get QTS then your done, since QTS is recognized throughout the States as a professional/standard teaching credential.
My advice for potential ITs is usually to pursue UK certification and QTS. The benefits of QTS is that it is essentially a "lifetime" teaching license/credential:
1) It does not expire
2) It does not require renewal
3) It does not require PD (Professional Development).
4) Its widely recognized
The US equivalent to QTS is a CA CLEAR Credential:
1) 5 year validity
2) Renewal costs are low ($70/credential)
3) Does not require PD
4) Is widely recognized
Where QTS is the gold ring for British schools CA (shared with NY) certification is the gold ring for American schools.
That said I would never wish CA "Induction" on anyone (I avoided Induction at all costs personally). It is one of the most painful educator training experiences in existence. Compared to induction in terms of costs, resources, time and effort Teach Ready is a preferred option.
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sophiamartin
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:24 pm
- Location: Mount Shasta, CA
Re: Response
PsyGuy wrote:
>
> So there are 3 tiers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then a sub group of the 1st tier
> the elite tier. The third tier is actually pretty big and there is a lot of
> difference in quality. Usually when we say "bottom tier" we mean
> those ISs that are really at the bottom of the 3rd tier. Some of the third
> tier ISs can be really rewarding experiences (floaters), and depending
> where you are (such as Switzerland) a third tier IS would still be
> wondrously glorious compared to what you would find a domestic
> public/regulated school.
Is there some way of getting a list of schools that would be considered "floaters" by most ITs? I'd like to look into these more.
>
> So there are 3 tiers, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then a sub group of the 1st tier
> the elite tier. The third tier is actually pretty big and there is a lot of
> difference in quality. Usually when we say "bottom tier" we mean
> those ISs that are really at the bottom of the 3rd tier. Some of the third
> tier ISs can be really rewarding experiences (floaters), and depending
> where you are (such as Switzerland) a third tier IS would still be
> wondrously glorious compared to what you would find a domestic
> public/regulated school.
Is there some way of getting a list of schools that would be considered "floaters" by most ITs? I'd like to look into these more.