Saudi: Yay or Nay? Why or why not?

[ShakHak]

I have several years living & teaching in the ME with the exception of the Kingdom, which I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. However, several friends, some of whom are single women, are being enticed by very generous compensation packages and they'd like some opinions. Can anyone with experience living/teaching there give some feedback?

[mamava]

Saudi is definitely much more restrictive than the rest of the ME. Everyone knows about no pork, no drinking, no movies, no nightlife and that's true. The prayer schedule and Islam runs the daily life and so everything revolves around the prayer schedule which is inconvenient and inefficient at times. Right now there is an uptick in tensions so things feel less settled, but it will go back down, I'm sure. The overall life here is very much in a bubble and very safe. The biggest pain for single females is that because you can't drive, you are relegated to taxis all the time. My school provides a monthly stipend for single women for taxis and most compounds run buses to groceries stores and other places in town on a regular basis, so that does help. The single woman I work with have no complaints about life in Saudi other than the things that we all complain about on and off. The dating pool, of course, is liable to be somewhat limited, if that's a factor for a single person.

[PsyGuy]

I agree with mamava, its a very, very restrictive environment. In addition, Saudi men can be very harassing to western woman. Your friends would have to understand that they are going for the money.

[mamava]

I have not seen or heard of harassment, although i suppose it might happen--I've usually found it the opposite, except around one area on weekend nights when the young guys cruise and will shout and catcall just about anyone. Usually I'm overlooked or ignored by being a woman, even by Saudi cashiers sometimes. One benefit of being a 2nd class citizen, though, it that often you get ushered to the front of a line. I've bypassed long lines at the airport, at some shops and other service places. Often if they see you alone, they'll move you to the front. It's a small benefit, but if the lines are 2+ hours long at passport control at the airport, I'll take the attitude of getting rid of me if it gets me to the front of the line!

[PsyGuy]

@mamava

We would greatly disagree. Ive had many reports of females receiving daily catcalling, verbal harassment, being grouped, and constantly hit on, in which many Saudi men seem not to have learned the meaning of no. In addition the Kingdom has one of the worst records of womans rights int eh world. A woman just got jailed in the Kingdom for "having an argument with a man", and this is a country where your considered married if you say "yes" too a proposal 3 times. Woman are jailed and executed for adultery just for being alone in a room with a man who is not a relative. The Kingdom doesnt allow woman to drive. Head scarves, Burkas, you cant dress the way you want. I could go on, and on, and on, and on. If your willing to tolerate being considered a second class citizen, property, or an object for the money, and only the money thats the only rational to go to the Kingdom.

[twimih]

I am a single female living in Saudi Arabia right now. Everything mamava says is spot on, completely true, and an excellent description of what it’s like for a single female western teacher here. What Psyguy says - well, I can’t even imagine who he is getting his information from. The Internet, probably. It's so frustrating to read things that are horribly one-sided by people who clearly have an agenda that's more important to them than the truth. I run around by myself regularly, never get hassled, am ignored until I make a little fuss, and then get helped quickly and respectfully. I, too, love getting ushered to the front of lines just because I’m female. What a change! I never cover my head and have seen increasing numbers of western women who dress modestly but are in public without an abaya. (I don’t go that far out of respect. Anyway, wearing a “house coat” when I go out is pretty darn comfortable! ) Burkas? No way. Women who wear burkas are few and far between, and clearly aren’t international teachers! I have plenty of single female friends here and have never heard of anyone getting hit on in the kingdom - in Bahrain while out drinking, yes. I feel safer here than anywhere else I’ve been, and very respected. I do believe it might be different for Asian women. Asians are not treated the same as Europeans and North Americans.

My issues with Saudi are different. It is boring. There is little to do out side of work. I’ve had wonderful experiences and have traveled within the country and am very grateful I had the chance. Some of those places are now off limits for westerners. But I’ve run out of things to do. You can find other expats with similar interests, but sometimes that pool is very small and can be disappointing. It becomes a matter of luck. I also don’t care for the “guest worker” mentality. I prefer to be appreciated because I am part of a local community, not just a specialist brought in to do a job. (That said, the Saudis I work with are very supportive and appreciative of everything I do - they are extremely kind.) And I prefer living somewhere my friends and extended family can come and visit. They can’t here.

[mamava]

Yes, Saudi is repressive and has a terrible record of human rights. Yes, woman are 2nd class citizens--although the statistics that women still earn 77 cents to a man's dollar makes me remember that women are not on completely equal footing in developed countries as well. No, we can't drive. EVERYONE knows that. I'm here right now and have been for 2 years--and what PsyGuy is describing in terms of male behavior I have not observed. I won't say it doesn't happen, but in the Eastern Province where I live, and in the places I've visited, that would not be what I've experienced. We didn't come here for the money, but we got what we needed and are moving on--part of the reason is, in fact, the culture of life here. It is very sterile and, for us, boring--and we're homebodies. I don't have to cover my head (although I have when I've had to visit government offices that rarely deal with Westerners out of respect and a desire to get whatever it was I came there for). Not driving is a pain, but not the end of the world. Honestly, the biggest irritant is having to coordinate around the prayer schedule which, when you're working, hits right at the best times to get things done. Come for the money. Come for the experience. Come to get a peek inside a country that many only judge from the outside. There are lots of reasons to come, and there are lots of reasons not to. But make sure you get information from sources that are accurate.

[Marz31]

Saudi isn't bad at all. I have been living here with my wife for he lady three years and have colleagues that have lived here for 10-15 years! We live on a compound that has all the essentials and extras and outside of the compounds is fine too. Yes you do get the occasional stares and it can be frustrating at times dealing with certain services but luckily out employers have a government liaison officer that deals with them. There isn't much "customer service" here which can be frustrating, simple gongs like opening a bank account seem so complicated! Saudi is good to make some serious money and people leave you alone. It's pretty chilled out lifestyle here, obviously it's nothing like Dubai or Bahrain, however it's not so bad. People keep talking about women being oppressed, I don't think my wife feels oppressed, yes she has to wear the abaya and no she can't drive a car, but that's just the way of the saudi law/customs which we just abide by. if your going to be a complainer and comparer of saudi to your western lifestyle then you won't enjoy living here. But frankly, it's not all that bad.

[PsyGuy]

At least there is some agreement on the boring issue. You realize that even as a western woman all the laws, rules and penalties that could happen to nationals could be applied to you. You may be treated with the soft touch, but there is nothing keeping you from be jailed or executed or otherwise punished no more than any other woman. Saying yes we know we cant drive doesnt make it more acceptable. Being restricted in what you can wear because your a woman doesnt make it anymore okay because of tradition. Cultural relativism is BS, its not okay to live to live in the 7th century just because a segment of the population wants too. Either your treated as a human being as all other human beings or your not the same human being.

Why do it all, the money, there isnt anything else.

[ShakHak]

Hmm, lots of good info to share with my friends & for them to sort through. Thanks for all the replies!

[Sherhazade]

Do be sure that they look into some of the blogs by women living there - I found helpful when researching Susie of Arabia, The Blue Abaya and Foreign Girl. The first two are westerns married to Saudi men and the last is the stay at home wife in an expat couple. I find the second two more straight forward for differences and addressing issues in a helpful way. There are others of course, I found some defunct ones that still had useful info.

I think that because you know exactly what you are up against you can mentally prepare for those big things like abaya's, prayer times, not driving, etc. You know, at least intellectually, what you are up against.

[Nomad68]

Regarding Saudi, you come for the money and make sure you get the best package possible, ideally with compound accommodation. You have to get compensated for what you have to put up with - the restricted lifestyle, the inflexible culture and general intolerance. Plus, increasingly the ME is becoming unstable and Saudi is no exception - as I write this the army is mobilized on the Yemen border and there have been attacks on the Iraqi border to the north.

I don't think it is a location you look at and say I'll do 5 or 10 years there. You work out how much you need to make, do your time and get out. If I didn't have to be here I wouldn't. If you have a trailing spouse (and small kids) it is ok as flights, visa and accommodation are provided. Being here as a singleton would be rough - single men have it rough, single women rougher still. Non-caucasians can expect racism and discrimination even if they are Muslim. I had a British Somali colleague who was a devout Muslim and our Saudi bosses still treated him terribly.

I would never recommend Saudi Arabia (or Kuwait, based on my wife's experiences there) as locations for your first ME experience - the UAE, Oman, and Qatar are 'easier' experiences.

[PsyGuy]

I concur with nomad68, particularly the point "you figure out how much you need, do your time and get out". You have to be a mercenary when going to the ME, its about the money, period.