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In name only. Hiring someone and giving them a title of "Learning Support" does not make an LS department or program. Its services and resources, not just a check mark on a list.

So if they don't have any SPED or learning support staff, they don't have a LS program. And, if they do hire a SPED or LS teacher, then they STILL don't have a SPED or LS program because they don't measure up to some subjective bar that you have set.

There is a word for that type of thinking, Denial.

Also, please remember that this whole conversation was started by someone asking about SPED/LS jobs in int'l schools, NOT by parents asking about comprehensive, US style/western quality, SPED/LS programs for their kids.

Can you at least admit that the job market for SPED/LS teachers reaches a little farther down the int'l school food chain than you originally thought?

@wrldtrvlr123

Are you seriously advocating the position that an LS/SEN department/program exists solely based on the presence of an LS/SEN staff member(s)?
Bottom tier "Poo IS" can hire a SPED teacher and give them a chair and then claim they have a LS/SEN Program or Department?
Would a chair and person meet your standard of being a "Learning Support Department"?

My inclination is that we disagree on the operational definition of terms in what constitutes a LS/SEN program.

A little deeper then some portion of tier two, sure there might be an air pocket or two in the third tier. I havent had experience or resources that would indicate I would call a LS/SEN program. My standards are nowhere near anything a domestic regulated or public school would be required to provide. Im referring to SPED lite programs in ISs, and weve had that conversation before, I posted it in the earlier thread what a SPED lite program looks like.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @wrldtrvlr123
>
> Are you seriously advocating the position that an LS/SEN department/program
> exists solely based on the presence of an LS/SEN staff member(s)?
> Bottom tier "Poo IS" can hire a SPED teacher and give them a
> chair and then claim they have a LS/SEN Program or Department?
> Would a chair and person meet your standard of being a "Learning
> Support Department"?
>
> My inclination is that we disagree on the operational definition of terms
> in what constitutes a LS/SEN program.
>
> A little deeper then some portion of tier two, sure there might be an air
> pocket or two in the third tier. I havent had experience or resources that
> would indicate I would call a LS/SEN program. My standards are nowhere near
> anything a domestic regulated or public school would be required to
> provide. Im referring to SPED lite programs in ISs, and weve had that
> conversation before, I posted it in the earlier thread what a SPED lite
> program looks like.
-------------
I'm saying that if a school hires LS staff (and actually attempts to find someone qualified and/or experienced in that field) then they have some type of LS program, even if it is a bare bones program. For LS teachers looking for job, it starts there. They can then decide if that bare bones program is for them.

@wrldtrvlr123

It appears the issue is that we disagree on a definition of what a LS/SEN program is.


Incidentally, I wrote nothing about having bones, I wrote you had a chair, I can teach with bones and dirt (Peace Corp).

PsyGuy wrote:
> @wrldtrvlr123
>
> It appears the issue is that we disagree on a definition of what a LS/SEN program
> is.
>
>
----------------------------------
Maybe, but that is really not relevant to the discussion. We have been discussing whether schools outside the upper tier are a likely source of jobs for SPED/LS teachers. It's obvious (or should be) that the answer is yes.

As for the definition of a SPED/LS program, you can define it anyway you want if it makes you feel better. The bottom line is that numbers of staff don't really signify the quality or effectiveness of a SPED/LS program other than the number zero (which signifies they definitely don't have one).

Do you think DoDDS schools have what you would admit is an actual SPED/LS program? What if the school only had one qualified SPED/LS teacher and a few TAs? Because that is the situation in many DoDDS schools.

@wrldtrvlr123

I do not agree, operational definitions of terms are very important. The answer is no, not significantly, a hoof print is a source of water in the desert, but on that alone you will still expire from dehydration.

Again I reject that position, significance is crucial, the absence of a void or vacuum is not the sole criteria of merit. A program like any system is more than any one element of that system, including the human component.

I'm sorry. Did you actually answer my question? In your mind/world/definition, does a typical smallish DoDDS high school have a learning support department? Even though they could very likely only have one qualified teacher and a few untrained/unqualified TAs?

The answer should be yes because with just those people you can service 20 to 30 students, offer one period of LS in the resource room every day and push into a significant number of classes to offer support for those students. That is an LS program. Not a comprehensive US style SPED program but still significant and potentially a worthy endeavor for aspiring int'l SPED educators. That is also what many, many int'l schools (including many 3rd tier schools) offer their students (although the quality will obviously vary widely) and that is why the job market for SPED/LS teachers is significantly wider than you keep insisting upon.

So, when the subject comes up again and you insist on responding with your unique views on the subject (i.e. misinformation), I will simply bump/link to this thread. I'm sure that will be a relief to those who are tired of our "discourse". Apologies to all. I'm out.

@wrldtrvlr123

Yes, size has nothing to do with it, we have 30 student elementary schools in DoDDS. It is personal, resources, and services. You dont have a resources room at many of those third tier ISs, you have a staff member, and a chair. DoDDS ont eh opposite end of the spectrum will have a resource room and if a students IEP requires it the USG will write a 6 figure check to meet the requirements of an IEP if it has to. Third tier IS wont do that. Your missing the resources and services criteria.

Your 20-30 students dont have a resource room at third tier IS. Those LS/SEN people have no classroom and the same work space cubicle that every other teacher has (this is in Europe). if they need space they probably can get a table in the library for a while. Professionals need tools, "pushing in" without tools is not providing services.